RSN capabilities

[Red]

At Euronaval 2010, ST Marine revealed a baseline LHD and what could be a probable replacement for the Endurance class LPD vessel. If RSN does acquire it, there could be some changes to the final design.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GEtV6gA23xk/TMiHrU2lVmI/AAAAAAAACjI/54qfKOSyPIU/s1600/P9150026+-+Copie.JPG

The current Endurance class LPDs are in thier mid life stage. However, RSN is not myopic to the limitations of a LPD and advantages of a LHD vessel. During the great Asian tsunami for instance, LHDs with more helicopter landing spots and the ability to embark LCACs* would be more helpful. RSN would probably need more seahawks flying over the South China Sea as well.

I would not be surprised if RSN sells 1-2 out of the current 4 endurance class ships for 1-2 LHDs. Im certain Thailand and the Phillipines will be more than interested. Not to mention directly bolstering the forces of ostensible allied or partner nations who would find it difficult financially to procure such vessels.

* Interestingly, RSN and ST Marine have been testing a LCAC. Here is the LCAC;
http://i47.tinypic.com/snman8.jpg

I have my own guess as per RSN's ambitions in the near term with these developments.

Edit: The designation of the ship by ST Marine is "Endurance 160" and not "Enforcer 160".

 

[deadman0513]

The LCAC shown is not in use anymore.
Another is being tested

 

[Red]

The LCAC shown is not in use anymore.
Another is being tested

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. I think It will certainly increase interoperability with USN and Aussie forces.

 

[Red]

Aft view of the Endurance 160. Typically RSN would require a lot of automation and reduced crew complement as far as possible and room for upgrades;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GEtV6gA23xk/TM1vfvoY_JI/AAAAAAAACmI/Jo8sjJE5xTE/s1600/P9150025.JPG

The eventual configuration should allow the ship to carry Chinooks, Super Pumas, Apache Longbows and UAVs as well as helicopters from Australia, US, New Zealand and other close nations.

RSN would probably give it a nondescript designation like "LST" again as in the case of the Endurance class ships.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

An equally likely acquisition for Victory class replacement. ST OPV.

With picture credit to Mike Columbaro...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GEtV6gA23xk/TM1vmceVbSI/AAAAAAAACmQ/drl-LZrH3mc/s1600/P9150147.JPG

Comes with helo pad in the aft. Provision for side hull launch of USV/RHIB. Beside apparent smoke stack looks like chaff launchers and possibly a mistral launcher just behind that. Mid-deck launch of harps in front of the stack and just below that, ASW torp launcher. Standard stealth bridge design probably arising from Formidable FFG tech transfer. And finally what looks like a 57mm gun in the forward deck.

 

[SGMilitary]

An equally likely acquisition for Victory class replacement. ST OPV.

With picture credit to Mike Columbaro...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GEtV6gA23xk/TM1vmceVbSI/AAAAAAAACmQ/drl-LZrH3mc/s1600/P9150147.JPG

Comes with helo pad in the aft. Provision for side hull launch of USV/RHIB. Beside apparent smoke stack looks like chaff launchers and possibly a mistral launcher just behind that. Mid-deck launch of harps in front of the stack and just below that, ASW torp launcher. Standard stealth bridge design probably arising from Formidable FFG tech transfer. And finally what looks like a 57mm gun in the forward deck.

I would like to add on that these stealth OPV will most likely replace the 11 PVs that RSN currently operate.
RSN will most likely procure an improve version of Formidable Frigate as replacement for MCV.
I do hope the RSN will operate 12 stealth frigates + 12 stealth opv + 6 submarines + 4 Endurance 160 LHD plus other vessels, MPA , RWAC etc.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I would like to add on that these stealth OPV will most likely replace the 11 PVs that RSN currently operate.
RSN will most likely procure an improve version of Formidable Frigate as replacement for MCV.
I do hope the RSN will operate 12 stealth frigates + 12 stealth opv + 6 submarines + 4 Endurance 160 LHD plus other vessels, MPA , RWAC etc.

Originally tot the capabilities are way too much for a fearless PV replacement (eg helo pad) but I agree it is a possibility. There is a 57m version minus helo deck that could be more likely.

4x LHDs is definitely overkill and unlikely. Even Australia who has a much bigger expeditionary requirement than SG won't be operating that many.

 

[swerve]

I do hope the RSN will operate 12 stealth frigates + 12 stealth opv + 6 submarines + 4 Endurance 160 LHD plus other vessels, MPA , RWAC etc.

That's a huge navy for a very small country. What's the justification for it?

 

[Red]

Originally tot the capabilities are way too much for a fearless PV replacement (eg helo pad) but I agree it is a possibility. There is a 57m version minus helo deck that could be more likely.

4x LHDs is definitely overkill and unlikely. Even Australia who has a much bigger expeditionary requirement than SG won't be operating that many.

