Women in Combat Arms

[Ray17]

There is a huge debate in India on this issue.

Could you all give your experiences and your opinions.

I would add that there are cultural differences.

What are the issues that defence forces have with women in uniform and serving side by side.

Are they billeted separately.

Is there sexual harassment?

If so, how so?

 

[Ray17]

Which all countries allow women to be in combat arms.

I don't mean Combat support or combat service support.

I am also interested to know which all countries allow combat support and combat service and their expierience.

Also the issue of sexual harrassment.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

The most compelling issue from my point of view is the physical issue. While females can be extremely physically fit, the average or even above-average female soldier can't match the average male in the military service. While this difference in physical potential may be of little importance in some branches it is vitally important in other MOSs.

For example, most women can't ruck the 100+ loads carried by airborne infantry, or grab, lift, and chamber the rounds fired by the M1 Abrams 120mm gun. These would thus be obstacle to women going infantry or armored.

However, one area where women serve today in many armed forces is aviation, and so in a way women have been fighting in combat for a while now, even if not in the Army.

 

[Waylander]

In Germany women are able to enter any unit they want to for some years now.
I have to say that I have no problems with them serving in any role they want to serve but there are also some problems.

- Different criterias for and women. While this may be ok in sports it is IMO totally unacceptable in the Army. The requirements and tasks of a soldier don't change just because it is a woman.

- A woman in the Army must not be touchy. While I have no problem with telling male soldiers that they should leave some of their stoneage behaviour behind one shouldn't forget that the majority of the soldiers is still compromised of a bunch of 20 year old boys with all the pros and cons of it.

In the end I have met some women in the Bundeswehr who I would like to have next to me if the shit hits the fan as well as some which were just useless. Combat arms seem to attract the first category. In the end not much different than with male comrades.
Some month ago I read an article about a female norwegian soldier who shredded Taliban with the 30mm of her CV9030. Their comrades where full of praise for her.

 

[swerve]

Good points here.

IMO, there should be no barriers to women being fighting soldiers, if that's what they want. But there should be no lowering of standards, or different standards. Set standards according to what you think is needed, & any women who meet those standards can enter - just as for firefighters.

Nothing wrong with reviewing standards to check if they're all appropriate, BTW.

 

[Spetsznaz]

Look, I don't care if you are a female, male or alien, if you can go out and kill people and manage the standard of at least an AVERAGE solider, you should be able to do what you want. This shouldn't even be a debate, sure some women have physical difficulty, but not everyone one, if they can pass basic training, i want them out there protecting me


PS: sorry I was gone from the forums so much, but i am really sick with the flu

 

[Gremlin29]

Women in combat arms pose more issues than the simple "if they can do it let em", which sounds great...at first.

For this to work in a way that offers a positive net gain for an armed force the following is what is required in my opinion, based on my experience:

1. Same uniform and grooming standards.
2. Same billet.
3. Same standards of performance.
4. All females non-exempt from compulsory service.

What exists in the US currently is:

1. Different uniform and grooming standards.
2. Seperate billets, the majority of which were not designed for such "segregation".
3. Dual standards exist far beyond the obvious physical fitness requirements. ALOT of valuable training time is wasted on sensitivity training, EEO issues etc.
4. If females are going to be treated equally in one area, they should be treated equally in all areas. If a country is not socially prepared to draft women for combat, they and more importantly the military members of said country are not socially prepared to put women on the front line either.

Allowing double standards of any kind to exist in the military is detrimental to esprit de corps which in turn lowers combat effectiveness. Allowing double standards to exist of any kind does not benefit the military, in any way, shape, or form. You can't be equal, and different at the same time.

