Iraqi Air Force and Air Defense

[anan]

cameron200, there is multiple reporting on the 24 F-16s for the IqAF [Iraqi Air Force.] Please research it on your own. I am, however, unsure if the F-16s will be block 52; or some other variant.

There is uncertainty over the remaining 76 F-16s the IqAF wants. Don't think any firm orders will be made until the new GoI coalition government is seated.

Iraq has no choice but to buy air defense capability. Iraq is surrounded by a sea of enemies who only recently [2003-2008] tried to destroy Iraq by training, advising, funding, equipping and providing combat enablers to militias fighting inside Iraq.

While violence in Iraq is down about 95% from the peak; many of the resistance fighters have merely retreated to the neighboring countries that backed them. The neighbors are keeping them as assets they might deploy against Iraq in the future.

Your bizarre comments about not wanting Iraq to get F-16s are troubling? Do you fear that a successful, strong, free and democratic Iraq is a threat to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf emirates, and Iran?

If Iran or any of the neighbors mess with Iraq again; they will regret it. The Iraqi Security Forces are far more capable now than they were a few years ago.

My apologies if my comments are off topic.

 

[cameron200]

IqAF plans to buy 24 supersonic trainer aircraft. Either BAE Systems’ Hawk, KAI/Lockheed’s T-50, or Alenia’s M-346.

"the expected 24-plane Iraqi deal could be worth GBP 500 million initially (currently about $760 million), rising to GBP 1 billion over the life of the aircraft once servicing and maintenance contracts are included."

Iraq is likely to buy the T-50 Golden Eagle trainer and the competition is cover to show they had a competition. South Korea is likely to provide Iraq a large infrastructure offset.

T/A-50 Golden Eagles for Iraq?

In separate unrelated news, IqAF still hopes to buy 96 F16s and 96 other non US 4.5 gen fighters [to protect Iraq from the risk of the US cutting off Iraq's spares and maintenance.] So far, only 24 F16s have been ordered:
Montrose Toast - Blog
The non US fighters will probably be Dassault Rafale given Iraqi politics.

yeh but it still does not state that iraq is getting any of the f16 and to me honest do u think the US will sell them any heavy wepons lets face it iraq has been taken over by iran so why sell terrorist weapons

 

[Feanor]

The phrase "Iraq has been taken over by Iran" needs some serious substantiation.

 

[cameron200]

The phrase "Iraq has been taken over by Iran" needs some serious substantiation.

u can not deny the fact iraqi politics has been taken over by iranian revolutionary guards just look at the current problem with the oppostion no leaving office and going to iran for help on democracy (funny i know) now anan is saying they have orderd the f16 i think and hope we do not sell them any advance wepons and with the current situation i dont think the us will sell or give the f16 to a unstable and maybe soon unfriendly nation please have a look at so report from iraq and assess the idea ur self

 

[anan]

cameron200, if you want documentation on the 24 F-16s the IqAF are procuring; please leave a comment here:
Montrose Toast - Blog

The Iraqis are pushing hard to get the US government to lend/lease the 112 F15s and 110 F16s that the USAF are retiring. [a total of 134 F16s are being retired . . . 24 going to Romania.]

This is in addition to the 96 new F16s and 96 other 4.5 gen fighters the IqAF wants to buy.

There have been public statements from the IMoD (Iraqi Ministry of Defense) stating that 70% of new MoD weapons procurement will go to the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force.)

Budget is an issue at present. Deficit was 19% of GDP in 2009. However, the GoI (Gov of Iraq) is projecting 12.5 million barrels/day in oil production in 7 years; versus about 2 million barrels/day in 2002. This would make Iraq the world's largest oil producer; larger than the US, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

cameron200, PM Maliki ordered to ISF (Iraqi Security Forces) to dismantle all Iranian backed Iraqi militias on March 26, 2008. My May, 2008, the Iranian backed militias had been defeated by the ISF. Since then the Iranian government has mostly behaved itself . . . as is evident in the large decline in Iraqi violence.

