Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

tphuang

Super Moderator
Struggling is not a bad thing. Chinese are well on way to make 3rd SSN model. JL 2 repeated failures? maybe but China is very top secret on weapons programs so unlikely to announce if successful or not.
To confirm successful military programs in PRC, we rely on photos such as seen with J 10, however since missile is placed in submarine, we unlikely gonna get any proof. Unless the navy allows someone to take picture of missiles in their hatchs, very unlikely. :p:
I think the guy in that blog has no clue what he is talking when it comes to Chinese program. He should stick to talking about IN. We actually have pictures of JL-2 getting launched (shown as part of a media broadcast) or at least we think it's JL-2.

But when it comes to India, I think if PLAN's experience is any indication, IN should be patient and take a long term view on this and no get frustrated. Developing and building nuclear submarine is one of the hardest things to do.
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #362
I know i quoted that in my previous post a 700-1200 km ranged missile, however that is not a nuclear deterrent, just to deliver the missile the submarine will have to go near shore, and the longer ranged missile is not going to come up in 4-5 years.
A 1900 km range nuclear tipped missile is a start considering that we are just beginning work on operationalising the third leg of the nuclear triad. and with the expected development of Agni V we will have most of our immediate neighbours covered in terms of reach and delivery of a nuclear payload. Also like i mentioned the development work on extending the range is started. The time frame of 4-5 years should be fine considering that INS Arihant will take more time and still is being referred to as a Technology Demonstrator. We are behind in these technologies but we are playing catch-up


Its been near 10 years since the sivalik and kolkata class projects, and we dont have much to show for these 10 years, every single delay caused more delays (as technology keeps on jumping).

Right now a lot of orders are in the shipyards or in the MoD, and if the same BS (that happened with the shivalik and kolkata class projects, and is happening in the scorpene class project) continues then i have little hope of the navy actually meeting its potential even after the funds have been provided.
I think you need to check on all the vessels inducted since 2000. Let me get you a link

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Indian_Navy"]Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:INS_Viraat_(R22)_Malabar_07.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/INS_Viraat_%28R22%29_Malabar_07.jpg/250px-INS_Viraat_%28R22%29_Malabar_07.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/bd/INS_Viraat_%28R22%29_Malabar_07.jpg/250px-INS_Viraat_%28R22%29_Malabar_07.jpg[/ame]

Without checking in detail, it mentions 38 ships+subs under various stages of construction and another 80 planned for the next decade and a half

Despite not being a 100% reliable source wikipedia does a decent job in collecting secondary data so it gives one a overall idea so dont go berrating me people about it...
 

funtz

New Member
A 1900 km range nuclear tipped missile is a start considering that we are just beginning work on operationalising the third leg of the nuclear triad. and with the expected development of Agni V we will have most of our immediate neighbours covered in terms of reach and delivery of a nuclear payload. Also like i mentioned the development work on extending the range is started. The time frame of 4-5 years should be fine considering that INS Arihant will take more time and still is being referred to as a Technology Demonstrator. We are behind in these technologies but we are playing catch-up
I doubt one could state that they can just increase the range of a 700km missile all the way up to 1900 kms just by reducing the payload, the maximum payload capacity has to have a reason.


I think you need to check on all the vessels inducted since 2000. Let me get you a link

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Without checking in detail, it mentions 38 ships+subs under various stages of construction and another 80 planned for the next decade and a half

Despite not being a 100% reliable source wikipedia does a decent job in collecting secondary data so it gives one a overall idea so dont go berrating me people about it...
Its really not that hard to check on these things on, the whole point that i stated was that for the last decade many of the shipbuilding programs were delayed many times over which had an impact on the number and type of vessels serving right now with the Indian Navy, there is nothing to berate anyone about, every article has its sources listed which can be checked.
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #364
I doubt one could state that they can just increase the range of a 700km missile all the way up to 1900 kms just by reducing the payload, the maximum payload capacity has to have a reason.
What it states is that the 700 km range is with a 1000 kg payload and a 1900 km range with a 180 kg payload, i am assuming a 180 kg payload capacity is enough to deliver a tactical nuclear payload. I think we both agree that the current capability is being developed and is going steady while it is not enough deterrent in terms of reach currently it is still a start to the indigenousl development of SLBM systems and that we are sure that with time systems with better ranges and capabilities will be developed to take care of the nations nuclear deterrent requirements

Edit: A 180 kg warhead would be enough to deliver a 17kt FBF warhead, a common configuration for both the sagarika and shaurya missiles

