SONAR and Whales

[EmperorNortonII]

The US Navy (among others) has developed active SONAR that is harmful to whales. Even the Navy admits this to an extent, although it does not stop them from using the SONAR. My questions- why can't the US Navy use SONAR at lower levels and/or at frequencies that are not harmful to whales? Why is active SONAR so important that it must be tested at great length, in places whales give birth, when it wasn't so important through most of the Cold War? Aren't there better ways of detecting enemy subs? Doesn't using active SONAR in the first place make one a target for passively-homing torpedoes?

Military Sonar May Give Whales the Bends, Study Says

 

[icelord]

The US Navy (among others) has developed active SONAR that is harmful to whales. Even the Navy admits this to an extent, although it does not stop them from using the SONAR. My questions- why can't the US Navy use SONAR at lower levels and/or at frequencies that are not harmful to whales? Why is active SONAR so important that it must be tested at great length, in places whales give birth, when it wasn't so important through most of the Cold War? Aren't there better ways of detecting enemy subs? Doesn't using active SONAR in the first place make one a target for passively-homing torpedoes?

Military Sonar May Give Whales the Bends, Study Says

Considering the increase in sales of submarines, and the use of them to transport illegal goods by drug Cartels, i dont see the USN stopping technology that would put them ahead of their possible enemies.
While the effect on marine life at times cannot be avoided, i have seen first hand US Navy crews do their utmost to stop harming whales. While on Anti-submarine Excercise a US DDG increased lookouts and scanned not for surface contacts, but for whales as their sonar was active. When on, they do everything they can to limit exposure to marine life, but you cant stop it all the time.
While environmentalists would see Low frequency as a negative, on the flip side it gives larger area to survey and search for enemy contacts. The distance between you and your enemy can be the difference between life and death for Submariners. When it comes down to it, USN will do what they can, but can only do so much when there is a bigger issue at stake. Whats the point of using Sonar in battle if you cant operate it in practice.

 

[gf0012-aust]

when it wasn't so important through most of the Cold War?

thats just plainly incorrect, apart from the fact that systems in use today are far more sophisticated than anything that was running in the 60's-90's.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

There are worse things than sonar... In the frequent poundings of submarine patrol area "Santa Maria" during the Falklands War (British intel was so good they not only knew the submarine patrol area but also its name…) the Royal Navy killed large numbers of whales with torpedos and depth charges. They never engaged the Argentine submarine San Luis which wisely spent most of the war sulking under the kelp in its box with a dysfunctional combat system. The whales on the other hand were in the thick of it and came off in a very poor second place.

 

[AegisFC]

Considering the increase in sales of submarines, and the use of them to transport illegal goods by drug Cartels, i dont see the USN stopping technology that would put them ahead of their possible enemies.
While the effect on marine life at times cannot be avoided, i have seen first hand US Navy crews do their utmost to stop harming whales. While on Anti-submarine Excercise a US DDG increased lookouts and scanned not for surface contacts, but for whales as their sonar was active. When on, they do everything they can to limit exposure to marine life, but you cant stop it all the time.
While environmentalists would see Low frequency as a negative, on the flip side it gives larger area to survey and search for enemy contacts. The distance between you and your enemy can be the difference between life and death for Submariners. When it comes down to it, USN will do what they can, but can only do so much when there is a bigger issue at stake. Whats the point of using Sonar in battle if you cant operate it in practice.

The USN holds training on whale spotting for its lookouts and I've seen live firing and ASW events delayed due to the presence of whales.

 

[EmperorNortonII]

... but are there really no better ways of detecting subs? Wouldn't things like whales or certain rock formations give false contacts? I'm not sure what is and is not classified, but if there's someone who is a submariner who is familiar with such things, I would love to talk to you.

 

[spoz]

... but are there really no better ways of detecting subs? Wouldn't things like whales or certain rock formations give false contacts? I'm not sure what is and is not classified, but if there's someone who is a submariner who is familiar with such things, I would love to talk to you.

