Ak47 and 5.56 ammo question

[kevyooper]

This came up during a "discussion" at hunting camp.
I was told that a 5.56x45mm round will fire out of an ak47 as told by his drill instructor back in about 1970. I think there may be some truth to this but not the whole story.
1. will it fire?
2. will it eject the spent round or will it blow up in the chamber?
3.if it ejects the round will it cycle a magazine full of 5.56 rounds?
This discussion came about because he stated that the ak 47 was designed around the 5.56 round SPECIFICALLY so if the enemy came across 5.56 rounds they could use them in the ak, which may have been an incidental finding, not specific. I don't think this is true because the the 5.56 (M16) was not developed until years after the ak47 (1947) was put into service. please correct me if i'm wrong

 

[SASWanabe]

i would assume it would just blow up in your face.... Both old and new AK's are 6mm smaller than 5.56x45 might not sound like much but the barrels are snug to fit so... blow up in your face

Your mate might have been confused between
5.56x45 NATO (US) M16, And
5.45x39 NATO (RUS) Modern AK-74 bullet

An M16 might stand a chance at firing the 5.45x39 But not vice versa

 

[Feanor]

i would assume it would just blow up in your face.... Both old and new AK's are 6mm smaller than 5.56x45 might not sound like much but the barrels are snug to fit so... blow up in your face

Your mate might have been confused between
5.56x45 NATO (US) M16, And
5.45x39 NATO (RUS) Modern AK-74 bullet

An M16 would might a chance at firing the 5.45x39 But not vice versa

Sounds about right. Though I'm not sure, it might be possible. I'll see if I can find anything on the subject.

 

[chrisdef]

Would bet its impossible.
As has been said the 5.56 round is 6mm longer, i doubt they would fit in any part of the gun.

 

[9ak]

Judging by dimmensions of both cartridges, 5,56x45 would be chambered, but I doubt it would be fired.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/762x39_cartridge.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5.56x45mm_NATO.jpg

 

[HKSDU]

i would assume it would just blow up in your face.... Both old and new AK's are 6mm smaller than 5.56x45 might not sound like much but the barrels are snug to fit so... blow up in your face

Your mate might have been confused between
5.56x45 NATO (US) M16, And
5.45x39 NATO (RUS) Modern AK-74 bullet

An M16 might stand a chance at firing the 5.45x39 But not vice versa

no such thing as 5.45x39 nato, do you even know what nato stands for? cause 5.45x39 is a russian round. not a western round.

There are 3 main AR rounds in service
5.56x45 NATO
5.45x39 =>Russian round
5.8x42 =>Chinese round

 

[StobieWan]

This came up during a "discussion" at hunting camp.
I was told that a 5.56x45mm round will fire out of an ak47 as told by his drill instructor back in about 1970. I think there may be some truth to this but not the whole story.
1. will it fire?
2. will it eject the spent round or will it blow up in the chamber?
3.if it ejects the round will it cycle a magazine full of 5.56 rounds?
This discussion came about because he stated that the ak 47 was designed around the 5.56 round SPECIFICALLY so if the enemy came across 5.56 rounds they could use them in the ak, which may have been an incidental finding, not specific. I don't think this is true because the the 5.56 (M16) was not developed until years after the ak47 (1947) was put into service. please correct me if i'm wrong

The AK47 was based around the 7.62 x 39mm round, first fielded in the SKS rifle in 1945 - a full ten years before 5.56 saw the light of day, so it's not possible that the AK-47 was ever designed around the idea of chambering a cartridge that wasn't even adopted into US service until the mid 1960's

As to chambering it, again, non starter -the nato cartridge is too long, so you most likely couldn't even close the bolt.

Where I *think* this rumour might have sprung from is a garbled recollection about something else that is true - that the USSR adopted an 82 mm *mortar* round - just a fraction too big to chamber in the US weapons but theoretically, the invading Pact forces would be able to make use of any captured stocks of 81mm US mortar rounds. I'd guess they'd chamber fine but you'd have a bit more gas bleed out around the expanding skirt on the round tho ?

Ian

 

[brokenstring202]

AK-47 and 5.56 round

This came up during a "discussion" at hunting camp.
I was told that a 5.56x45mm round will fire out of an ak47 as told by his drill instructor back in about 1970. I think there may be some truth to this but not the whole story.
1. will it fire?
2. will it eject the spent round or will it blow up in the chamber?
3.if it ejects the round will it cycle a magazine full of 5.56 rounds?
This discussion came about because he stated that the ak 47 was designed around the 5.56 round SPECIFICALLY so if the enemy came across 5.56 rounds they could use them in the ak, which may have been an incidental finding, not specific. I don't think this is true because the the 5.56 (M16) was not developed until years after the ak47 (1947) was put into service. please correct me if i'm wrong

The basic problem with the theory that an AK-47 can chamber and fire a 5.56 round is that a 5.56 is only .223 caliber and the AK-47 is 7.62mm, or a .30 caliber weapon.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

This would certianly be something interesting to try if you had a safe range and spare AKM you wouldn't mind destroying.

While there is no way an AK would feed 5.56mm from a magazine it is kind of possible you could seat the round in the breech. The shoulder of the 5.56mm case is just 0.4mm wider than the neck of the 7.62x39. Depending on the tolerances of the AKM breech this could mean its possible for a 5.56mm round to be fully seated with the breech closed. The overall length of each round is not so different (+1.4mm for 5.56) so the tip would just protrude a little bit more into the bore which is meaningless. That is assuming the bolt would hold onto the rimless base of the 5.56mm round and the firing pin would still align with the primer. Otherwise the round would just slot in loose until case was lodged at the shoulder and the firing pin could not reach the primer. Even if the shoulder of the 5.56 wouldn't fit into the neck of the 7.62x39 it might still fire from open bolt.

