Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Perhaps the second Queen Elizabeth class carrier with a compliment of CATOBAR F-35 or super hornets already in service. perhaps the retired Harriers and the small aircraft carrier. Isn't RAAF too minusle compared to others in the neighbourhood like china, Japan and India.
See my previous comment on the ADF budget not being in a position to add additional capabilities beyond those already planned for. Also, there are entire threads about the impact adding a carrier into the RAN OrBat would have re: force structure and personnel reqs.

Not to mention other nations like India, China (PRC) and Japan are not exactly in Australia's "neighborhood", with the closest nation being several thousand km's away.

-Cheers
 

phreeky

Active Member
What do we need a carrier for? Is there anywhere we need to deploy way off the coast? Anywhere nearby and we can utilise bare bases. Besides once you send a carrier out wouldn't you need a bunch of support ships along with it, massively increasing costs too?

A carrier sounds "cool", but just doesn't make sense to me unless there is a clear need to project power.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Perhaps the second Queen Elizabeth class carrier with a compliment of CATOBAR F-35 or super hornets already in service. perhaps the retired Harriers and the small aircraft carrier. Isn't RAAF too minusle compared to others in the neighbourhood like china, Japan and India.
Look at the distances involved - those countries aren't in Australia's "neighbourhood".

Even if the RAN wanted a carrier (and they've got no intention of operating one at this point), they wouldn't have the cash or the crew to carry it off. And for that matter, there would have to be time, money and effort devoted to developing a doctrine for using the carrier, which if I'm recalling GF's info correctly, the RAN isn't doing and has no intention of doing. And after all this we'd have a sole carrier at sea some of the time, and couldn't actually guarantee it's availability at whatever time we needed it, because having one ship doesn't mean it's always out and roaming around the oceans - sometimes it needs refitting or maintenance (which as you can imagine takes quite some time for a vessel as large and complex as an aircraft carrier).
 

OpinionNoted

Banned Member
If needed would airliners be suitable for para trooper insertions?
Also as air to air refuelers and is it a time consuming job to convert an airliner to the tanker role?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
If needed would airliners be suitable for para trooper insertions?
Also as air to air refuelers and is it a time consuming job to convert an airliner to the tanker role?
Oh, one can jump from a back door of an airliner cabin, but an airliner would be a very poorly designed aircraft for a plane load of para troopers... The seats are barely sufficient for people to sit in them, in my opinion the seats are much too small and crowded, much less carrying weapons and backpacks, not to mention wearing chutes... They might be useful for several para troopers, but not a hundred... A civilian cargo airliner would probably be more useful, there is so many of them available why would one want to use a passenger airliner?

Airliners have been converted for tanking since the beginning of tanking... Even fighters can tank other fighters...
 

hairyman

Active Member
Are 5 tankers sufficient for the RAAF? Especially since the ones we are getting will be used for transport purposes as well. I would have thought 7 or 8 would have been a more likely number.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Are 5 tankers sufficient for the RAAF? Especially since the ones we are getting will be used for transport purposes as well. I would have thought 7 or 8 would have been a more likely number.
5 isn't enough, but we don't have a bottomless pit of money or resources. Especially nowadays...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
5 isn't enough, but we don't have a bottomless pit of money or resources. Especially nowadays...
Things could change, depending on whether the base price of the A330 moves up or down. IIRC one of the issues with increaing the size of the A330 MRTT fleet beyond the five contracted initially was the demand for A330 airframes, with long lead times due to orders placed by different nations and air/freight liners. Do to the world economic crunch, I would imagine that some of those orders have been either cancelled or postponed. Depending on what happens to the UK A330 tanker programme, there might be some tankers that Oz could buy into for bargain prices, perhaps.

OTOH, the ADF is not exactly flush with extra cash as a result of the economic crunch, government spending cuts and priority changes. More MRTTs would be good for the ADF to have, but the need/cost for the capability expansion needs to be weighed against other capability need/costs.

-Cheers
 

OpinionNoted

Banned Member
5 isn't enough, but we don't have a bottomless pit of money or resources. Especially nowadays...
In all honesty...if government is serious about utilizing current raaf fast jets to there full potential range wise and 5 tankers isnt enough,is it such a big ask to provide raaf with the funds for additional tankers to allow that...how many hornets can be fuelled and to what range from the aircraft that will be actually available from the 5 aircraft fleet.
 

OpinionNoted

Banned Member
. More MRTTs would be good for the ADF to have, but the need/cost for the capability expansion needs to be weighed against other capability need/costs.

-Cheers
Ok theres no imminent threat on the horizon now,but it would be more prudent to have the tanker/awac fleets at the required level to support fast jets now and not have to aquire them in an emergency or the period leading up to one,
Tankers and awacs are critical to raaf plans so aircraft inventories should reflect that.
Dont know if we need more awacs but suspect we do and extra tankers are a necessity and the capability improvements they bring to fast jets is more than enough to justify there aquisition costs sooner rather than latter.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
In all honesty...if government is serious about utilizing current raaf fast jets to there full potential range wise and 5 tankers isnt enough,is it such a big ask to provide raaf with the funds for additional tankers to allow that...how many hornets can be fuelled and to what range from the aircraft that will be actually available from the 5 aircraft fleet.
It can be, yes. Each dollar spent to purchase and operate additional tankers is going to be a dollar not spent in purchasing and operating other kit, or to pay personnel. At some point, decisions need to be made as to which service gets funding to cover acquisitions, operations and support.

While adding in an extra aircraft or two would likely not 'break the bank' it would not be free. The pricetag for a single new KC-30A would likely be upwards of A$200 mil. Unless Government is willing to provide supplemental funding to cover the purchase(s), it really is not going to happen.