 

[gremlin6969]

yes, so very true

I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I hate the fact that I cant get a buzzcut or a fade. It is so distracting to see women with hair especially buns god I hate buns, I also think Id look really awsome with a fade and Ive got alot of friends who wouldn't mind having a fade either I also hate the fact that us women have to get their hips measured if they are overweight. In my opinion, everyone should be neck and waist. They should separated all of the guys and gals who cant do 2 miles in less than 16min and everyone should be able to do at least 45 pu in 2min. Everyone who cant live up to those standards should be separated immediately. I am tired of all of those slow people who cant pass their pt test that I have to go around when I pass them, so annoying...uhg!! I also agree about the eeo part. If I want to make inuendos and suggestive remarks that should be my buisiness and people shouldn't be so uptight about it. This army has gotten so touchy feely with caring about people's well being and welfare, as if that mattered! If they get offended just separate them, failure to adapt and conform in my opinion.

 

[alkemita]

I'll preface my opinion with the disclaimer that I've never served in the armed forces, nor am I Indian.

I'm in agreement with the previous posters - I have no problem with women in combat roles, provided they can do the job (same goes for men - I'd never make it as an artilleryman, for instance).

As far as cultural issues go, by necessity the military has to operate under it's own cultural rules. I have to assume a professional military like India's will have rules about mutual respect for its members. Will there be harassment? Unfortunately, almost certainly yes. There's always going to be a few idiots who don't get it. The key is whether this kind of behavior is condoned explicitly or implicitly, and I'm sure it wouldn't be in the Indian Military.

 

[rip]

This all sound so enlightened and nice. Skip the feminist theory and go to the facts. The guys in the US fleet have had woman on combat ships for over twenty years and what happens? At the end of a six-month deployment, what percentage of the female crew is still on board their ship doing their jobs verses what percentage of the male crew is still on boar doing theirs? This is not counting the ones that get mysteriously pageant just before deployment and don’t go at all after getting the pre-deployment training they will then not use. And this is during a time when no one is shouting at them. Then they get undeserved shore duty with post-partum extensions. I am sure that there are many woman that do pull their wait and perform admirably but the percentage is too low to stake a personal policyfor the fleet on the performance of a few. There are a lot of woman out there trying to prove that they can do what men can do. But they are not very interested in proving that they can do it every time.

 

[riksavage]

This all sound so enlightened and nice. Skip the feminist theory and go to the facts. The guys in the US fleet have had woman on combat ships for over twenty years and what happens? At the end of a six-month deployment, what percentage of the female crew is still on board their ship doing their jobs verses what percentage of the male crew is still on boar doing theirs? This is not counting the ones that get mysteriously pageant just before deployment and don’t go at all after getting the pre-deployment training they will then not use. And this is during a time when no one is shouting at them. Then they get undeserved shore duty with post-partum extensions. I am sure that there are many woman that do pull their wait and perform admirably but the percentage is too low to stake a personal policyfor the fleet on the performance of a few. There are a lot of woman out there trying to prove that they can do what men can do. But they are not very interested in proving that they can do it every time.

The UK military carried out scientific tests based on 'cut and dry' parameters based around battle loads and endurance. Females simply could not carry the same load and keep up, so they continue to be banned from combat units, which require the soldier to yomp/tab with load and close & kill the enemy at close quarters. They do serve as medics and dog handlers in A-Stan which means they are right there in the front line.

Until we see the arrival of skeletal armour that equalizes everyone's strength then I can't see women serving in front line units unless in defensive positions, which does not require them to patrol for hours on end carrying 100lb loads. People often use the Israeli army as an example of women in combat, but they are typically based on home ground or in the occupied territories, they are not on overseas operations in hostile terrain living in austere and remote FOB's expected to patrol with full kit. Those women that are in a UK context (medics & dog handlers) exist in limited numbers and are not burdened with a full infantryman's load (webbing, ammo, grenades, mortar rounds, water and rations etc.).

In my opinion the issue is purely physically not one of gender.

In the US military (I think!) getting pregnant on an operational tour is a courtmartial offence these days, basically a self inflicted wound! The same must apply to an SSBN, if and when women are assigned in the future.

 

[EXSSBN2005]

In the US military (I think!) getting pregnant on an operational tour is a courtmartial offence these days, basically a self inflicted wound! The same must apply to an SSBN, if and when women are assigned in the future.