I fully agree with Weasel that 4X LHDs are too much. RSN would probably get 1-2 Endurance 160s LHDs and we will probably have to sell 1-2 Endurance LPDs in the process. I note that there will be eager buyers given its track record and interest registered thus far.

As for the replacements for the Fearless class, I have a feeling that a helicopter landing pad with a small hangar would be there; not so much for helicopters per se but marine UAVs which I am absolutely certain RSN will deploy soon enough. They have been testing scan-eagles recently. In addition, it would indeed be handy to be able to embark and receive helicopters in exigencies though not necessarily having an indigenous helicopter on board . The ship does not look that big, about the same size as Malaysia's Mekos or a trifle smaller.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

That's a huge navy for a very small country. What's the justification for it?

Ex-navy chief as the minister of defence so higher allocation to navy.

But seriously, port activities was the lifeblood of the country. Sitting right smack on the world's busiest highway, protection of SLOC is a primary mission and embargo a real risk. Singapore literally survives on the import-export trade. Other than that, no real need.

 

[SGMilitary]

Ex-navy chief as the minister of defence so higher allocation to navy.

But seriously, port activities was the lifeblood of the country. Sitting right smack on the world's busiest highway, protection of SLOC is a primary mission and embargo a real risk. Singapore literally survives on the import-export trade. Other than that, no real need.

Thanks weasel. It does make sense for Singapore to have a balanced and capable navy that will be a strong deterent to potential agressors.

There is a report backdated 15 December that Singapore had issued an RFI from Lockheed Martin. The report mentioned that Singapore may procure 4-5 retired ex-USN P-3C Orion MPA.It was believed these aircraft will be undergoing extensive modernisation similar to Taiwan navy acquisition.

Does anyone have any update?

What about the plan purchase of additional 6 S-70B helicopters.
It was speculated that Singapore may procure NSM for these choppers and Formidable frigates.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

If the EDA purchase does happen, it will be reported here.

DSCA -- Excess Defense Articles

P-3s are highly effective. However, RSAF does operate Fokker-50s already so it may seem strange to be replacing 15 yr old a/c (F-50 IOC in Sep 1995) with 20+ yr old P-3s (production ended 1990) so I'm not so sure it will actually go ahead. This esp when the fokkers seem reliable.

EDA means the a/c comes relatively cheap but the systems and maintenance still yield $160+m per unit for Taiwan. No small sum for SG (if @ US$640+m for 4). Competing priorities eg F5 replacement might sink such a deal.

As for another 6 S-70s, there aren't any platforms to operate them currently. It might happen if the victory corvettes are replaced by helo capable platforms. However with a MLU underway for the corvettes, it could mean a longer wait.

 

[SGMilitary]

If the EDA purchase does happen, it will be reported here.

DSCA -- Excess Defense Articles

P-3s are highly effective. However, RSAF does operate Fokker-50s already so it may seem strange to be replacing 15 yr old a/c (F-50 IOC in Sep 1995) with 20+ yr old P-3s (production ended 1990) so I'm not so sure it will actually go ahead. This esp when the fokkers seem reliable.

EDA means the a/c comes relatively cheap but the systems and maintenance still yield $160+m per unit for Taiwan. No small sum for SG (if @ US$640+m for 4). Competing priorities eg F5 replacement might sink such a deal.

As for another 6 S-70s, there aren't any platforms to operate them currently. It might happen if the victory corvettes are replaced by helo capable platforms. However with a MLU underway for the corvettes, it could mean a longer wait.

Thanks for your input weasel

There were also report that an Israeli aviation company is exploring to convert G550 as an MPA platform. Will this be a better solution to replace the Fokker 50 MPA?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Thanks for your input weasel

There were also report that an Israeli aviation company is exploring to convert G550 as an MPA platform. Will this be a better solution to replace the Fokker 50 MPA?

Yup and G-550 avionics is based on the MPA suite.

If you look at the IAI MPA suite brochure, guess what plane is on the front...
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/36086.pdf

I wouldn't underestimate the Fokker 50 which has the APS-134 (same as P-3C) for radar maritime surveillance.

G550 was the competitor for the bams which was won by global hawk. But unmanned uavs do not need to be that size and may include the current hermes 450 or the upsized heron.

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) - Military Malat Maritime Solutions UAS Missions

What can possibly be gleaned from the P-3C RFI is that the focus is on ASW. Other than the proposed scaneagle, few UAVs can perform ASW surveillance effectively. Even the Fokkers do not have the kind of ASW surveillance capability that the P-3s possess. So maybe the P-3s could supplement the Fokkers rather than replace.

The alternative are the S-3 vikings. My comparison analysis for that can be found at milnuts.

 

[aussienscale]

Ex-navy chief as the minister of defence so higher allocation to navy.

But seriously, port activities was the lifeblood of the country. Sitting right smack on the world's busiest highway, protection of SLOC is a primary mission and embargo a real risk. Singapore literally survives on the import-export trade. Other than that, no real need.

