Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[RubiconNZ]

I don't know about that. I think a Frigate is of more national important than Oris/hercs/artillery.

Personally I would classify Orion's Herc's and Frigates as equal in terms of national interest/importance. The Aircraft are our link to the Pacific in partnership with the Frigates, not saying you were not saying they were not important, all I am saying is they are of equal importance in terms of NDZF capability if used and maintained correctly.

I'd agree to the wait and see mode, this Defence review better be good next month we have had to wait bloody long enough. If there is no serious capability enhancements for at the least the mid future it will be a proper :nutkick.

 

[MrConservative]

I wonder if Australia will be in the position of having too many ships in the near future,
If australia offers new zealand a secondhand anzac frigate or two, would that be exceptable to the nz public?
I think a second hand frigate will help ease the pain, and im hoping that two could come our way.
They wouldnt be cheap, as the australian public and media would go to town on the pricing, but this could really work.
Would it be cheeky asking them?
I know during the 90s they tried to force nz into getting at least 3 frigates. so they must be keen to help us.
help us poor nzers

With only 8 Anzacs and years until the Anzac II's comes along I doubt very much Australia is going to have any spare any time soon. When the Anzac II's begin come on line next decade our current 2 Anzacs will be in the last quartile of their useful lives. Also NZ was not held kicking and screaming to buy them (we did get a fair bit of industrial work done here at the time which people conveniently forget) - we in fact originally ordered 4, which dropped to three after the WP in the early 90's (Ruth Richardson dreadful butchering of the defence budget by 40% in real terms) and only were stopped buying 3 due to Winston First vetoing the purchase which forced the Shipley cabinet to basically call a hold at two vessels.

 

[MrConservative]

I wondered that too. It might be prudent to buy closer to the time when Australia starts to replace their Anzacs, though I imagine they will want to get rid of the oldest ones first.
I think with the changing attitudes of the public, they would be amenable to a second hand upgraded Anzac as long as it's done after the recession is perceived to be over.

No. Not prudent - cheap and risky more like it. The RNZN has done this before. It was called the HMNZS Southland and to a slightly lesser degree the Wellington. (Though at the time 1982-83 we were in a far dodgy fiscal position). Taking on nearly 30 year old Anzac I's mid next decade is simply wrong. It is essentially a major strategic and economic procrastination that eventually comes back to bite and bite hard.

 

[anzac3]

With only 8 Anzacs and years until the Anzac II's comes along I doubt very much Australia is going to have any spare any time soon. When the Anzac II's begin come on line next decade our current 2 Anzacs will be in the last quartile of their useful lives. Also NZ was not held kicking and screaming to buy them (we did get a fair bit of industrial work done here at the time which people conveniently forget) - we in fact originally ordered 4, which dropped to three after the WP in the early 90's (Ruth Richardson dreadful butchering of the defence budget by 40% in real terms) and only were stopped buying 3 due to Winston First vetoing the purchase which forced the Shipley cabinet to basically call a hold at two vessels.

Winston First...........thats actually correct, he and his team stopped the 3rd frigate.

I wasnt meaning next decade, I was thinkin, NOW. Surely the would lease us one.

 

[Todjaeger]

Winston First...........thats actually correct, he and his team stopped the 3rd frigate.

I wasnt meaning next decade, I was thinkin, NOW. Surely the would lease us one.

Unfort the RAN Anzac's are currently occupied. Given the upgrade schedule where RAN Anzac's are being refitted with CEA-FAR and CEA-MOUNT, the time it takes for the upgrades to complete per vessel, and the requisite trialing afterwards, the RAN is likely to be 'down' several surface vessels. At least in terms of vessels available for deployment, and this situation is likely to continue for at least the next few years.

As for whether or not the RNZN needs a third frigate, or the NZDF would be better served with an M777 purchase, or replacement Hercs... The NZDF has really be cut hard, as many of the NZDF observers here and elsewhere are already aware of. There are a number of areas where the NZDF needs to replace, expand or regain capabilities. Given the minimal budget the NZDF has consistently been getting for the last decade or more, some very tough decisions need to be made about what can be postponed, what is not needed, and what absolutely must be kept or replaced. Given the scope of what has gone on, I suspect that across the NZDF as a whole, the situation is approaching the point where Government is going to have to increase the level of funding just to maintain the current status quo, or allow services and major capabilities to lapse altogether.

-Cheers

 

[Adzze]

As for whether or not the RNZN needs a third frigate, or the NZDF would be better served with an M777 purchase, or replacement Hercs... The NZDF has really be cut hard[...]. There are a number of areas where the NZDF needs to replace, expand or regain capabilities. Given the minimal budget the NZDF has consistently been getting for the last decade or more, some very tough decisions need to be made about what can be postponed, what is not needed, and what absolutely must be kept or replaced. Given the scope of what has gone on, I suspect that across the NZDF as a whole, the situation is approaching the point where Government is going to have to increase the level of funding just to maintain the current status quo, or allow services and major capabilities to lapse altogether.