Sadly this is not the case as of 5 years ago (it maybe now but I wouldnt count on it), instead they get sent to a shore duty (which counts as sea time) (one EM1 on my boat had been at sea 17 years b/c the shore duty he wanted was constantly full of pregnant female electricians). If they get pregnant just before deployments (on subs we dont have the spare people for this) then they should be seperated and any retention bonuses that they got should be recouped as much as possiable. ( It was cheaper to make the attractive females in the nuclear engineering fields officers than to have them get pregnant while in the school or deployed, on the basis that officers are less likely to get pregnant just prior to underway and thus waste the millions of dollars it cost to train them for said deployments.) This is still kinda a sore subject for me and I have posted on it elsewhere here in the forums and on other forums so I'll just stop now vice going on about the pregnancys.

There should be no exceptions to being physically able to do your job ( like the ET3 who had to carry a step ladder around with her to reach some of the switches / valves in the prototype / land trainer in B. Spa) if you cant do it (or cant do it well) you shouldnt be there, this is the military not a playground for being politically correct.

 

[rip]

Sadly this is not the case as of 5 years ago (it maybe now but I wouldnt count on it), instead they get sent to a shore duty (which counts as sea time) (one EM1 on my boat had been at sea 17 years b/c the shore duty he wanted was constantly full of pregnant female electricians). If they get pregnant just before deployments (on subs we dont have the spare people for this) then they should be seperated and any retention bonuses that they got should be recouped as much as possiable. ( It was cheaper to make the attractive females in the nuclear engineering fields officers than to have them get pregnant while in the school or deployed, on the basis that officers are less likely to get pregnant just prior to underway and thus waste the millions of dollars it cost to train them for said deployments.) This is still kinda a sore subject for me and I have posted on it elsewhere here in the forums and on other forums so I'll just stop now vice going on about the pregnancys.

There should be no exceptions to being physically able to do your job ( like the ET3 who had to carry a step ladder around with her to reach some of the switches / valves in the prototype / land trainer in B. Spa) if you cant do it (or cant do it well) you shouldnt be there, this is the military not a playground for being politically correct.

There are many jobs in the navy where physical strength is not that important but dedication to you ship, your crew mates, and having a since of duty is. I was an EW on DDG’s and DLG’s and the only thing that was the least bit physically challenging was working up on the sticks when the ship was under way which didn’t happen that often. I do not think this is the main issue.
I think the problem with female crew on combat ships is a mental one. The job isn’t fun, it is hard, and it is often boring. Most, thou not all females, will look for ways to wiggle out of their responsibilities and think it is alright to do. Why, because they are unhappy. That is right, just because they are unhappy. Think of all the stupid things that woman do just for no other better reason than because they are unhappy. This is true everywhere in life not just within the military. If a guy lets down his mates, leaving them in a hard spot he will feel ashamed of his self for letting them down. You don't pick your shipmates and they didn't pick you but you are in this together and if you are any good at all, you will stick together and if others see you bugging out or slacking off they will belittle you, while losing their respect in the process.
The females on the other hand will feel justified when they bug out and the other females will feel sorry in sympathy and support them. That is one reason why most women have no sense of Honor. As for how they would behave in a naval fight I do not know. Modern Naval war is not like land war. There are few opportunities to be a hero and there are even fewer opportunities to be a coward. You work together as a team and live or you don’t and you die. The power of modern weapons is such that in a full up naval war there isn’t much left in-between. Something I personally have never experienced so as far as that goes I don’t even know for sure about how well I would behave, so I will not venture an opinion about that.

 

[UK_Army]

Very rare case that a woman are being abused in a military. In a case like this, every unit has their sexual harassment coordinators and the complaints are handled accordingly. Besides, women in combat are trained well so that they can defend themselves from all physical abuse.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Very rare case that a woman are being abused in a military. In a case like this, every unit has their sexual harassment coordinators and the complaints are handled accordingly. Besides, women in combat are trained well so that they can defend themselves from all physical abuse.

