Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Aussie Digger]

Do Australian infantrymen train for cold-weather warfare or is that only limited to Australian SF?

There is a course for it, that any Army unit could undertake if necessary, but it's not something that any ADF unit, trains for on a regular basis, even SF units.

In fact the last one I even heard of, involved 1 Cdo Regt, part time operators and that was some years ago. Army nowadays is concentrating on it's primary roles and it's heavy deployment schedule. Such niche training opportunities, have an understandably low priority...

Cold weather warfare is certainly not an Australian speciality, for obvious reasons and even though there is some requirement for Australian forces to operate in the cold weather (including snow) in Afghanistan's winter months, the operations themselves aren't changed much by this weather, it's just that clothing, shelter, food intake, health support (frostbite, exposure etc) has to be modified to cater for the more extreme conditions.

Cheers,

AD

 

[gf0012-aust]

Do Australian infantrymen train for cold-weather warfare or is that only limited to Australian SF?

there are a few specialised elements that do cold weather training in countries like Norway, but general service elements do not. fitout would be the direct change for general service elements

 

[t68]

It's the number of vehicles that the Australian Army are likely to deploy on operations...

All deployed vehicles have a slightly different configuration to those used in Australia for training activities. ASLAV Phase IV upgrade is simply taking that idea one step further.

As to the 257x ASLAV vehicles, you are not counting attrition on overseas deployments in that number. Many have been worn out through hard operational experience (ASLAV's have been on constant operational deployment for more than 10x years now) or through direct combat losses. Not all of that 257 vehicle fleet is still in-service...

Cheers

AD

AD, sorry for the delay in reply the computer went in to melt down mode and lost all data on it (back to square one)
Have you got any info or where to look for the ASLAV attrition/lose and how many we have left?
Would getting the planed 30 NZLAV sell off be suited to the ADF in exchange for Bushmaster for the NZDF?

 

[rossfrb_1]

AD, sorry for the delay in reply the computer went in to melt down mode and lost all data on it (back to square one)
Have you got any info or where to look for the ASLAV attrition/lose and how many we have left?
Would getting the planed 30 NZLAV sell off be suited to the ADF in exchange for Bushmaster for the NZDF?

NZLAV is based on LAV III variant, ASLAV is based on LAV II variant.
I am not aware of the immediate differences between the two, but I suspect there would be enough that ADF would not buy the kiwi kit.

 

[Aussie Digger]

AD, sorry for the delay in reply the computer went in to melt down mode and lost all data on it (back to square one)
Have you got any info or where to look for the ASLAV attrition/lose and how many we have left?
Would getting the planed 30 NZLAV sell off be suited to the ADF in exchange for Bushmaster for the NZDF?

Not really. You could write Army, but they might see it as a national security issue, so they might not answer...

Our operational fleet of ASLAV's is well below 257 nowadays though. I very much doubt we'd buy 2nd hand NZLAVIII's. They are of a different standard to ours as mentioned already and our loss of ASLAV's is not so great as to effect our operational or domestic tasking, but might if a bigger deployment were on the cards...

WE are also only a few years away from LAND400 ramping up, and I expect it could be accelerated, if an urgent operational requirement necessitated it...

With the additional Bushmaster, M113AS4 vehicles coming online and the new armored vehicles under Project Overlander Phase IV to be acquired, I think we are pretty well covered for light armor in the next 10 years or so...

 

[recce.k1]

t68 & co, found some interesting comparative data on the Piranha, LAV and Stryker families, everything from engine, gearbox ........

http://www.dfeeler.com/forecastinc/sampledocs/MilitaryVehicles/Piranha.doc

(The above links to a Military Vehicles Forecast Microsoft Word document).

******************************
AD/mods (or OPSSG - just noticed you've logged in): the following is in the public domain but please delete if inappropriate...

 

[OPSSG]

recce.k1, I took a quick look at the links to the open source docs you posted, IMO, they are fine for public consumption, so I'll leave them untouched.

 

[boomerangman]

Recruitment questions.

Plenty of rumours, but little of substance. There is a rumour that Australia will order one more C-17 for ourselves and then order a "joint" C-17 with NZ and "pool" our C-17 transport capabilities between the 2 nations with NZ obviously gaining a level of access commensurate with their requirements and level of investment in the capability.