If Iran is perceived to be messing with Iraq again; you better not be between the ISF and Iran. The ISF will be highly motivated.

This is off topic; but I believe that America, NATO, China, India, Russia, Japan, Korea, Indonesia; the civilized world; has no better friend and ally in the middle east than Iraq. Iraqis strongly dislike Takfiri extremists; much more so than Americans or Europeans for example. If Iraqis think America is backing the extremists; then Iraqis would fight both the extremists and America. A strong Iraq benefits us all.

 

[Feanor]

u can not deny the fact iraqi politics has been taken over by iranian revolutionary guards just look at the current problem with the oppostion no leaving office and going to iran for help on democracy (funny i know) now anan is saying they have orderd the f16 i think and hope we do not sell them any advance wepons and with the current situation i dont think the us will sell or give the f16 to a unstable and maybe soon unfriendly nation please have a look at so report from iraq and assess the idea ur self

I don't happen to agree, and granted the level of US influence, don't think Iraqi procurement concerns will be determined by Iran.

I also don't think several squadrons of F-16s will make a significant difference one way or the other, in the absence of post-sale support. (look at Iranian Tomcats) In other words the significance of the threat is over-rated.

 

[cameron200]

cameron200, if you want documentation on the 24 F-16s the IqAF are procuring; please leave a comment here:
Montrose Toast - Blog

The Iraqis are pushing hard to get the US government to lend/lease the 112 F15s and 110 F16s that the USAF are retiring. [a total of 134 F16s are being retired . . . 24 going to Romania.]

This is in addition to the 96 new F16s and 96 other 4.5 gen fighters the IqAF wants to buy.

There have been public statements from the IMoD (Iraqi Ministry of Defense) stating that 70% of new MoD weapons procurement will go to the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force.)

Budget is an issue at present. Deficit was 19% of GDP in 2009. However, the GoI (Gov of Iraq) is projecting 12.5 million barrels/day in oil production in 7 years; versus about 2 million barrels/day in 2002. This would make Iraq the world's largest oil producer; larger than the US, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

cameron200, PM Maliki ordered to ISF (Iraqi Security Forces) to dismantle all Iranian backed Iraqi militias on March 26, 2008. My May, 2008, the Iranian backed militias had been defeated by the ISF. Since then the Iranian government has mostly behaved itself . . . as is evident in the large decline in Iraqi violence.

If Iran is perceived to be messing with Iraq again; you better not be between the ISF and Iran. The ISF will be highly motivated.

This is off topic; but I believe that America, NATO, China, India, Russia, Japan, Korea, Indonesia; the civilized world; has no better friend and ally in the middle east than Iraq. Iraqis strongly dislike Takfiri extremists; much more so than Americans or Europeans for example. If Iraqis think America is backing the extremists; then Iraqis would fight both the extremists and America. A strong Iraq benefits us all.

i understand the blog however its all speculation there is no evedience of any purchase wanting to buy the fighter and buying them are diffrent and yes malaki did dismantle the malita but recent (past two month) u can noy deny iran has show great influance with iraqi politics and the fact malaki will not leave office show to me that democracy is over in iraq, and US influence is also over so do u think we will give wepons to a government that every day passing shows they more hostile to us, just look at the sadar (iranian backed milita) doing so well in the elections. so all these talks of f16 purchase are no more the just wishful thinking especially f15, to me it seems its russian fighters and tanks for iraq. And i think out true allys in middle east aare isreal or some of the gulf nations certainly not iraq.