And unfortunately it doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon... just today the Stuff news website (can't post links yet sorry) hinted at the contents of Defense White Paper, which is now expected to be released in November. It seems that the plan is to maintain existing capabilities including replacements for frigates, airlift and maritime patrol aircraft (by 2030 and 2020, respectively). Existing operational and capital expenditure shortfalls are to be funded partly through savings in the overall defense spend (projected to be over $50m a year as a result of the review).

These savings will come in through an "ongoing programme to streamline IT, human resources, building and other systems across the Defence Force" including outsourcing some roles to the civilian sector. I guess we won't know for sure until the White Paper is released next month, but it doesn't look as though capabilities will be extended in any significant way. There may not be a third combat vessel and an ACF looks even less likely.

 

[Gibbo]

Open day at Devonport Naval base yesterday - big numbers attended. Co-incided with opening of new Navy Museum.

10 vessels in port - all but 3 open to public. Sea-Sprite on static display.

Long queues for most but of personal interest managed to get onto OPV HMNZS Wellington & HMNZS Manawanui. Wasn't disappointed!

Noted Te Mana now has her Block 1B upgraded Phalanx in place :ar15

 

[anzac3]

Open day at Devonport Naval base yesterday - big numbers attended. Co-incided with opening of new Navy Museum.

10 vessels in port - all but 3 open to public. Sea-Sprite on static display.

Long queues for most but of personal interest managed to get onto OPV HMNZS Wellington & HMNZS Manawanui. Wasn't disappointed!

Noted Te Mana now has her Block 1B upgraded Phalanx in place :ar15

any pictures to share?

 

[Gibbo]

any pictures to share?

Sorry - last minute decision to go! (a.k.a. you & the kids are getting on the wife's nerves!) :jump :kar :jump2 :hul :argue

 

[Norm]

Open day

Open day at Devonport Naval base yesterday - big numbers attended. Co-incided with opening of new Navy Museum.

10 vessels in port - all but 3 open to public. Sea-Sprite on static display.

Long queues for most but of personal interest managed to get onto OPV HMNZS Wellington & HMNZS Manawanui. Wasn't disappointed!

Noted Te Mana now has her Block 1B upgraded Phalanx in place :ar15

Got down there myself looked over the Canterbury being empty it was impresive inside Tardis like !

Just returned from a trip to Australia including some rough seas off NZ.

RNZN - 071010

Also visited the Wellington, the Helicopter Hanger has what I would describe as Civilan ship fit out.There is no evidence of a Helicopter weapons magazine feed into the hanger that you find on the Frigates.Ship overall has a good feel about it .

 

[ThePuss]

Got down there myself looked over the Canterbury being empty it was impresive inside Tardis like !

Just returned from a trip to Australia including some rough seas off NZ.

RNZN - 071010

Also visited the Wellington, the Helicopter Hanger has what I would describe as Civilan ship fit out.There is no evidence of a Helicopter weapons magazine feed into the hanger that you find on the Frigates.Ship overall has a good feel about it .

I can confirm that there is no Air Weapons Magazine (AWM). Here is a link to a the ships drawings.

http://http://www.stxmarine.net/pdf/PV85-br-web.pdf

All in all I think it is a very well thought out design. For example it has a kennel, a morgue and separate facility's for embarked forces including a mess, berthing, armory and magazine.

A AWM would of been nice but it would of required enlarging the design and also adding a lot of weight up high on a design that is already top heavy.

 

[Adzze]

The Ministry of Defence White Paper was finally released today.

As expected, much of its focus was consolidation of finances and some support functions in preparation for civilian outsourcing.

The RNZAF Ohakea base is likely to be expanded to be a combined force base, with some bases rationalised or disposed of.

In terms of what is expected in the short to medium term for the RNZN, the most salient feature was a replacement littoral warfare support ship, and a replacement for fleet supply ship HMNZS Endeavour "possibly with a more versatile option". The littoral warfare support ship will replace both the HMNZShips Manawanui and Resolution.

An ANZAC frigate self-protection upgrade is also on the cards, as is a possible armament/sensor upgrade for the OPVs and IPVs.

 

[recce.k1]

In terms of the ANZAC Frigate upgrades, whilst the defence white paper deliberately doesn't offer any specific details and costs, we can get a general idea by looking at the 2008 LTDP. The variation in the cost range (thus capability) there is quite wide, from $287-850 million.

Details are lacking in terms of what these costs are exactly for, but you can get some general ideas by following the RAN thread here and visiting the Australian DMO website's SEA projects.

In terms of what this (NZ) Govt will approve for the ANZAC upgrades is still unknown at this stage (of course they would know) but the language in the defence white paper appears somewhat positive.

5.60 It will also see a significant investment made to ensure that the ANZAC frigates continue to provide a valued contribution to coalition operations.

See also:

5.47 This force structure will see the ANZAC frigates given a self-defence upgrade to address obsolescence and to improve their defensive capability against contemporary air and surface threats. The two frigates will be replaced at end of life (projected at around 2030), taking account of the wider range of naval combat options then expected to be available.

5.48 Naval helicopters will continue to provide extended reach, surveillance, and airdelivered weapon capabilities (air-to-surface missile and anti-submarine torpedo) for the frigates. A review will determine whether it is more cost-effective to upgrade or replace the existing Seasprite helicopters when they are due for an upgrade in the middle of this decade.