UK_Army, that isn't strictly true. Women in the modern military do struggle with rape and sexual harassment, especially while on deployment. The system in place exists because there's a serious problem.

rip, any solid evidence on your claims? You make a pretty radical point and I'm curious to know what you're basing it one.

 

[rip]

UK_Army, that isn't strictly true. Women in the modern military do struggle with rape and sexual harassment, especially while on deployment. The system in place exists because there's a serious problem.

rip, any solid evidence on your claims? You make a pretty radical point and I'm curious to know what you're basing it one.

I do not know how radical I am. If fact I am more of a traditional type probably out of step with the times i.e. preferring reality over theory. It has been a long time since I was in the Navy but I was there when the US Navy first started putting woman on ships. Not combat ships at first. It was the USS Hope a hospital ship they started out with up in San Francisco and though I was not stations on it, I was close and everyone including the male part of the crew of the USS Hope called it a floating Bordello. But that was a long time ago when they were just first trying it out so that observation may not be fair
.
When we talk about the Navy we have to make it clear which Navy we are talking about. I do not mean which county but which part of the US Navy you are taking about because the different parts can be quite different. There may not be great problems with female personal in many parts of the Navy. There doesn’t seem to be many problems with the shore based personal or in the positions that are like regular jobs everywhere except that you wear a uniform. But there is problems for those that go to sea in ships and not all of those problems are equally distributed.
The smaller the ship, the fewer the crew, the long the deployments, and the more specialized the skills needed to run the ship, the greater the problems. For instances there are fewer problems on Carriers (big ship/big crew) than on Cursers (Smaller ship/smaller crew). There are few problems In the Sea lift command (big ship/small crew) compared to Minesweepers (small ship/small crew). Where this pattern hits the hardest is in Guided missile Destroyers and Cursers. The tip of the spire as they say of the US Navy. Where you have small ships with little spare room inside them, relatively small crews for what they have to do, and so many specialties to run them that there is very little in the way of bacup personal wise.
As to my sources of information? Well I know and talk to the guys that are still in the Navy. I used to live in San Diego for a long time and even though I no longer now work in ships the Navy and the people living it have been a lifelong interest to me and will be until the day that I die. I am even willing a buy a guy a drink or two just to keep up on what is going on, talk across the backyard fence, and the like. Since I was at one time, one of them they can be quit frank as we swap our sea stories and this is what they say it is like.
The hardest part is not for the young sailor seeing the world for the first time but for the guy with ten or twelve years in, and he has spent 80% of this time at sea or in overhauls (which really, really, sucks by the way) or in shakedowns, RUFFTRY, or some such predeployment testing and training and his wife is going to divorce him if he can’t get shore duty but he keeps getting extended because the woman on board don’t or don’t stay deployed.

 

[dtleio]

:flamingIt is evil to let woman in combat, they should back to home,take care of kids and bring them up.
Losing a woman in the battle, one kid also lose a great mother together.
The WAR not welcome woman.

 

[jeffb]

:flamingIt is evil to let woman in combat, they should back to home,take care of kids and bring them up.
Losing a woman in the battle, one kid also lose a great mother together.
The WAR not welcome woman.

Although that's your opinion, that view really has no place in a modern society where everyone's rights should be respected, if someone chooses to serve that choice should be respected regardless of a minorities wishes to push their views on everyone.

 

[gf0012-aust]

:flamingIt is evil to let woman in combat, they should back to home,take care of kids and bring them up.
Losing a woman in the battle, one kid also lose a great mother together.
The WAR not welcome woman.

Perhaps you should look at converting your own countries recruiting policies first.... before criticising others....

besides, occupational or philosophical misogyny is not exactly welcome here....

 

[Bastian]

Although that's your opinion, that view really has no place in a modern society where everyone's rights should be respected, if someone chooses to serve that choice should be respected regardless of a minorities wishes to push their views on everyone.

But don't u think it's kinda low to use women in combat? We men are the warriors, we do all the the killings and battles for centuries. Besides, they're better in kitchen than in the army.