 

[Zaphael]

i understand the blog however its all speculation there is no evedience of any purchase wanting to buy the fighter and buying them are diffrent and yes malaki did dismantle the malita but recent (past two month) u can noy deny iran has show great influance with iraqi politics and the fact malaki will not leave office show to me that democracy is over in iraq, and US influence is also over so do u think we will give wepons to a government that every day passing shows they more hostile to us, just look at the sadar (iranian backed milita) doing so well in the elections. so all these talks of f16 purchase are no more the just wishful thinking especially f15, to me it seems its russian fighters and tanks for iraq. And i think out true allys in middle east aare isreal or some of the gulf nations certainly not iraq.

Think of it this way. By equipping Iraqi with American made weapons systems, it creates a dependency on the United States for maintaining their readiness. That eventually means that the Iraq of that future would depend on the United States for their security. We've seen how an arms embargo by the U.S. can hurt operational readiness of such a country reliant on US weapons system. Venezuela and Indonesia are adequate examples of that.

For a "new" country like the post-Saddam Iraq where much of its previous military institutions were "dismantled", it cannot afford to undermine it its external security against potential hostile neighbors like Iran or even Syria. By selling the post-Saddam Iraq the weapons systems it needs for its external defense, it would ensure that the new Iraq would remain under U.S. influence or risk undermining its own security through an embargo.

If the new Iraq was to seek a French or Russian solution to its new fighter fleet, then the U.S would lose a significant opportunity to gain a lever on Iraq. So perhaps selling American weapons systems to Iraq may not be against American interests after all?

 

[cameron200]

Think of it this way. By equipping Iraqi with American made weapons systems, it creates a dependency on the United States for maintaining their readiness. That eventually means that the Iraq of that future would depend on the United States for their security. We've seen how an arms embargo by the U.S. can hurt operational readiness of such a country reliant on US weapons system. Venezuela and Indonesia are adequate examples of that.

For a "new" country like the post-Saddam Iraq where much of its previous military institutions were "dismantled", it cannot afford to undermine it its external security against potential hostile neighbors like Iran or even Syria. By selling the post-Saddam Iraq the weapons systems it needs for its external defense, it would ensure that the new Iraq would remain under U.S. influence or risk undermining its own security through an embargo.

If the new Iraq was to seek a French or Russian solution to its new fighter fleet, then the U.S would lose a significant opportunity to gain a lever on Iraq. So perhaps selling American weapons systems to Iraq may not be against American interests after all?

i agree with u 110% but also we must understant would the US give weapons to what it seem day by day a hostel nation that is allying itself on Religious grounds to one of the US biggest enemy, but i do agree with ur comment

 

[cameron200]

cameron200, if you want documentation on the 24 F-16s the IqAF are procuring; please leave a comment here:
Montrose Toast - Blog

The Iraqis are pushing hard to get the US government to lend/lease the 112 F15s and 110 F16s that the USAF are retiring. [a total of 134 F16s are being retired . . . 24 going to Romania.]

This is in addition to the 96 new F16s and 96 other 4.5 gen fighters the IqAF wants to buy.

There have been public statements from the IMoD (Iraqi Ministry of Defense) stating that 70% of new MoD weapons procurement will go to the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force.)

Budget is an issue at present. Deficit was 19% of GDP in 2009. However, the GoI (Gov of Iraq) is projecting 12.5 million barrels/day in oil production in 7 years; versus about 2 million barrels/day in 2002. This would make Iraq the world's largest oil producer; larger than the US, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

cameron200, PM Maliki ordered to ISF (Iraqi Security Forces) to dismantle all Iranian backed Iraqi militias on March 26, 2008. My May, 2008, the Iranian backed militias had been defeated by the ISF. Since then the Iranian government has mostly behaved itself . . . as is evident in the large decline in Iraqi violence.

If Iran is perceived to be messing with Iraq again; you better not be between the ISF and Iran. The ISF will be highly motivated.

