Red Flag and the Greeks

[Vulcan750L]

What is this I hear about the Greek Air Force kicking American ass in Red Flag exercises? I can't find anything on it on the internet except for a few unsupported claims. Any truth to what they are saying? What is the story behind this?

 

[Awang se]

Everyone kick American ass during exercise. but can they do it in the real thing?

 

[winnyfield]

Were they talking about the aggressor squadrons?

 

[Bonza]

What is this I hear about the Greek Air Force kicking American ass in Red Flag exercises? I can't find anything on it on the internet except for a few unsupported claims. Any truth to what they are saying? What is the story behind this?

It would be worth having a read about how air combat training works to get an idea of why it's not a very representative thing to say "Nation X kicked Nation Y's ass". It's much more complex (and realistic) than everyone arriving and the mission planners saying "Okay, Greeks versus Americans, everyone in their planes". It depends on taskings, on who is supposed to achieve what, etc etc. So for example, a Greek squadron might hand an American squadron their asses - but who they are isn't the point, it's all about what the exercise was trying to achieve. So the American squadron may have been tasked to mimic the behaviour of a realistic threat force the Greeks may encounter, and the objective may be so that the Greek squadron can learn how to fight this force. In this respect, if the training works then yes, the Greeks have won - not necessarily because they have superior pilots or aircraft, but because the training served its purpose. See the difference? Have a look at the following thread:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/dissimilar-air-combat-training-dact-1157/

This will give you a broad picture of how air combat training works. Hope it helps.

 

[Vulcan750L]

Were they talking about the aggressor squadrons?

I have no idea, but I'm guessing so. The Helena air force is bragging about how well they do at Red Flag and they're claiming to be the best air force in the world. I just want to know if there is any truth to what they are saying.

I'm guessing they won against the aggressor forces and the F15s and F16s but they are also claiming that they shot down a bunch of F22s. Where can I find results of the these Red Flag exercises, for the past 5 years?

Just a bit off topic, but I also hear that the F22s were shot down in other exercises against the Euro Fighter squadrons. Any truth to that? If so, what is the story behind that if anyone can provide me with any links about it.

 

[localhost127]

Just a bit off topic, but I also hear that the F22s were shot down in other exercises against the Euro Fighter squadrons. Any truth to that? If so, what is the story behind that if anyone can provide me with any links about it.

what conclusion would you be hoping to draw from obtaining such information?

 

[Vulcan750L]

what conclusion would you be hoping to draw from obtaining such information?

I want to know what the facts are.

If it is true that our F22s are no better than a Euro fighter, then the F22 program was a total waste of money. Each one of those planes cost almost 300 million a piece. I would like to think we got our money's worth. If not, we're better off buying some Euro fighters or we need to come up with something better than the F22s.

 

[Todjaeger]

I want to know what the facts are.

If it is true that our F22s are no better than a Euro fighter, then the F22 program was a total waste of money. Each one of those planes cost almost 300 million a piece. I would like to think we got our money's worth. If not, we're better off buying some Euro fighters or we need to come up with something better than the F22s.

I would strongly recommend re-reading the article on DACT which Bonza linked to earlier. The article discusses much of what goes on at air combat exercises like Red Flag.

The "quick and dirty" of the article is that air forces, even when training with/against friendlies, rarely report the 'real' capabilities of their aircraft, sensors and weapons. Between that, and the exercise rules setup to determine who 'wins' under what conditions means that a F-15 determined to have been 'shot down' at a Red Flag exercise might have been operating under conditions which it would not find itself in during wartime. The same goes for and F-22. Remember, exercises like Red Flag are geared more towards providing training and operational experience. If an air force finds the experience valuable, then it was worthwhile. A claim of "the best air force in the world" due to the results of an exercise is hubris.

-Cheers

 

[chris]

You must be talking about a red flag back at 2008, in which HAF took part. There was no official stance from HAF except the typical announcement. Defense press in Greece, who could get some unofficial info, reported that we did extremely well even against the aggressors. I wouldn't be surprised because if I remember right, the pilots we send were our own aggressors.

Soon after that, unofficial leaks started to emerge all over the Greek internet from people who knew someone that knows someone who knows and the issue got out of proportions.

I don't know who you are talking to, but I doubt it is a member of HAF. They are fully aware of the same thing everybody else is trying to say to you in this thread. It is simply a DACT, an exercise. Even if the wildest speculations of the Greek bloggers are true, what really happened was exchange of knowledge and I'm sure that by now, the lessons learned are fully embedded in both HAF and USAF.

Finally, our aircraft were F-16s and I don't remember any reports about F-22 involvement in the exercise.

 

[GermanHerman]

I want to know what the facts are.

If it is true that our F22s are no better than a Euro fighter, then the F22 program was a total waste of money. Each one of those planes cost almost 300 million a piece. I would like to think we got our money's worth. If not, we're better off buying some Euro fighters or we need to come up with something better than the F22s.

Sounds more like the real question here would be if the USA should or shouldn't invest in the development of own next generation fighters and instead buy them from another country?

If so, it seems that the performance is not the actual question.
What do you think is so expensive about this programs? The research it is and the product of research is not a finished product but knowledge and experience which will helps you to progress even further.
If you don't invest in the research necessary for a 5th gen fighter today, you won't be able to build a 6th gen tomorrow.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Vulcan750L]

Sounds more like the real question here would be if the USA should or shouldn't invest in the development of own next generation fighters and instead buy them from another country?