Yes, and that is the science and art of using sonar, whether in a sewer pipe or from a skimmer.

There is presently no better way of detecting submarines; lots of other ideas have been tried but as yet no go.

Different water temperatures, salinity levels etc create "layers" in the ocean which have the ability to cause refraction of the sound thus providing "dead" spots if you're not on same side of the layer. A number of layers, or the presence of a layer and a proximate bottom, or even a layer and the surface, can create channels through which the sound effectively "bounces" (this is a simplification).

From a sludgemarine the best detection methods are usually passive from inside the channel in which the target is located, assuming of course that you are quieter than him and have a better sonar. For a target (surface ship) the best techniques is probably to lower something into the same channel and actively detect there but there are other techniques.

Take a look at the Wikpedia entry for "Sonar" - it gives the basics pretty well.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

... but are there really no better ways of detecting subs? Wouldn't things like whales or certain rock formations give false contacts?

If there was don’t you think people would be using it? A far higher motivator than saving the inner ears of whales is saving the lives of sailors. So if anything better than active sonar comes along for underwater detection it would be adopted.

But sea water has certain properties. These include excellent conduction of low frequency waves (sound) but poor conduction of high frequency waves (radio, light). If its properties were different you could use other non sound based sensors but then of course whales couldn’t live in it.

 

[EXSSBN2005]

There is actually another way to detect subs using passive sonar and large quantities of explosives but thats not nearly as effective and usually is more detrimental to whales than active sonar. This method only works in the middle of the open ocean and they never told us the results of how acurate it was or if they even detected us. The only type of active sonar that we had was narrow and wide band fathometers as ssbns are not suppost to be detected and the temptation would be rather large to use it if we had it. Its not as if they are going out and trying to say lets go mess up some whales, the whales try talking to our subs and dont seem to understand when we didn't answer them. :nonsense

 

[gf0012-aust]

acoustic properties in water make detection a black art.

eg, sounding charges have been picked up by subs at ranges of 6000km due to anomalies in the ocean - the source cannot be accurately located.

or think of bats and dolphins....

 

[Hanibal]

Advances in Sonar Technology

Hi, Doing my research I found great free book about Advances in Sonar Technology. I see that you are talking about it here.
This book intends to bring together the most recent advances in sonar Technology. The readers will benefit from this books like I am. It consist from 10 great chapters about Statistical Detection to Decision Fusion and multi sonar integration.
This is link where you can find it: w- w- w. intechopen.com/books/show/title/advances_in_sonar_technology]Advances in Sonar Technology | InTechOpen

 

[EmperorNortonII]

Hi, Doing my research I found great free book about Advances in Sonar Technology. I see that you are talking about it here.
This book intends to bring together the most recent advances in sonar Technology. The readers will benefit from this books like I am. It consist from 10 great chapters about Statistical Detection to Decision Fusion and multi sonar integration.
This is link where you can find it: w- w- w. intechopen.com/books/show/title/advances_in_sonar_technology]Advances in Sonar Technology | InTechOpen

Downloaded. Sadly, it'll have to wait until after "Memoirs of a Psychic Spy" and "Flatland."

Thanks to everyone who posted so far. This subject interests me a lot, because finding the right thing to do is so difficult.

 

[redwood]

Navy whale lookouts

The USN holds training on whale spotting for its lookouts and I've seen live firing and ASW events delayed due to the presence of whales.

The Navy has stated that lookouts only have a 9% success rate. In the newly increased Pacific Northwest training area there will be a total of 5 ships on lookout duty from July to December. In essence that means that the lookout ships are pitifully inadequate and the only explanation for having them is to be able to say that they are making mitigation efforts. The other problem with using lookouts is that sonar can be heard at often incredible distances, even up to 600km away.

 

[Atasas]

The name of the topic is correct as a query, but whales is the biggest of animals dying from sonar usage and only ones, that upon deafening float ashore/surface ward... so many other- we dont get to know about