This is off topic; but I believe that America, NATO, China, India, Russia, Japan, Korea, Indonesia; the civilized world; has no better friend and ally in the middle east than Iraq. Iraqis strongly dislike Takfiri extremists; much more so than Americans or Europeans for example. If Iraqis think America is backing the extremists; then Iraqis would fight both the extremists and America. A strong Iraq benefits us all.

also the oil production every analyst have said it is impossible for iraq to reach that maybe 4-5 million still realy good but not 12 and lets not forget beffor the first gulf war opec gave a qouta of about 3 million so even if they have the potential they will not be able to sell more then that unless the pull out of opec which will make the us happy. out of intrest does any one know which version they want to buy

 

[anan]

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/iraq_10-23.pdf

"The Government of Iraq has requested a possible sale of (18) F-16IQ aircraft, (24) F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines, (36) LAU-129/A Common Rail Launchers, (24) APG-68(V)9 radar sets, (19) M61 20mm Vulcan Cannons, (200) AIM-9L/M-8/9 SIDEWINDER Missiles, (150) AIM-7M-F1/H SPARROW Missiles, (50) AGM-65D/G/H/K MAVERICK Air to Ground Missiles, (200) GBU-12 PAVEWAY II Laser Guided Bomb Units (500 pound), (50) GBU-10 PAVEWAY II Laser Guided Bomb Units (2000 pound), (50) GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bomb Units (2000 pound), (22) Advanced Countermeasures Electronic Systems (ACES) (ACES includes the ALQ-187 Electronic Warfare System and AN/ALR-93 Radar Warning Receiver), (20) AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Systems (without Mode IV), (20) Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems (INS), (Standard Positioning Service (SPS) commercial code only), (20) AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Pods, (4) F-9120 Advanced Airborne Reconnaissance Systems (AARS) or DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods (RECCE), (22) AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing Systems (CMDS); (20) Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs). Also included: site survey, support equipment, tanker support, ferry services, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), repair and return, modification kits, spares and repair parts, construction, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, ground based flight simulator, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $4.2 billion."

Some preliminary thoughts that one friend who is far better informed about the Iraqi Security Forces and aviation told me:

The F-16IQs missiles, radar and electronics are far inferior to the what Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and Oman have.

For comparison... here's the deal for Oman.

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Oman_10-40.pdf

It includes:
AIFF with mode 4 (encrypted) - Iraq receives planes without Mode 4 (so
useless for IFF in combat).
JHMCS - Iraq doesn't receive this, this is for helmet cueing of Aim-9x missiles.
HAVE Quick - Iraq receives inferior radios
ALQ-211 ECM - Iraq doesn't receive this
ALE-50 Towed Decoy - Iraq doesn't receive this

Syria has MiG29s with R77 "amraamski" and MiG25 with R40RD missiles. Iran Has F14A tomcat with AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. All three outclass the future Iraqi F16IQ.

The French/Russians/British are popping champagne bottles tonight since they will go for the "lucrative" deals. America sold Iraq the "taxis" and they are going to sell the "limos." All of this is stupidly counterproductive and the US Congress has given away Iraq on a platter to the Europeans.

Is this true? Has Iraq just bought low end dumbed down F-16IQs? Would Iraq have been better off buying F/A 50s with AIM-120C, top of the line engines [how good are the 24 F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines?], top of the line radars, top of the line electronics. And later on bought a top of the line multi role fighter with top of the line engines, radar, electronics, and missiles?

 

[OPSSG]

Is this true? Has Iraq just bought low end dumbed down F-16IQs?

No, that's not the way I see it. They are perfectly good F-16s but remember this:

Capability also resides in the people and the organization that comprise an air force. Capability is NOT found in the platform alone.​

Iraq needs to build their air force into a capable organisation and in about 10 years from now, we'll see and take stock then. Right now, they have a very limited capability. They will continue to have problems in delivering air power to the combined arms fight. More importantly, they will not be seen as competent or capable by their neighbours for quite a few years. In other words, their purchase will have limited deterrence value, at this moment.

Rome was not built in a day and Iraq needs to rebuild their capability to deliver air power. IMO, Iraq will remain, essentially a US protectorate for the next 5 to 10 years.

