The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[1805]

Right now the 22s and 23's are getting old, and need replacing. What do you suggest we do with that situation?

Ian

Well the T22s are gone, I have already made my suggestion:

1, Sell 2 T45, ideally later ones so they are brand new, for £1bn. To get cash in now so we can get a carrier and some fixed wing aircraft back online for 2016. I don't like this but the carriers have got to be no 1 priority.

2, Replace the likely 8-10 T26 with 16 light frigates (average cost no more than £100m), of c2,500t with 1 x57mm, CAMM & 1 x Wildcat. Fitted for but not with: TAS, Phalanx, (or at least 8). These should be laid down at 1 every 2 years, to maintain a drumbeat over a c30 year lifecycle.

3, Build a multi role high end spec ship to combine the role of the T45/T26, (include a flexdeck) post 2026 to replace the last 4 T23. Lay down at about 1 every 3 years (so 2 under construction at anytime). Construction at this drumbeat can then be continued permanently, replacing the T45 and maintaining a high end force of c8 ships. If we get this right there is no reason this could not rise to c9-10 ships (post 2030).

This way we can avoid massive built from scratch projects, de-risking and spreading development costs. The same way car manufactures do it, every few years they introduce part of the model: engines, body shape, etc, but never a new car completely. This also pushes the high end ship post 2026-28, which removes it from the carrier/fixed wing acquisition path.

Ideally the RN must focus on underspending its allocated budget till a carrier is in service with fixed wing aircraft on it. Nothing should by done that puts this at risk. Remember we have Trident to get through aswell. Thats why the Rafale for PW approach would be useful as it ties the Government back into fixed wing aviation, and has the potential to be self funding.

 

[StobieWan]

Well the T22s are gone, I have already made my suggestion:

1, Sell 2 T45, ideally later ones so they are brand new, for £1bn. To get cash in now so we can get a carrier and some fixed wing aircraft back online for 2016. I don't like this but the carriers have got to be no 1 priority.

2, Replace the likely 8-10 T26 with 16 light frigates (average cost no more than £100m), of c2,500t with 1 x57mm, CAMM & 1 x Wildcat. Fitted for but not with: TAS, Phalanx, (or at least 8). These should be laid down at 1 every 2 years, to maintain a drumbeat over a c30 year lifecycle.

3, Build a multi role high end spec ship to combine the role of the T45/T26, (include a flexdeck) post 2026 to replace the last 4 T23. Lay down at about 1 every 3 years (so 2 under construction at anytime). Construction at this drumbeat can then be continued permanently, replacing the T45 and maintaining a high end force of c8 ships. If we get this right there is no reason this could not rise to c9-10 ships (post 2030).

This way we can avoid massive built from scratch projects, de-risking and spreading development costs. The same way car manufactures do it, every few years they introduce part of the model: engines, body shape, etc, but never a new car completely. This also pushes the high end ship post 2026-28, which removes it from the carrier/fixed wing acquisition path.

Ideally the RN must focus on underspending its allocated budget till a carrier is in service with fixed wing aircraft on it. Nothing should by done that puts this at risk. Remember we have Trident to get through aswell. Thats why the Rafale for PW approach would be useful as it ties the Government back into fixed wing aviation, and has the potential to be self funding.

Colour me perplexed but that leaves the RN with no surface anti shipping capability at all other than a single cannon per ship?

Neither will it have any ASW capability beyond helicopters ?

If you put those capabilities back in, you end up with Type 26 I should think?

Ian

 

[kev 99]

Unless you're building your light frigates in Korea or Eastern Europe you don't stand a chance of getting them for £100m.

 

[Repulse]

Unless you're building your light frigates in Korea or Eastern Europe you don't stand a chance of getting them for £100m.

Sadly that this probably true with the current practices. The BMT Venator was speculated to be around £100 mil, but unless built in large enough numbers would probably end up being £200 mil based on the way other projects have gone.

However, the fact is that UK shipbuilding must begin to compete and get their costs / processes in line with the global market. Surely a low tech Frigate would be the ideal project to push through some desperately needed changes. There would be few technology issues to hide behind.

 

[kev 99]

Sadly that this probably true with the current practices. The BMT Venator was speculated to be around £100 mil, but unless built in large enough numbers would probably end up being £200 mil based on the way other projects have gone.

However, the fact is that UK shipbuilding must begin to compete and get their costs / processes in line with the global market. Surely a low tech Frigate would be the ideal project to push through some desperately needed changes. There would be few technology issues to hide behind.

Sadly I think that a 'low tech frigate' that came in at that cost would be pretty useless for the RN's needs, it would almost certainly feature very modest sensors and armament and couldn't do ASW or AAW. About all it could do would be chase smugglers and pirates.

 

[1805]

Colour me perplexed but that leaves the RN with no surface anti shipping capability at all other than a single cannon per ship?

Neither will it have any ASW capability beyond helicopters ?

If you put those capabilities back in, you end up with Type 26 I should think?