I think part of the issue, is the strange inclusion of the "2x additional" C-130J-30's in the White Paper. RAAF doesn't seem overly enthused about them and indeed has publicly voiced concerns about operating fleets of the same aircraft but with mixed airframe fatigue life etc, bearing in mind that the existing fleet is now over 10 years old.

I guess RAAF's understandable perspective is, if we have money available and we need more airlift, than a C-17 offers far more bang for buck than a C-130J-30, or even 2 of them (though not in concurrent taskings obviously).

Combined with the battlefield airlifter, a C-130J-30, C-17 and C-27J/C-295 fleet of 27x aircraft beats the hell out of a C-130J-30, C-130H and Caribou fleet of 38x aircraft in overall airlift capability and in concurrent operations capability for modern combat operations, given the Caribou's complete lack of capability to operate in a modern battlespace where there is ANY sort of threat...

If NZ wants to help invest in such a capability as well, to add a 6th C-17A aircraft to the fleet and operated in a joint manner, than so much the better for both Countries.

Still, NZ has to deliver a White Paper in the next month or so and Australia has to decide on a Government and a new Defence Minister (either way) along with an updated defence capability plan due out before years end, so I don't expect a decision for a while just yet.

In a couple of months we should have a clearer picture if such is likely...

Hello,

Firstly, I have enjoyed reading these posts and are a wealth of information. Good job! I was wondering if I could ask a couple of questions regarding joining the RAAF coming from the other end of the age spectrum that is Im not 18 years old. Im sorry if it may be off the topic a little bit but I had to google you to find this site. Thanks in advance for reading.
Iam have just finished serving with the US military working as an army MP and also CA in a Guard unit here in Texas. I reached staff sergeant and have lots of security related experience without going into what I did and also have all the top clearance levels. I have also worked as civilian police officer recently at a major base here in Texas. Iam currently 46 years old and in tip top condition and was wondering if the australian military would take someone like me even though I may be a little over the hill. I guess an important note to make is that Iam an Australian citizen and looking to return to Australia due to family sickness. I sent an email to a recuiter about a year ago asking about a lateral transfer but because Iam an Australian citizen he said that I wouldnt qualify for that program. My next question is I would imagine that I would have to start off at the bottom again but would really like to join secpol with the RAAF. How would someone like myself fit in and would it be a good fit? As stated Iam aware of military standards and have no issues with any fitness level and I am in excellant condition.
I know based on my experience I would be a great asset but would like any input or suggestions that your forum may have on this topic.

Thanks!:smilie

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hello,

Firstly, I have enjoyed reading these posts and are a wealth of information. Good job! I was wondering if I could ask a couple of questions regarding joining the RAAF coming from the other end of the age spectrum that is Im not 18 years old. Im sorry if it may be off the topic a little bit but I had to google you to find this site. Thanks in advance for reading.

You're welcome. Hope you stick around and enjoy the site.

Iam have just finished serving with the US military working as an army MP and also CA in a Guard unit here in Texas. I reached staff sergeant and have lots of security related experience without going into what I did and also have all the top clearance levels. I have also worked as civilian police officer recently at a major base here in Texas. Iam currently 46 years old and in tip top condition and was wondering if the australian military would take someone like me even though I may be a little over the hill. I guess an important note to make is that Iam an Australian citizen and looking to return to Australia due to family sickness. I sent an email to a recuiter about a year ago asking about a lateral transfer but because Iam an Australian citizen he said that I wouldnt qualify for that program. My next question is I would imagine that I would have to start off at the bottom again but would really like to join secpol with the RAAF. How would someone like myself fit in and would it be a good fit? As stated Iam aware of military standards and have no issues with any fitness level and I am in excellant condition.
I know based on my experience I would be a great asset but would like any input or suggestions that your forum may have on this topic.

Thanks!:smilie

Not sure mate, though I've considered re-joining myself. I've been out for nearly 10 years and the itch to get back in is increasing every year...

ADF have advertised a new position within ADFIS (Australian Defence Force Investigative Service) that is available to certain qualified persons. That might be your best bet...