Would Iraq have been better off buying F/A 50s with AIM-120C, top of the line engines?

No and the issue is really trust. The US government's lack of trust for the Iraqi government, which they can't even form at the moment. The US government is offering Iraq a model of the F-16 that would not include latest-generation missiles, such as the AIM-120C7 and AIM-9X air-to-air missiles. Instead, Iraq would be offered the Raytheon AIM-9L/M-8/9 Sidewinder short-range missile, AIM-7M-F1/H Sparrow medium-range missile and AGM-65D/G/H/K Maverick air-to-ground missile. I think that is prudent move and this enables the US government to retain some future leverage.

BTW, you are making an apple to orange comparison, as the F-16 is a far more capable multi-role platform. You've neglected a little detail about the engines available when you cited them, the F-16 literally has a more powerful engine.

The Korean jet is powered by a single F404-GE-102 engine, with the following specs:

Max Diameter (Inches): 35
Length (Inches): 154
Dry Weight (Lb.): 2,282
Max. Power at Sea Level (Lb.): 17,700​

A big mouthed F-16 is powered by a single F110-GE-129 engine, with the following specs:

Max Diameter (Inches): 46.5
Length (Inches): 182.3
Dry Weight (Lb.): 3,980
Max. Power at Sea Level (Lb.): 29,000​

Beyond the engines, Iraq is also being offered the mechanically-scanned APG-68(V)9 radar. While this is not an AESA radar, it is still popular with F-16 users and several countries are still upgrading their older F-16 radar to the APG-68(V)9. A case in point would be Thailand's planned MLU of their F-16A/Bs that should be announced shortly by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

Is this true? Has Iraq just bought low end dumbed down F-16IQs? Would Iraq have been better off buying F/A 50s with AIM-120C, top of the line engines [how good are the 24 F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines?], top of the line radars, top of the line electronics. And later on bought a top of the line multi role fighter with top of the line engines, radar, electronics, and missiles?

From the above, a F-16 powered by the F110, has a bigger engine with higher specs than the F404 found in the Korean jet. So, when you drill down to the details, it's not ideal to compare then in the manner you have done.

I believe there are more upgrade options available for the F-16s and Iraq can look to Turkish industrial support to keep their F-16 fleet flying and technologically relevant for the next 20-30 years, should they encounter difficulties in retaining a skilled work force to maintain their fast jets.

IMO, the Korean jet is a very capable supersonic trainer that can be upgraded and used in a combat role but it's not designed to compete in the same market segment with the F-16. Lockheed Martin is a joint venture partner in the Korean jet and I'm sure they do not want the Korean jet to compete effectively with their own product, the F-16.

I hope that my post will encourage other members will join in the discussion and let anan have the benefit of your opinions.

 

[Toptob]

What a confusing discussion.

I think the IqAF could easily hold off on buying F-16's for a while. The F-16's are aircraft that will need a lot of support structure that is not yet available within the IqAF, and are far more expensive to operate than a light turboprop like the AT-6 they already operate.

I also think that the main threat for the coming years will lie withing Iraq itself, and those who threathen its security will not likely employ a sophisticated anti aircraft threat. I think it would be a waste to buy F-16's just to bomb insurgents, they have other aircraft that can do that. The money spend on fast jets and the accompanying infrastructure like training, airfields, industrial support and the like, would be better spend on rationalising and bolstering their existing forces.

I would like to see some more EC635's and Mi17's, and I think the caravans are very capable and cost effective platform for ISR and light attack. In a networked battlefield they could be supported by AT6's and form a credible ground attack force. But there are significant strides to be made in Iraq's military infrastructure, training and technology before the IqAF could operate in such an enviroment independantly.

Therefore, without the supporting structures in place across the whole force the F-16's will be of little more worth than an turboprop trainer. It is logical to conclude that it would be much cheaper to raise the effectiveness of the force as a whole if fast jets would not be a part of it.