Ian

You can cross deck, some Harpoon/TT from Type 23s for ships serving out of home waters, but realistically when is there going to be a target for a Harpoon. All the small craft should be dealt with by helicopters. For bigger targets air launched missiles.

These light frigates would carry few weapons other than 57mm/CAMM (maybe not even CAMM if it can be modular) in normal patrol duties. The key thing is they can do the ASW top tier if required (so TAS) and would be able to tackle a stray SSM fired from the shore (aka INS Hanit), so 57mm/Phalanx/CAMM when on foriegn stations.


Yes the multi role high end ship would be more capable than the T26, but you are only building 3-4 a decade.

 

[1805]

Sadly I think that a 'low tech frigate' that came in at that cost would be pretty useless for the RN's needs, it would almost certainly feature very modest sensors and armament and couldn't do ASW or AAW. About all it could do would be chase smugglers and pirates.

.

If you had 16 ships, 4 basically OPV spec (still a 57mm + Wildcat) but requiring a short refit to get up to spec. 4-6 fitted for but not with, requiring kit to be bolted on, and 6-8 with full spec.

The plan is to cross deck a lot of T23 kit anyway. Provide decent volume and start with an off the shelf design, let the yard build in a cost effective way (no shipping block around). I think they could get there, the cost of UK ships is not just the labour we restrict the suppliers. This size/cost has been the one area we have had export success and nothing will help this more than the RN buying them. Over 30 years I don't see why we couldn't build 24-30 ships (16 RN + exports); that creates so many efficiencies, it enable investment in the yards. Very importantly it align's the RN to job creation.

Even if its not £100m (as an average) we could get close.

 

[StobieWan]

Unless you're building your light frigates in Korea or Eastern Europe you don't stand a chance of getting them for £100m.

if you leave off CAMM/Artisan ?

Ian

 

[Repulse]

Sadly I think that a 'low tech frigate' that came in at that cost would be pretty useless for the RN's needs, it would almost certainly feature very modest sensors and armament and couldn't do ASW or AAW. About all it could do would be chase smugglers and pirates.

I disagree - firstly, this firgate would be in addition to the T45 and T26 who would perform the ASW and AAW role. Secondly, as long as the vessel has a hanger the addition of a helicopter like the Wildcat (not necessarily on a permenant basis) would expand the capabilities and allow it to fufill guardship roles. Build the new vessel so you can easily change the sensor fit (e.g. swappable masts etc) and allow it to be fitted for but not with CAAMs and even Harpoon. Basically, build a relatively solid vessel (maybe to civil maritime specs), kit it out lite but allow it to be upgraded when required.

 

[kev 99]

if you leave off CAMM/Artisan ?

Ian

I don't think we can get CAAM/Artisan at that price, unless we build bits of the ships abroad, if we left them off then maybe, but I if we did I can't see the point in having them, they would be only useful for chasing pirates and smugglers around and would be useless in a war.

 

[kev 99]

I disagree - firstly, this firgate would be in addition to the T45 and T26 who would perform the ASW and AAW role. Secondly, as long as the vessel has a hanger the addition of a helicopter like the Wildcat (not necessarily on a permenant basis) would expand the capabilities and allow it to fufill guardship roles. Build the new vessel so you can easily change the sensor fit (e.g. swappable masts etc) and allow it to be fitted for but not with CAAMs and even Harpoon. Basically, build a relatively solid vessel (maybe to civil maritime specs), kit it out lite but allow it to be upgraded when required.

1805 is certainly not stating this would be built in addition to T26, he wants it instead of.

swappable masts? I'm not sure how practical it would be to have your main radar on a semi permanent mast, has this been done before?

 

[StobieWan]

I disagree - firstly, this firgate would be in addition to the T45 and T26 who would perform the ASW and AAW role. Secondly, as long as the vessel has a hanger the addition of a helicopter like the Wildcat (not necessarily on a permenant basis) would expand the capabilities and allow it to fufill guardship roles. Build the new vessel so you can easily change the sensor fit (e.g. swappable masts etc) and allow it to be fitted for but not with CAAMs and even Harpoon. Basically, build a relatively solid vessel (maybe to civil maritime specs), kit it out lite but allow it to be upgraded when required.

The way I'm reading 1805's post is that this is *instead* of T26 - he's suggesting flogging off two of the Type 45's, replacing the type 23 and 22 fleet functions with this low end frigate and adding four hypothetical Type 83's in about 15 years.

So, no type 26, two less Type 45, no surface warfare capability and precious little ASW.

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

I don't think we can get CAAM/Artisan at that price, unless we build bits of the ships abroad, if we left them off then maybe, but I if we did I can't see the point in having them, they would be only useful for chasing pirates and smugglers around and would be useless in a war.

I think the trouble with this suggestion is that the hull is the cheap part, it's the systems that cost money. I can't see any point in having a large stock of low capability hulls.

Ian

 

[Repulse]

Sorry, I'm still an optimist and think that if we push the T26 back we could still get a light Frigate. Selling two T45 and replacing the T26 with light frigates would be a big mistake; you would never dare sail the carriers out of port!