It's probably what I would pursue as well, if I can get off my arse at some point...

Your only hope is to contact Australian Defence Force recruiting directly and see what they can advise. Your age won't count against you however. It is illegal to do so, nowadays...

Here's a link to the new positions.

Australian Defence Force Investigator | Defence Jobs

Regards,

AD

 

[OpinionNoted]

i was wondering if the sept 2 release of the movie...Tomorrow When The War Began...was selling a pacicfic nato to australian audiences,then thought mabey im being a bit conspiritorial

now

i ve just come across the remake of the american movie...Red Dawn...to be released on nov 24,
both are invasion movies, one where australias invaded by an asian power and the other america is invaded by china and russia.

 

[ddub321]

Actually it was Cuba & Russia that invaded America in Red Dawn. Used to love that movie years ago when I was a kid.

John Marsden wrote the book Tomorrow When The War Began about 10 years ago I think. It's pretty similar to Red Dawn, I think it's just a rip off of the same story set in Australia (albeit with a few differences).

Mod. re what i hilighted... perhaps if you knew the author you'd realise that it was done before "red dawn". In that case "Red Dawn" can be regarded as a cheap copy.

I'd suggest doing some homework before jumping and making enthusiastic claims

 

[lopez]

Actually it was Cuba & Russia that invaded America in Red Dawn. Used to love that movie years ago when I was a kid.

John Marsden wrote the book Tomorrow When The War Began about 10 years ago I think. It's pretty similar to Red Dawn, I think it's just a rip off of the same story set in Australia (albeit with a few differences).

it is getting closer to twenty years old now...

first published in 1993.

 

[LancasterBomber]

John Marsden wrote the book Tomorrow When The War Began about 10 years ago I think. It's pretty similar to Red Dawn, I think it's just a rip off of the same story set in Australia (albeit with a few differences).

Yep you can delete that post. That is a pathetic snip at a very highly regarded Australian author.

Lucky I am not a mod cos you would be telling your story walking....I hate crappy attacks on other people like that.

The movie adaptation actually annoyed me and sat very uneasily with me. The books were a real achievement due to the rich character development and focus on the human elements associated with displacement. However the movie is a real disaster. IMO it just didnt work.

A typical nonsense only Hollywood would put its name too.

Anyway back to the real discussion.........

 

[blueorchid]

there are a few specialised elements that do cold weather training in countries like Norway, but general service elements do not. fitout would be the direct change for general service elements

Just noticed in the latest RAAF News,16th September on pages 12 - 13 that 1 Airfield Defence Sqn. has deployed to Alpine country,Dinner Plains,Victoria for High Altitude Operating Base training.

Cheers

 

[ddub321]

Yep you can delete that post. That is a pathetic snip at a very highly regarded Australian author.

Lucky I am not a mod cos you would be telling your story walking....I hate crappy attacks on other people like that.

The movie adaptation actually annoyed me and sat very uneasily with me. The books were a real achievement due to the rich character development and focus on the human elements associated with displacement. However the movie is a real disaster. IMO it just didnt work.

A typical nonsense only Hollywood would put its name too.

Anyway back to the real discussion.........

Ok fair call.

I didn't word that very well. What I mean is that Red Dawn first screened in 1984, and tomorrow when the war began was published in 1993. In my mind I always felt red dawn could've been an 'inspiration' for John Marsden's book, although GF you are right I don't know the author and he could have written the story any length of time before it was published. I withdraw my previous comment.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I withdraw my previous comment.

no harm, no foul.

 

[hairyman]

From "The Australian" 21/9/10.

AN Australian soldier has claimed his colleagues are dying in Afghanistan because of misinformation and a lack of support on the front line.
In an email obtained by News Limited newspapers, the soldier claims Digger Jared MacKinney would be alive if troops had been given adequate fire support and better intelligence.

The soldier said it was a miracle five or six more Australians had not been killed during the battle of Derapet on August 24.

He said the army had exposed troops to unnecessary risks.

“That contact would have been over before Jared died if they gave us f.....g mortars,” the soldier said in his email.

It also detailed how no intelligence reports had prepared the two sections of about 24 men each for a confrontation with up to 100 enemy attacking from multiple firing positions as close as 80m away.