Anyway the AK was certainly not designed for this in mind. Even if it worked you would need to manually load each round and there would be very little velocity and accuracy as the bullet would not be snug in the bore. Kind of turning the AK into a pre made zip gun for 5.56.

 

[StobieWan]

This would certianly be something interesting to try if you had a safe range and spare AKM you wouldn't mind destroying.

While there is no way an AK would feed 5.56mm from a magazine it is kind of possible you could seat the round in the breech. The shoulder of the 5.56mm case is just 0.4mm wider than the neck of the 7.62x39. Depending on the tolerances of the AKM breech this could mean its possible for a 5.56mm round to be fully seated with the breech closed. The overall length of each round is not so different (+1.4mm for 5.56) so the tip would just protrude a little bit more into the bore which is meaningless. That is assuming the bolt would hold onto the rimless base of the 5.56mm round and the firing pin would still align with the primer. Otherwise the round would just slot in loose until case was lodged at the shoulder and the firing pin could not reach the primer. Even if the shoulder of the 5.56 wouldn't fit into the neck of the 7.62x39 it might still fire from open bolt.

Anyway the AK was certainly not designed for this in mind. Even if it worked you would need to manually load each round and there would be very little velocity and accuracy as the bullet would not be snug in the bore. Kind of turning the AK into a pre made zip gun for 5.56.

Even then, I think there's ample room for the case to twist or badly deform, or for the pin to destroy itself as it finds something in its path five and a bit mm earlier than designed?

Myth busted I think?


Ian

 

[t68]

Even then, I think there's ample room for the case to twist or badly deform, or for the pin to destroy itself as it finds something in its path five and a bit mm earlier than designed?

Myth busted I think?


Ian

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[Demosfer]

This came up during a "discussion" at hunting camp.
I was told that a 5.56x45mm round will fire out of an ak47 as told by his drill instructor back in about 1970. I think there may be some truth to this but not the whole story.
1. will it fire?
2. will it eject the spent round or will it blow up in the chamber?
3.if it ejects the round will it cycle a magazine full of 5.56 rounds?
This discussion came about because he stated that the ak 47 was designed around the 5.56 round SPECIFICALLY so if the enemy came across 5.56 rounds they could use them in the ak, which may have been an incidental finding, not specific. I don't think this is true because the the 5.56 (M16) was not developed until years after the ak47 (1947) was put into service. please correct me if i'm wrong

Conversation goes not about Ak-47, and about АК 100 series

 

[riksavage]

Britain has a awarded a contract with supplier BAE Systems under MASS to deliver new 5.56mm technology shifting from steel tip/ lead core to a single steel core in a gilding metal envelope. BAE will switch all of its 5.56mm production over to the new round, and may adapt it for 7.62mm. This new round will replace the SS109 in UK service and I suspect prove an attractive export model. The recently modernised BAE UK facility is producing a million rounds per-day of standard 5.56mm

The PRC have been using steel core ammo for 7.62 mm short for years. I took part in test against vehicle / body armour back in the late nineties. The steel core rounds had excellent penetration, even against ballistic plates.

 

[SASWanabe]

so effectively a FMJ round?

 

[Bonza]

so effectively a FMJ round?

No, it's referring to different parts of the bullet - the core and the jacket. Full metal jacket rounds are often a hard metal shell around a softer core metal. Google around and you'll find the differences explained in depth.

 

[SASWanabe]

No, it's referring to different parts of the bullet - the core and the jacket. Full metal jacket rounds are often a hard metal shell around a softer core metal. Google around and you'll find the differences explained in depth.

sorry, i was talking about Armor Piercing FMJ (soft jacket hard core)

the jacket being to stop the hard core from causing unnecessary damage/wear to the rifling of the barrel.

 

[PCShogun]

Well, I think you got your answer. The AK47 uses a 7.62*39mm bullet, while NATO uses 5.56*45. The AK-74 uses 5.45*39mm. You might be able to stick AK-74 round into the chamber of an M-16 with your finger but it isn't going to feed from the mag; and you are going to cause some damage as the round is not going to seal the chamber properly resulting in a potential loss of the weapon and/or shooter. The AK-47 may simply swallow the bullet and never fire as the round may possibly fit into the entire barrel due to the smaller dimensions, and if not, will not allow the bolt to go forward enough to allow the weapon to fire. Never tried this though but I have the bullets if someone wants to send me the cash to buy a weapon we don't mind destroying.

However, on a similar train of thought, the Russian 9mm Makarov pistol WILL fire a 9mm NATO (Luger, Parabellum) round.

It will not pull it from the magazine nor will it go fully into battery, but it will go bang when you pull the trigger. Now, having said this, DO NOT DO IT unless you are in danger of losing your life anyway. The 9mm Luger is 1 mm longer in the case than the 9mm Makarov round. The Mak round is a bit larger, meaning accuracy from the luger round will not be anything like accurate. Also, the blow back recoil of the Makarov pistol was not designed for the higher pressure of the 9mm luger bullet. It works but can cause damage to the weapon. You could end up with the slide embedded into your head (some exaggeration, but you get my point).