I think trying to build the T26 when we are (hopefully) spending big cash on aircraft for the CVFs would be a mistake and would mean we end up with less overall. The economy will pick up and the balance between the forces will come back; everyone agrees that UK defence is skewed by Afghanistan.

1805 is certainly not stating this would be built in addition to T26, he wants it instead of.

swappable masts? I'm not sure how practical it would be to have your main radar on a semi permanent mast, has this been done before?

Not that I am aware, though the Thales i-mast is close: Integrated Mast Family, I-Mast100,I-Mast400, OPV, Holland Class, Non rotating Sensors, Topside Design

 

[StobieWan]

Sorry, I'm still an optimist and think that if we push the T26 back we could still get a light Frigate. Selling two T45 and replacing the T26 with light frigates would be a big mistake; you would never dare sail the carriers out of port!

I think trying to build the T26 when we are (hopefully) spending big cash on aircraft for the CVFs would be a mistake and would mean we end up with less overall. The economy will pick up and the balance between the forces will come back; everyone agrees that UK defence is skewed by Afghanistan.



Not that I am aware, though the Thales i-mast is close: Integrated Mast Family, I-Mast100,I-Mast400, OPV, Holland Class, Non rotating Sensors, Topside Design

First of class for the Type 26 is due to enter service early 2020 ish - which dovetails neatly with the carrier expenditure being done and dusted as near as I can tell.

Thing is, if we repeat the earlier approach with the Type 23 and float them out fitted for but not with some stuff, we could get something approaching a low cost hull and then increase the specification and capability over future ships, with the intention of adding extra capability back in over the life of the ship, perhaps with kit scavenged from ships paid off where needed.


A light general purpose frigate will not meet requirements.

Ian

 

[Repulse]

A light general purpose frigate will not meet requirements.

Ian

A light frigate will not meet the T26 requirement to replace the T23 in the ASW role, I agree. But, I am a firm believer that the RN should have a HI-LO mix. 18 hulls is not enough, even the army biased Chief of the Defence Staff seems to agree. However, we are not going to get more T26s than we have currently T23s. Therefore, we need to ensure that the first rate escorts are available to perform high end roles. A light frigate could easily cover the Carribean Guardship and anti-pirate ops off Africa. It would also probably be suitable for the Falklands role as well, given the right aircraft cover from MP, plus a lot more flag waving around the world.

 

[StobieWan]

A light frigate will not meet the T26 requirement to replace the T23 in the ASW role, I agree. But, I am a firm believer that the RN should have a HI-LO mix. 18 hulls is not enough, even the army biased Chief of the Defence Staff seems to agree. However, we are not going to get more T26s than we have currently T23s. Therefore, we need to ensure that the first rate escorts are available to perform high end roles. A light frigate could easily cover the Carribean Guardship and anti-pirate ops off Africa. It would also probably be suitable for the Falklands role as well, given the right aircraft cover from MP, plus a lot more flag waving around the world.

But under 1805's suggestion, this is all we'd get plus perhaps a follow on hypothetical Type 83.

We're not talking here about a low end addition, 1805 is suggesting (and I'm disagreeing) that we should scrap '26 and add numerous low end cheap frigates.

Ian

 

[Repulse]

But under 1805's suggestion, this is all we'd get plus perhaps a follow on hypothetical Type 83.

We're not talking here about a low end addition, 1805 is suggesting (and I'm disagreeing) that we should scrap '26 and add numerous low end cheap frigates.

Ian

I disagree also; and now will stop confusing the matter!

 

[StobieWan]

You can cross deck, some Harpoon/TT from Type 23s for ships serving out of home waters, but realistically when is there going to be a target for a Harpoon. All the small craft should be dealt with by helicopters. For bigger targets air launched missiles.

You need an organic surface warfare capability that extends past the range of the gun - every major navy and more than a few minor ones have been fielding anti shipping missiles for the last thirty or forty years - why be the odd one out? There's nothing worse than bringing a gun to a missile fight.

Ian

 

[1805]

But under 1805's suggestion, this is all we'd get plus perhaps a follow on hypothetical Type 83.

We're not talking here about a low end addition, 1805 is suggesting (and I'm disagreeing) that we should scrap '26 and add numerous low end cheap frigates.

Ian

To be clear I am suggesting we move to a high end dual role ASW/AA ship, yes in smaller numbers that the T26. Say 4 x T45 and 4 x T83. but eventually I would think the saving of one common design would enable c9-10 T83 supported by 16 light frigates.

Lets move away from any pretence of 12 x T26 + 6 x T45. Your solution will at best result in 16 hulls (6 x T45 + 10 T26) however this could easily slip to 8 x T26 so 14 hulls.

And you ignore the value of selling 2 x T45 for £1bn and getting a carrier back in for 2016. I wouldn't do it unless it agreed by the Government/Treasury, but if they are honest with them instead of sneaking 65,000t carriers past them, they might get a positive result.