If so, it seems that the performance is not the actual question.
What do you think is so expensive about this programs? The research it is and the product of research is not a finished product but knowledge and experience which will helps you to progress even further.
If you don't invest in the research necessary for a 5th gen fighter today, you won't be able to build a 6th gen tomorrow.

Just my 2 cents

Nope . . . you missed the point of the question. I said what I meant. You're trying to read into what I said.

 

[Vulcan750L]

You must be talking about a red flag back at 2008, in which HAF took part. There was no official stance from HAF except the typical announcement. Defense press in Greece, who could get some unofficial info, reported that we did extremely well even against the aggressors. I wouldn't be surprised because if I remember right, the pilots we send were our own aggressors.

Soon after that, unofficial leaks started to emerge all over the Greek internet from people who knew someone that knows someone who knows and the issue got out of proportions.

I don't know who you are talking to, but I doubt it is a member of HAF. They are fully aware of the same thing everybody else is trying to say to you in this thread. It is simply a DACT, an exercise. Even if the wildest speculations of the Greek bloggers are true, what really happened was exchange of knowledge and I'm sure that by now, the lessons learned are fully embedded in both HAF and USAF.

Finally, our aircraft were F-16s and I don't remember any reports about F-22 involvement in the exercise.

I think they were bragging about a recent Red Flag competition.

Do we ever fight against allied air forces using American weaponry and tactics for exercise?

 

[TaranisAttack]

I have no idea, but I'm guessing so. The Helena air force is bragging about how well they do at Red Flag and they're claiming to be the best air force in the world. I just want to know if there is any truth to what they are saying.

I'm guessing they won against the aggressor forces and the F15s and F16s but they are also claiming that they shot down a bunch of F22s. Where can I find results of the these Red Flag exercises, for the past 5 years?

Just a bit off topic, but I also hear that the F22s were shot down in other exercises against the Euro Fighter squadrons. Any truth to that? If so, what is the story behind that if anyone can provide me with any links about it.

Anything can shoot anything down, it proves nothing. A WW1 biplane could down an F22 in the right circumstances.

The Eurofighers vary greatly in their fitout, the German ones don't even have an IRST. Some also lack a towed array decoy. I think the only Typhoon with pretty much all the stuff is the RAF models. As for shooting down F22s, it means nothing, and I've not heard of any official exercises between them yet anyway.

 

[Waylander]

The Austrian EFs don't have PIRATE and not the German ones IIRC.

 

[rip]

What is this I hear about the Greek Air Force kicking American ass in Red Flag exercises? I can't find anything on it on the internet except for a few unsupported claims. Any truth to what they are saying? What is the story behind this?

I think the explanation you need for your question is as follows. When the US conducts exercises, with another friendly power the US almost always loses. Why? The reason is because of the way the exercises are designed. The exercises are designed by and for the friendly country’s needs not the US. They are designed to test the skill, equipment, and the doctrine of the friendly power in the way which the friendly power most expects it might have to be used. Used against those entities which the friendly power thinks, it might have to someday face.

Note to the reader, this is not in any way even close to the way that the US expects to fight its Air land or Sea battles in the future. The US does not expect to fight a war as a group of set pieces battles at all. Us doctrine is not designed around the precepts of individual combat or the face offs between similar platforms but of one that is based upon Combined Arms, multilevel, layered, net centric strategy. The US has not conducted a full up, no holds barred air campaign, since the first Gulf War. The second Gulf war was hardly a test.

The best Air Force in the world on a man for man bases is probably the Israeli. The consistent best performer in multinational air combat exercises are the Austrians. Why? For the Israeli the answer is twofold. One, the Israeli's believe that without question their pilots and their Air Force is the single most important factor in securing their nations very survival. An assumption of national need that most other countries do not follow in setting of their own priorities. There is no confusion about this in Israel however and they give Air Power the highest priority in the quality of its personal and equipment. And two, they get allot of practice in real war situations that have real war results that keep them very sharp. The Austrians are very good as well and they get allot of time to practice exercises but even they know the difference between real combat and exercises.

A Number of years ago there was a US and Austrian exercise (I cannot remember the year or the name) that was very different than the usual kind. It this exercise a US Navy Carrier Task Group simulated an attack on North-Eastern Austria using our tactics and equipment without restrictions. Australia is one of the few countries in the world we trust enough to show off all of our tricks so they got the full treatment. The results were that even though they had the F-111C which was and is in fact still is a very good airplane, and that they have very good pilots to fly them,with a decent air defense system to control them, the Austrian’s decided afterward to completely revamp and upgrade their defense strategy, equipment, and tactics.

I hope that this helps you.

 

[Waylander]

Was that before or after the Austrians changed from Saab Drakens to EFs?
And how did the USN manage to get the carrier strike group into the Lake Constance?












Aaaah, sorry I couldn't resist...

 

[polyvios]

Greek pilots repeatedly have won recognition and awards from their colleagues during NATO exercises. This is not new at least for me. Such last case was during Tactical Leadership Programme 2011-3 at Albacete Spain. Two Greek pilots won top awards for air-to-air and SEAD operations, fighting even against superior aircrafts such as the Eurofighter.