I know that it takes many years and much effort to aquire a capable force of fast jet operators, and that its best to start early. But the IqAF is building from the ground up and doesnt have the resources (financial, political or otherwise) to add fast jets to its inventory. Also as a lapdog of the us and with permanent bases on its soil (with some 50 000 troops stationed on them) Iraq knows no enemy's in the region, therefore investing in quite posibly the least cost effective part of any airforce during a worldwide recession is a futile exercise at best.

 

[anan]

What a confusing discussion.

I think the IqAF could easily hold off on buying F-16's for a while. The F-16's are aircraft that will need a lot of support structure that is not yet available within the IqAF, and are far more expensive to operate than a light turboprop like the AT-6 they already operate.

I also think that the main threat for the coming years will lie withing Iraq itself, and those who threathen its security will not likely employ a sophisticated anti aircraft threat. I think it would be a waste to buy F-16's just to bomb insurgents, they have other aircraft that can do that. The money spend on fast jets and the accompanying infrastructure like training, airfields, industrial support and the like, would be better spend on rationalising and bolstering their existing forces.

I would like to see some more EC635's and Mi17's, and I think the caravans are very capable and cost effective platform for ISR and light attack. In a networked battlefield they could be supported by AT6's and form a credible ground attack force. But there are significant strides to be made in Iraq's military infrastructure, training and technology before the IqAF could operate in such an enviroment independantly.

Therefore, without the supporting structures in place across the whole force the F-16's will be of little more worth than an turboprop trainer. It is logical to conclude that it would be much cheaper to raise the effectiveness of the force as a whole if fast jets would not be a part of it.

I know that it takes many years and much effort to aquire a capable force of fast jet operators, and that its best to start early. But the IqAF is building from the ground up and doesnt have the resources (financial, political or otherwise) to add fast jets to its inventory. Also as a lapdog of the us and with permanent bases on its soil (with some 50 000 troops stationed on them) Iraq knows no enemy's in the region, therefore investing in quite posibly the least cost effective part of any airforce during a worldwide recession is a futile exercise at best.

"What a confusing discussion." Don't assume others share your confusion

Iraq needs 96 4.5 gen fighters by 2020 and needs to start procurement now to reach that target. Yes the infrastructure to maintain F-16 doesn't exist yet. It needs to be built. And it can be built. Iraq has many college educated people. Their air force college and its cadets is no joke. Iraq is likely to buy a large quantity of F-16s and will derive economies of scale in maintenance and operations costs. Another high end fighter intercepter is projected.

Iraq is likely to have a lot of tax revenue within 5 years. 12 million barrels of oil exports a day within 7 years. Do the math. The IqAF will not lack funds.

Iraq only has T-6s, no AT-6s. Agree with you that this is a mistake. Should buy light attack turboprop as well, but Iraqi MoD or IMoD and IqAF insisted on fighter aircraft first because of long lead times and their desire to have power projection capabilities independently from the US.

"I also think that the main threat for the coming years will lie withing Iraq itself, and those who threathen its security will not likely employ a sophisticated anti aircraft threat." Fundamental misunderstanding of the IMoD and GoI [Gov of Iraq] threat perception.

Between 2003 and 2008 tens of thousand of Sunni Arab [and a few Pakistani Takfiri] foreign fighters poared into Iraq. About 15 Sunni countries backed the "Iraqi resistance," providing them with billions of dollars worth of funding, training, logistics, funding, and command and control. Not that they were all that good at supporting the Iraqi resistance. They lost by late 2007.

In addition, Iran intervened heavily with Lebanese Hezbollah Arabs to counter the non Iraqi Sunni Arabs, Takfiri, and Saddamists inside Iraq. They also fought MNF-I while they were at it.

Iraq needs to be able to credibly threaten painful retaliation to convince other countries to not mess with Iraq in the future.

