SSKs

[Jaimito]

Im under the impression that the only Subs that dont need to snorkel to recharge there batteries are Nuke subs.

I hear alot of people talking about AIP and commenting on the virtues of AIP.But again even AIP subs need to surface to recharge there batteries.So i am starting to think that AIP is a percentage improvement on a Diesel engine and not a revolution in a new technology.???


Regards

I do not know if nukes have batteries for the motion, they are big subs and would need big batteries just to move a litle for a short time.

Aip is air independent, so they have a range of x days at x speed, without the air needed through the snorkel, air that is for the diesel engine, so they can dive longer deeper than snorkeling or combined with the diesel engine, snorkeling less frequently. Diesel-electric without aip, they need batteries for those deeper divings in motion, and when the batteries run out they need to snorkel air for the diesel engine and recharge and keep moving.
In an hypotethical procedure you are in a sub and listen a ping somewhere, and you navigate to this ping until you luckily listen with the passive sonar his engines or propellers, so when he stops his noise you stop your diesel engines as well and connect Aip or if not the normal batteries and keep getting closer while he is stoped listening his passive sonar, and when he stars running on his engines again and bigger speed you do the same so that he can´t hear you and his sub can´t either (luckily) because of surrouinding noise, they stop again then with the aip or normal batteries get closer, but this is not easy with normal batteries because they are very limited, and at the same time when you snorkel you are less deep, and more deep more difficult for the active sonar of his ship, maybe, and also make more noise. Diesel-electric without aip are for many things useful and for basic attack warfare, and even nukes subs might not match silent approaching capacities given by potential and/or ideal aip subs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

again, its time to point out that AIP is not a panacea for conventional subs and their endurance.

the continuing claims about how AIP will impact on conventionals is almost at urban mythology stage.

the continuing mythology that conventionals hare a significant signal management advantage is also another urban myth.

there is a fundamental advantage of larger subs that smaller subs sacrifice, and Collins, Soryua. Oyashios are able to run US nuke combat systems due to onboard power constraints.

its not the AIP that is a game changer - its onboard power - and people generally confuse the issue of endurance and onboard power to manage the sensor and combat suites.

the US had nukes entering array protected harbours during the cold war - far more repeatedly and successfully than any conventional class could - in fact nukes were used becaise they had the persistence and combat suite footprint to go in under hostile conditions and sweep and sniff for their ferret missions. They often did this at close to keel scraping levels.

CBASS was designed so that larger subs could go in as close as possible and use the torpedo to hunt and kill small subs in the littorals.

a discussion about AIP needs to centre on mission sets, on the CONOPS, on the warfighting platform intent. it can't be dumbed down to "it's automatically better"

granted the open and public domian press continue to dumb this down and simplify it to sound bite sized commentary, but one would hope that we can keep the simplistic media views on military acquisition and military technologies out of the debate as much as possible

 

[Jaimito]

As you say each Conops would be impacted by aip in different ways, maybe it is a better purpose for aip to scape than to attack, say you want to go away from a zone where there is observation from air, if run away on diesel engine the subs scapes faster say 19 knots, but needs to do snorkeling sometimes and it will be easier to detect being closer to surface and showing the snorkel etc. If there is some aip they will be able to be much deeper where appreciation is minimized, despite being slower say 4 knots. It is not a panacea for scaping.
Other Conops is direct vis a vis with other subs, the more silent you are the better you will use your passive sonar, when diesel engine will need to star working for keep moving or recharge batteries, aip long enough (limited speed) doesn´t use the diesel engine so is more silent and so more probability to detect first the diesel-electric submarine.
Equivalent, power onboard is given by diesel engines in diesel-electric, and can be given by aip in aip subs. The point of all these is assuming you have an aip more silent than diesel engine.
Edit: just to add that if you need to run the diesel then you need to come up near surface for some time, either that or you stay submerged running out of power onboard.

 

[Todjaeger]

As you say each Conops would be impacted by aip in different ways, maybe it is a better purpose for aip to scape than to attack, say you want to go away from a zone where there is observation from air, if run away on diesel engine the subs scapes faster say 19 knots, but needs to do snorkeling sometimes and it will be easier to detect being closer to surface and showing the snorkel etc. If there is some aip they will be able to be much deeper where appreciation is minimized, despite being slower say 4 knots. It is not a panacea for scaping.
Other Conops is direct vis a vis with other subs, the more silent you are the better you will use your passive sonar, when diesel engine will need to star working for keep moving or recharge batteries, aip long enough (limited speed) doesn´t use the diesel engine so is more silent and so more probability to detect first the diesel-electric submarine.
Equivalent, power onboard is given by diesel engines in diesel-electric, and can be given by aip in aip subs. The point of all these is assuming you have an aip more silent than diesel engine.
Edit: just to add that if you need to run the diesel then you need to come up near surface for some time, either that or you stay submerged running out of power onboard.

I am at work presently, so unable to provide a full response to this, a longer reply will come later on this evening.

A 'conventional' diesel-electric submarine operates on diesels typically when either surfaced or snorting/snorkeling, either for propulsion or to generate power and recharge the onboard batteries. An AIP-equipped submarine is typically a diesel-electric that is fitted with an additonal engine or generator that is able to be operated without consuming the onboard air supply.

Now, an AIP-equipped sub could potentially remain submerged for prolonged periods of time, because the AIP system could allow the battery to be recharged without requiring the sub or snorkel to surface. As such, it can (emphasis CAN, not automatically IS) a useful adjunct to a 'conventional' diesel-electric powerplant. One needs to keep in mind the power generation capacity of the normal and AIP powerplants, the battery charge time and capacity, and a number of other factors.

More to follow.

-Cheers