Ok theres no imminent threat on the horizon now,but it would be more prudent to have the tanker/awac fleets at the required level to support fast jets now and not have to aquire them in an emergency or the period leading up to one,
Tankers and awacs are critical to raaf plans so aircraft inventories should reflect that.
Dont know if we need more awacs but suspect we do and extra tankers are a necessity and the capability improvements they bring to fast jets is more than enough to justify there aquisition costs sooner rather than latter.
Agreed, that is would be much better to have the capacity prior to some threat event occurring, or some similar crisis point. What has to be kept in mind though, is that if additional funding is poured into purchasing additional KC-30A's, funding for other capabilities is going to have to be reduced, or cut altogether. Having a fleet of perhaps 10-15 KC-30A's would provide the RAAF with a significant tanking and transport capability, extending the ADF's airlift a great deal and be a serious range/force multiplier for RAAF fastjets.

The downside is that sort of increase to the KC-30 fleet could conceivably cost the RAAF enough to preclude purchasing and operating the P-8 Poseidon. Which then leads to the question of which capability, at what level, is more important to the ADF? Is having a large MRTT fleet of greater value compared to operating long-ranged MPA? How about having the KC-30's in place of new APCs/IFVs for Army, or replenishment and fleet support vessels for the RAN? It still comes down to the fact that the ADF has to stay within the budget Government allocates to it.

-Cheers
 
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OpinionNoted

Banned Member
It can be, yes. Each dollar spent to purchase and operate additional tankers is going to be a dollar not spent in purchasing and operating other kit, or to pay personnel. At some point, decisions need to be made as to which service gets funding to cover acquisitions, operations and support.

While adding in an extra aircraft or two would likely not 'break the bank' it would not be free. The pricetag for a single new KC-30A would likely be upwards of A$200 mil. Unless Government is willing to provide supplemental funding to cover the purchase(s), it really is not going to happen.

-Cheers
True to the above.
The full complement of tankers and awacs should already be in service or in the process of.being so... even with present economic circumstances the extra money could and should be made available to get such a critical fleet up to the required numbers to support such critical national assets.

anyways making fuss over something that wont be addressed till future or ever...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OTOH, the ADF is not exactly flush with extra cash as a result of the economic crunch, government spending cuts and priority changes. More MRTTs would be good for the ADF to have, but the need/cost for the capability expansion needs to be weighed against other capability need/costs.

-Cheers
Money that is being saved due to exchange rate fortune is not going back into new gear. Its coming out of hide and used as part of the $20bn "enforced" savings

ie no new or additional gear - and in fact some is up for the chop
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Money that is being saved due to exchange rate fortune is not going back into new gear. Its coming out of hide and used as part of the $20bn "enforced" savings

ie no new or additional gear - and in fact some is up for the chop
The Public DCP update was released today. A few new things listed, but only in the context that they haven't been in the DCP before but were in the White Paper etc. Definitely nothing brand new, as you say...

Australian Government, Department of Defence - Stephen Smith MP
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Money that is being saved due to exchange rate fortune is not going back into new gear. Its coming out of hide and used as part of the $20bn "enforced" savings

ie no new or additional gear - and in fact some is up for the chop
What irkes me is the way the budget is being squeezed in such a deceptive way, I'm mean sure no surprise Politicians using spin, still due to a inattentive apathetic Australian population it will continue on until we can't do something we need to due to funding shortfalls.
 

SASWanabe

Member
hey guys i have been reading on other forums that the Su-34/35 were offered as a replacement for the F-111s but i cant find an actual source, can someone point me in the right direction?

if they were offered were any other A/C offered or considered?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
hey guys i have been reading on other forums that the Su-34/35 were offered as a replacement for the F-111s but i cant find an actual source, can someone point me in the right direction?

if they were offered were any other A/C offered or considered?
They were offered in 98 and were going to be flown in for Avalon. They failed accreditation and could not get permission to fly in.

Typhoon, Rafale and F-15 were offered IIRC, although I must confess to not remembering exactly which US planes were in the short selection.
 

HotCopper

New Member
Hi,

Just a quick question to the experts regarding the Super Hornets. Both No. 1 & No. 6 squadron (who previously operated the F-111) are receiving the supers. Considering the pilots in these squadrons are primarily trained for A2G missions wouldn't it make sense to man these planes with ace Hornet pilots (from No. 3,75,77) who are more adept at A2A. The supers are obviously superior to our legacy hornets and as such should/would be used in a first day of war knife fight. Seems a waste to man them with pilots who are not A2A experts?
 

SASWanabe

Member
when was the last time the RAAF engaged an enemy force in A2A? i would imagine the hornet pilots are just as A2G focused as the F-111 pilots
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi,

Just a quick question to the experts regarding the Super Hornets. Both No. 1 & No. 6 squadron (who previously operated the F-111) are receiving the supers. Considering the pilots in these squadrons are primarily trained for A2G missions wouldn't it make sense to man these planes with ace Hornet pilots (from No. 3,75,77) who are more adept at A2A. The supers are obviously superior to our legacy hornets and as such should/would be used in a first day of war knife fight. Seems a waste to man them with pilots who are not A2A experts?
It's to do with the tasking of the platform - they're replacing F-111s so in the event of a conflict they're going to be charged with the strike role. They have plenty of A2A utility, but that's not why we bought them, we bought them to maintain a modern strike capability. I don't have any doubts that the pilots of No. 1 and 6 Squadron will be quite capable of utilising the aircraft to its full capacity, however - learning how to fly/fight in a new aircraft is part of the process of developing a capability.
 
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