"would like to see some more EC635's and Mi17's, and I think the caravans are very capable and cost effective platform for ISR and light attack. In a networked battlefield they could be supported by AT6's and form a credible ground attack force." Agreed. ISF needs $19 billion per year in funding versus the $11 billion/year appropriated by Iraqi Council of Representatives. This estimate comes from US Forces Iraq.

Most ISF procurement was cancelled/delayed in the spring of 2008, within weeks of the Iraqi civil war ending [1980-2008 civil war probably ended for most practical purposes in May, 2008.] This was done to reduce the massive Iraqi budget deficit and adjust to the crashing price of oil.

"But there are significant strides to be made in Iraq's military infrastructure, training and technology before the IqAF could operate in such an enviroment independantly." Agreed. Council of Representatives needs to provide funding for this. IMoD and Iraqi MoI have large numbers of quality 3 year and 4 year cadets. Between them and US Forces Iraq and NATO Training Mission-Iraq the human capital exists.

"without the supporting structures in place across the whole force the F-16's will be of little more worth than an turboprop trainer." True. But Iraqis very much want the 18 F-16s ASAP. Iraqi public also wants a decent air force.

"as a lapdog of the us and with permanent bases on its soil" In what way are Iraqis a lapdog of any country? Iraqis are very proud and jealous of their soverignty.

'(with some 50 000 troops stationed on them) Iraq knows no enemy's in the region'
LOL. Iraqis don't agree with you. If you were Iraqi, would you trust your neighbors? The US is drawing down to 30 K trainers and even lower at a rapid clip. The US had many troops in Iraq 2003-2008. Did the US protect Iraq from its neighbors? Did the US ever seriously threaten Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Libya between 2003-2008 and and ask them to stop messing with Iraq and trying to mass murder Iraqis? Can Iraqis rely on the US excessively to protect themselves?

 

[anan]

The Iraqi Air Force [IqAF] procurement urgency is driven by many factors. This is despite the substantial projected Iraqi budget deficit which is projected to be about $19 billion in fiscal 2011.
Iraq's new budget puts deficit at $18.6bn


Some of the reasons buying multi-role supersonic fighter aircraft quickly is so important for Iraq:

1) Iraqi PM Maliki, many parts of the Iraqi establishment, and the Najaf Marjeya [the most important and respected religious leaders for the world's 150 million Shiite muslims] all refused to congratulate Ahmadinejad for his election victory in 2009. Much of the Iraqi establishment are perceived to have good relations with the Iranian green movement which is opposed to Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, IRGC Kuds Force. In case the green movement loses [still a greater than 50% chance Ahmadinejad/Khamenei are destabilized by the greens], Iraq needs protection from the Ahmadinejad/Khamenei/IRGC Kuds Force syndicate.

2) Iraq was unnerved by the $60 billion procurement order by the Saudi military. Iraqis are deeply suspicious about the Sunni Arab countries, especially given their support for the Iraqi resistance 2003-2007 [a la Baa3thists, Al Qaeda linked networks and some assorted Sunni Arab militia]

2b) Syrian, Jordanian, Kuwaiti, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Libyan procurement also unnerves Iraqis

Interestingly enough, Egypt spending $133 million per F16 block 52 aircraft for a total of 24 aircraft and $3.2 billion [Order includes associated parts, equipment, and weapons.] might not unnerve Iraq as much as other Arab procurement.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...paign=Feed:+did/rss+(Defense+Industry+Daily%2

Note that Egypt's relations with the nascent forming Iraqi establishment and Iraqi government was very poor 2003-2007. Since 2008, however, Egypt has emerged as one of Iraq's closest allies [along with Turkey, France, Russia, the US, Serbia, South Korea, some other NATO countries . . . the NATO Training Mission Iraq trains the ISF; perhaps Iraq and China will form a close partnership]

The reversal is stunning and surprising. No other Sunni Arab country has established similarly close relations with Iraq. Kudos to Egypt for doing the right thing, however I wonder why the Egyptians are doing it. Could it be because Egypt fears Ahmadinejad/Khamenei/IRGC Kuds Force syndicate and their nuclear weapons program?