“We were at times pinned down by a massive rate of fire but we stuck to it,” he wrote.

“The army has let us down mate and I am disgusted.”

I hope they put more effort into correcting the lack of intelligence and mortars than they do into trying to find the identidy of the author of the email.

 

[riksavage]

From "The Australian" 21/9/10.

AN Australian soldier has claimed his colleagues are dying in Afghanistan because of misinformation and a lack of support on the front line.
In an email obtained by News Limited newspapers, the soldier claims Digger Jared MacKinney would be alive if troops had been given adequate fire support and better intelligence.

The soldier said it was a miracle five or six more Australians had not been killed during the battle of Derapet on August 24.

He said the army had exposed troops to unnecessary risks.

“That contact would have been over before Jared died if they gave us f.....g mortars,” the soldier said in his email.

It also detailed how no intelligence reports had prepared the two sections of about 24 men each for a confrontation with up to 100 enemy attacking from multiple firing positions as close as 80m away.

“We were at times pinned down by a massive rate of fire but we stuck to it,” he wrote.

“The army has let us down mate and I am disgusted.”

I hope they put more effort into correcting the lack of intelligence and mortars than they do into trying to find the identidy of the author of the email.

The problem with western politicians is most have never worn a uniform or been on a military operation (other than the occasional meet & greet publicity stunt) and focus too much of their efforts on: A - demonstrating support for ones Allies at the cheapest cost, and B - achieve the former with the fewest resources possible in a vain hope the casualties will be kept to an absolute minimum. Unfortunately cost cutting and keeping deployed troops to minimum increases, not decreases the likelihood of a higher causality ratio.

 

[the road runner]

Hairyman,i read the article and for me this has always been a point that has stuck in my mind.
That is our boys on the ground dont have there own Air Support.If i remember correct the Dutch were supporting our boys with there apaches,but the Dutch have pulled out

Now the US Army/Marine support our troops.From an Australian Citizens point of view I am starting to think the Australian government has sent our boys in harms way with inadequate support.The point of not having our Own Air support has always stuck in my mind and i hope it dosent bite us in the ass.

Hairyman the article also states that 2 Lavs provided over watch and that they did there job well.
Also intel was very bad,or so the article states.

i would take the article with a pinch of salt but i do hope we get some Tigers over to support the 6th.

Here is a response from Army

Digger's email: Army failing frontline troops | The Daily Telegraph

like this line from Lt General Mark Evans...."It's not helpful when armchair generals talk about what should be done. You go there and do the job."

Regards

 

[riksavage]

Hairyman,i read the article and for me this has always been a point that has stuck in my mind.
That is our boys on the ground dont have there own Air Support.If i remember correct the Dutch were supporting our boys with there apaches,but the Dutch have pulled out

Now the US Army/Marine support our troops.From an Australian Citizens point of view I am starting to think the Australian government has sent our boys in harms way with inadequate support.The point of not having our Own Air support has always stuck in my mind and i hope it dosent bite us in the ass.

Hairyman the article also states that 2 Lavs provided over watch and that they did there job well.
Also intel was very bad,or so the article states.

i would take the article with a pinch of salt but i do hope we get some Tigers over to support the 6th.

Here is a response from Army

Digger's email: Army failing frontline troops | The Daily Telegraph

like this line from Lt General Mark Evans...."It's not helpful when armchair generals talk about what should be done. You go there and do the job."

Regards

Relying on LAV's to provide overwatch is limited. A relatively small calibre direct fire weapon can only aim at what it can see and can't fire smoke over extended ranges. The troops on the ground needed indirect fire support from 81mm mortars and/or 105mm's, which can lob fire infront, on (smoke) or behind the troops under fire.

Australia already has gunners attached to UK 105mm batteries, why not simply redeploy these assets to fire Aussie 105mm's from the FOB's where the patrols are based? You then have a 12km+ perimeter wide field of protection on call 24-7 - cheap and almost instantaneous once the FOO has radioed in his fire control order, plus you have HE, smoke and illumination at your disposal.

Do the Aussies have any LAV's fitted with mortars and not bushmaster turrets?