Presumably obsolescence could be referring to the Nato Sea Sparrow and survellience systems. If so there's some exciting possibilities there, especially as the Govt understands the need for networked systems for coalition interoperability etc.

In terms of the Seasprites I take it you're also at the WoNZ site and would have seen the rumours there of NZ acquiring some of the ex-RAN Seasprites (what another 2 or 3, presumably with the advanced avionics removed?), whilst I agree the RNZN needs more ship board helos to deploy on its 5 helo capable vessels (supposedly 3 out 6 Seasprites needed to be available at all times, and that was prior to the Project Protector commissioning etc), although the defence white paper makes no specific mention, so we'll just have to see whether that pans out to anything especially as the govt is open to the possibility of replacing them from around 2015 onwards.

In terms of the OPV/IPV upgrades see the RNZN website and strategic maps as at 2008. However I understand from a Defence source that future issues and planning etc, was being reassesed meaning that the updates to the strategic plan and maps are on hold in terms of release to the public. Presumably (my guestimate) now the defence white paper has been released we'll see the updated plan in the next year or so, hopefully with more detail on the replacement vessels being proposed as well etc.

 

[MrConservative]

Extra Naval Helicopters is an interesting point Recce. I think that with the new Littoral Warfare Vessel coming on line it is liekly that it too will with a deck and hanger, and obviously the Endevour replacement. So that will mean six RNZN vessels helicopter capable, which will mean a need for more naval helicopters. Possibly up to eight. That new LWV noted is going to have reasonable speed according to the DWP material. Thus I can see it also offering EEZ patrol capability that was never satisfied properly under Protector. Resolution and Manawanui have been defacto PV's for years now. So it makes sense.

Generally the DWP is quite OK. A bit vague in parts but OK. Better than the DSI/LTDP under the previous lot.

 

[KiwiRob]

Aren't the A109's usable at sea? So with the additional 3 being purchased they could be used on the OPV's and Canterbury.

 

[KH-12]

Aren't the A109's usable at sea? So with the additional 3 being purchased they could be used on the OPV's and Canterbury.

Would be a good solution, you would want to add a search radar to the kit if full utility was desired as an on-board helicopter. Would certainly be a cheaper solution to operate than the Seasprite. I think you would want a marinised version such as the Sweds have which incorporates floatation devices etc, so might be a different spec to the training version (more expensive )

 

[Todjaeger]

Would be a good solution, you would want to add a search radar to the kit if full utility was desired as an on-board helicopter. Would certainly be a cheaper solution to operate than the Seasprite. I think you would want a marinised version such as the Sweds have which incorporates floatation devices etc, so might be a different spec to the training version (more expensive )

I would also suggest having some form of E/O camera system incorporating IR, visual & thermal imaging and NVG, for both SAR and EEZ patrol/enforcement purposes. Unfortunately, as additional systems get incorporated to really make the helis viable for a maritime role, they become more expensive pieces of kit as well as having even less commonality amongst the training helis. However, they would still have greater commonality than a completely different dedicated helicopter design, unless the NZDF chose to completely replace the Seasprites with a different naval helicopter and purposed additional examples to operate from land bases as well as non-combatant RNZN vessels. The very real potential downside to the NZDF attempting something like this, is that a truly appropriate naval helicopter like the NFH-90 or MH-60R/S is not cheap, which means that any NDF purchase is most certainly going to be limited in quantity.

-Cheers

 

[CJohn]

Am generally pleased with the direction of the white paper, though a larger relocation of funds is what is ultimately needed moving forward. I,m interested in the possible sensor / weapons upgrade to the OPV,s and IPV,s. I imagine some type of air search radar may be what is being suggested as a sensor upgrade here, though others might know better.

I can only think a weapons upgrade to the IPV,s might entail a mini typhoon system fitted to the forward gun position.

In the OPV,s I can,t see mini typhoons as much of an advantage and would suggest the 25mm auto cannon may be what is being mentioned for possible replacement.
Considering the limited options due to gun mount deck penetrations, there is only a few naval guns that could be considered. Something like the Bae 40mm mk3 naval gun would fit this requirement and extend the vessels defensive reach out to an impressive 12000 meters. I think this was the Navy,s minimum requirement from the original protector project.

I am only speculating here, but an upgrade of this type would be nice.

 

[Adzze]

I can only think a weapons upgrade to the IPV,s might entail a mini typhoon system fitted to the forward gun position.

Our IPVs don't have any armament presently except for .50cal machine guns and small arms, so possibly a bushmaster type arrangement similar to the Armidale class (and on the other Protector class vessel types) might be what they mean.

 

[KH-12]

Our IPVs don't have any armament presently except for .50cal machine guns and small arms, so possibly a bushmaster type arrangement similar to the Armidale class (and on the other Protector class vessel types) might be what they mean.

Maybe the plan is to take the 25mm mounts from the OPV's and put them on the IPV's, if the plan was to use the OPV's in things like anti-piracy patrols some side mounted mini-typhoons might be appropriate for self defence.