Agree, Singapore are in a very unique position, look at a map and see where they are located !! Also to throw into the requirement have a good look at the Malaca Strait !! Busiest sea straight of the world, ad into that the pirates in the area (makes the somali's look like amateurs) and you have a very heavy requirement for self defence, piracy and SLOC senarios

 

[SGMilitary]

Agree, Singapore are in a very unique position, look at a map and see where they are located !! Also to throw into the requirement have a good look at the Malaca Strait !! Busiest sea straight of the world, ad into that the pirates in the area (makes the somali's look like amateurs) and you have a very heavy requirement for self defence, piracy and SLOC senarios

Dear Weasel,

Your input make logical sense but why cant they procured new platform such as G550 or

Global HAWK?

The IAI brochure bears similar resemblance to Fokker 50 MPA......

ARen't the RSN keen to procure S100 VTOL uav ?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Dear Weasel,

Your input make logical sense but why cant they procured new platform such as G550 or

Global HAWK?

The IAI brochure bears similar resemblance to Fokker 50 MPA......

ARen't the RSN keen to procure S100 VTOL uav ?

Possible but a lot of US surveillance platforms are designed for open ocean rather than littorals. Also price of global hawk has been deterring quite a fair bit of potential users. RSN/RSAF are keen on a lot of UAVs so I'd wait until they actually induct one to analyse.

The Fokkers are still useful. That's why officially at least, the word is that no one is intending to replace them (and there is a SLEP out there).... yet.

 

[Red]

Possible but a lot of US surveillance platforms are designed for open ocean rather than littorals. Also price of global hawk has been deterring quite a fair bit of potential users. RSN/RSAF are keen on a lot of UAVs so I'd wait until they actually induct one to analyse.

The Fokkers are still useful. That's why officially at least, the word is that no one is intending to replace them (and there is a SLEP out there).... yet.

I remembered what Teo Chee Hean(the minister of defence) said is that they are looking at a couple of options in regards to the replacement of the Fokkers, including possible upgrades. There is indeed room for upgrades.

I am interested in a maritime MPA version of the G550. There ought to be room enough for the same systems currently on board the Fokker 50s. But can the G550 carry more weapons? Seeing as such that the region is getting inundated with more and more submersibles and surface vessels, it could be a critical pre-requisite forcing the RSN to look at even bigger platforms.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I remembered what Teo Chee Hean(the minister of defence) said is that they are looking at a couple of options in regards to the replacement of the Fokkers, including possible upgrades. There is indeed room for upgrades.

I am interested in a maritime MPA version of the G550. There ought to be room enough for the same systems currently on board the Fokker 50s. But can the G550 carry more weapons? Seeing as such that the region is getting inundated with more and more submersibles and surface vessels, it could be a critical pre-requisite forcing the RSN to look at even bigger platforms.

I think UAVs are intended to be sensors and to send the data for processing elsewhere. That way, the UAV gets shot down = fairly cheap. Can afford more sensors/UAVs and due to less weight, each UAV gets more endurance. One of the biggest hurdles I would guess is sensor to processor range which might not be as big a hurdle for SG as the operational range isn't that great.

If an operator can control multiple UAVs (including on remote), then essentially the coverage would be expanded significantly.

I'm reading RSAF P-3C interest and now there's the ARTR upgrade for P-3Cs. BAMS as we know are designed to work with P-8s so I'm wondering is that where RSN is headed? On the other hand, the large expense esp associated with BAMS and P-8 would not be consistent with RSN practice to date. A lot of the anti-sub capabilities are based on sonobuoys and the RSN did not ascribe to a sonobuoy capability with its S-70s. I would have tot that would make sense to have if the RSAF/RSN was leaning towards P-3s.

I would expect the RSN to get price competitive quotes for its acquisitions so maybe the P-3s are intended as a cost-comparison for maybe a platform like the G-550 (but a manned version) or a Fokker upgrade. I could be wrong but I still think its still early to replace the Fokkers.

RSN = Republic of Singapore navy.

 

[Red]

Quotation from Singapore's Defence Minister 2011 budget speech:

Many of our acquisitions replace ageing 2nd Generation SAF systems that have served us well over the last 20 to 30 years. The Air Force will take delivery of the Heron 1 UAV in 2011 to replace the Searcher-class UAV that has been in service since the 1990s. The Heron 1's longer flight endurance and better surveillance capabilities will provide the SAF with superior battlefield situational awareness. The Air Force will also replace our 30-year old RAPIER air defence system with the new SPYDER-SR ground-based air defence system which can more effectively deal with the wider spectrum of current and future aerial threats. The Navy will begin designing a new class of vessels to replace our 2nd Generation Fearless-class patrol vessels. These patrol vessels have been in service since the 1990s and will be more than 20 years old by the time we replace them.

Hence, Singapore will be building new ships. I think they will be in the 1000-2000 ton class range. The trend over the years is that the RSN has been building bigger ships but with increased automation resulting in reduced manpower. The <450 ton Seawolf missile gun boats for instance were replaced by the 3200 ton Formidable frigates.