Its really not that hard to check on these things on, the whole point that i stated was that for the last decade many of the shipbuilding programs were delayed many times over which had an impact on the number and type of vessels serving right now with the Indian Navy, there is nothing to berate anyone about, every article has its sources listed which can be checked.
Great and my point was that IN has done a better job in planning and acquiring surface fleet since it is involved from a design phase while the IA and IAF have done a poor job in comparison in acquisition of weapon systems, also i reiterate that IN has a poor record in maintaining and acquiring sub-surface systems. The last para of my quote was just to prevent members of the forum against pooh-pooing wikipedia as a source
 
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kay_man

New Member
UK willing to sell India next-gen carrier

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 21st Sept 10

I was taken aback last week to receive an invitation from BAE Systems, the world’s third-richest arms corporation, for a four-day media tour to the UK. What surprised me was not the invitation. The rate at which India is buying up foreign weaponry, global arms merchants, eager for publicity, would happily pay for our small defence journalist community to globetrot through the year. What was remarkable in the BAE invitation was the company’s proposal to fly us to Glasgow for the launch of a new Royal Navy destroyer and a tour of other warships. Why, I wondered, was British shipbuilding being showcased to India in the absence of a plan to buy a warship from the UK?

A few phone calls later I had my answer! A cash-strapped UK defence ministry, unable to pay for the two aircraft carriers on order with BAE Systems, had offered one of them to New Delhi. In the circumstances, a few news reports in India on “high-quality British shipbuilding” could only be useful.

Given that the Indian Navy already has four aircraft carriers in the pipeline — the lame but functional INS Viraat; the infamous Gorshkov (renamed INS Vikramaditya), being constructed in Russia; a third (so far unnamed) carrier being built in Cochin Shipyard; and another to follow that — Britain’s offer of yet another carrier might be considered wildly optimistic. But desperate times demand desperate measures and the UK is conducting its greatest strategic downsizing since the 1968 retreat from the Suez. David Cameron’s new government has initiated a strategic defence and security review (SDSR), which involves defence spending cuts of 20-30 per cent to bring down military expenditure to below 2 per cent of GDP.
Amongst the several multi-billion pound programmes that seem certain to be pared is the Carrier Vessels Future (CVF) programme: the £5 billion ($8 billion) construction, mainly in British shipyards, of two 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers called the HMS Queen Elizabeth and the HMS Prince of Wales. These were ordered before the global economic downturn; the Labour government thought they were essential for the Royal Navy to retain its centuries-old capability to project power across the globe. Even amidst today’s cost-cutting, current defence secretary Liam Fox had hoped to build both carriers, operating only one with the other kept in reserve. But just days ago, BAE boss Ian King revealed that the government had asked BAE Systems to evaluate the cost of cancelling the CVF programme entirely.

With £1.2 billion ($1.8 billion) already spent on the CVF, and 4,000 skilled workers busy fabricating the Queen Elizabeth, London knows that an outright cancellation would ruin Britain’s shipbuilding industry. And so, one of the aircraft carriers hopes to wash up on India’s shores.

The government of India must quickly decline the British offer. London could be forgiven for concluding from the fact that four Indian warships are on order from Russian shipyards, and the Indian Navy wants to build more abroad, that Indian shipyards cannot meet the country’s maritime security needs. The truth, however, is that India looks abroad for warships because of the MoD’s inability to streamline planning, sanctions and procedures, and to bring together the skills of the multiple agencies that contribute towards developing and building a warship.

Consider our production facilities. The MoD owns and controls four defence shipyards: Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL); Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE); Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL); and the recently (and misguidedly) acquired Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, Visakhapatnam (HSL). Then there is Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL), a central PSU, which is building an aircraft carrier for the MoD since none of the MoD shipyards has facilities large enough for this. And, very recently, there is the emergence of state-of-the-art private sector shipyards — L&T, Pipavav and ABG Shipyards — with global-quality facilities.

Also in the production loop is the Directorate General of Naval Design (DGND), which has achieved notable success in the conceptual design of the Indian Navy’s recent warships. Each shipyard, too, has its own design department, which translates the DGND’s conceptual design into engineering drawings of the thousands of components that make up a ship. Then there are Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratories, which produce high-technology systems like sonars, radars, torpedoes etc., many of which money cannot buy. The existence of these technology labs is a key attribute of a warship-building country.

Finally, there are the educational institutions that feed into, and off, these agencies: the departments of naval architecture in IITs and universities; research departments in colleges and universities that feed into DRDO laboratories and assist them by taking on research projects.

India has, in varying degrees, every component of this ecosystem. The MoD must bring them together, compensating for one component’s weaknesses by harnessing another’s strengths. Instead, South Block’s proclivity to view each entity individually creates the impression of a shortfall of capacity.