Whatever the case, would draw attention to the fact that Egypt's F16s are even more gimped than the 18 planned Iraqi F16IQs . They don't have any BVR aams. [This was pointed out to me by a friend who knows far more about the ISF, Iraq and aviation than I do.]

Be curious to see what the Iraqi F16IQs run per aircraft. Are the Iraqi F16IQs modified block 52? How much extra would F16 block 60 aircraft cost, given that the UAE derives royalties from block 60 sales?

Why are Egypt and Iraq not paying up for block 60 F-16s? Or are they to some extent paying up for a modified F16 block 60?

To change the topic, there are some in the Iraqi establishment that seek to form a closer partnership with China. China already is Iraq's largest trading and investment partner. Some Iraqis wish to solidify this relationship by buying Chinese L15 Hongdu supersonic lead in trainers and JF-17 Pakistani/Chinese fighters.

Any thoughts?

 

[Belesari]

Putting aside the fact that im american i wouldnt buy the JF-17. Pakistan is just to unstable for me. You dont want to spend billions to find out that half of it is gone to a black whole if the Islamic militants there win (which it doesnt look impossible) and bring the country into a state of chaos. And china always has strings.......long long strings.

I believe almaliki is friendly towards Iran for the moment because he isnt crazy they dont need a war right now. With the present shaky political administration here in the US you cant really tell what would happen. Give it a few years as things improve in Iraq they will be willing to asert themselves more.

But yea me i'd personaly like to see the Iraq's with F-35s. But sense that wont happen for a bit i'd say f-16's are the best bet. They dont need alot of range and its a good fighter with some land attack capability.

And dont they have something like 50 bil saved away? Or is that being eating up by expanding government programs and procurement.

I have alot of hope for Iraq's i've talked to alot of guys who fought beside and lived and worked with them. I figure out of all the ME countries they and jordan have the potential of joining Israel as our best allies in the region.

 

[tonnyc]

This is a request for information, particularly from people in Iraq or have access to Iraqi media since I don't understand the language and thus can't do my own research.

Iraq and South Korea just signed a contract for 24 T-50IQ worth an estimated 1.1 billion dollar. This is actually a bit high even if we account for the training and weapons and logistics. Weapon-wise, the FA-50 is not yet certified for AMRAAM, so the weapons won't include that unless Iraq is paying KAI to rush the certification. Elsewhere I hear speculation that the Israeli radar will have to be replaced with something else since it's politically a no-go in Iraq. There is even speculation about new engines (very skeptical about this).

Currently there is no info regarding the actual configuration. If anyone hear any news regarding the T-50IQ configuration from either Iraqi or Korean language sources, please share it here.

 

[King Wally]

I read today that the US gov was clearing an expression of interest for the Iraqi Air force to purchase 24 Longbow Apache. Will definitely be a capability jump if they go ahead with this! All up The Iraqi Air force appears to be rebuilding pretty solidly .

 

[Feanor]

I read today that the US gov was clearing an expression of interest for the Iraqi Air force to purchase 24 Longbow Apache. Will definitely be a capability jump if they go ahead with this! All up The Iraqi Air force appears to be rebuilding pretty solidly .

Yep. Apparently 12 of them will carry the Longbow radar, and they're being bought with 480 Hellfire missiles. CAST cites the cost as 4.8 bln USD. This is in addition to already bought Mi-28NEs, and Mi-35Ms. They're also trying to rent 6 Apaches to serve in the meanwhile.

bmpd -

 

[airwingspotter]

saw the Iraqi F-16D went up on test flight in NAS Ft worth last SAt!.. very nice camo scheme!

I will post pic here when I can ...

DaveC