Consider how the MoD is processing India’s second submarine line, allowing two of the six submarines to be built abroad although massive capacities will lie unutilised in L&T and Pipavav (Business Standard has carried a four-article series on this from August 30 to September 2). Here is the MoD’s logic: Pipavav has the facilities but not the experience; L&T has the experience, but not the facilities; MDL has both, but it doesn’t have the capacity!

Astonishingly, South Block considers it preferable to buy submarines from a foreign shipyard, rather than bringing together Indian capabilities that could produce them far cheaper, create jobs and build capacities. The MoD must be stopped from building abroad. India needs a significant navy but it can only afford to build up quickly if the MoD brings together the warship-building eco-system. Indian money must build Indian capabilities, not pay for British shipbuilding industry to survive.
 

s.raptorski

New Member
I am all for the acquisition of QE carrier if the price is right. IAC-II can wait till we have matured tech at our disposal. We havenot even decided on whether to go for nuclear propulsion for IAC-II or, not. In the mean time Cochin shipyard can be utilized to make some ships of Mistral/Juan Carlos class vessels.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Actually this one's not a rumour. I remember reading on bbc.co.uk about it. You can probably google it.
Yes it is a rumour. Look up the definition of rumour.

The story linked to is one of the many expressions of the rumour. Note the date: November 2009. It isn't connected to the latest manifestation of it, which claims that Prince of Wales has been offered to India by BAe, despite the British government not having made a formal decision yet on what to do with the carriers.

I suspect this may have been started by someone at BAe making an informal enquiry about whether, in the purely hypothetical case that the UK decides not to buy both the carriers it has on order, & under construction, India might, perhaps, be interested in buying the second one. Such an enquiry would be perfectly normal, in the circumstances, & means nothing. It assumes nothing about what the British government might do.

The Kitty Hawk farrago started in a similar way, with a fairly low ranking US navy officer making a completely unofficial remark about a purely hypothetical scenario. Within a day, it had been transmuted by the magic of the interweb & the Indian press into a firm offer, & even some Indian MoD officials were soon talking as if it was real.
 

shag

New Member
Both the news sources say there was some talk on the matter, none says the offer for sale was made. It would be a rumour if people started saying "AC was offered" isn't it?
I don't see anything far fetched in what was reported by Col Ajai Shukla or guardian. btw the link I posted is from a British tabloid(Guardian) not Indian. Can some British person tell me what is guardian's reputation on good reporting? I know mainstream indian media itself has a poor reputation, mostly well deserved :p

On a side note do you find it difficult to believe that given the massive cutdown in British military spending they maybe thinking of cutting costs on their carrier program? In any case this won't be the first time Britain sold a carrier to India. Both our previous carriers were British though not as brand new.
Yea but I agree with you, they will not make the offer of the AC, there would obviously be some concern sharing the tech and then there is that standard thinking that prevents selling high end systems to any non-western country (They might use it against us).
Note : A large part of Indian navy even today is based on British designs that were sold in earlier decades.
 

1805

New Member
Both the news sources say there was some talk on the matter, none says the offer for sale was made. It would be a rumour if people started saying "AC was offered" isn't it?
I don't see anything far fetched in what was reported by Col Ajai Shukla or guardian. btw the link I posted is from a British tabloid(Guardian) not Indian. Can some British person tell me what is guardian's reputation on good reporting? I know mainstream indian media itself has a poor reputation, mostly well deserved :p

On a side note do you find it difficult to believe that given the massive cutdown in British military spending they maybe thinking of cutting costs on their carrier program? In any case this won't be the first time Britain sold a carrier to India. Both our previous carriers were British though not as brand new.
Yea but I agree with you, they will not make the offer of the AC, there would obviously be some concern sharing the tech and then there is that standard thinking that prevents selling high end systems to any non-western country (They might use it against us).
Note : A large part of Indian navy even today is based on British designs that were sold in earlier decades.
I don't think there would be any issue with selling the technology, I think the UK would be only to happy to. India is a friendly power. After all the UK is actively supporting the sale of Tyhoon jets, so a carrier is not going to be an issue. I would be very supportive of a sale, as long as this is not at the expense of the RN operating 2 carriers, in the long run.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Both the news sources say there was some talk on the matter, none says the offer for sale was made. It would be a rumour if people started saying "AC was offered" isn't it?
I don't see anything far fetched in what was reported by Col Ajai Shukla or guardian. btw the link I posted is from a British tabloid(Guardian) not Indian. Can some British person tell me what is guardian's reputation on good reporting? I know mainstream indian media itself has a poor reputation, mostly well deserved :p

On a side note do you find it difficult to believe that given the massive cutdown in British military spending they maybe thinking of cutting costs on their carrier program? In any case this won't be the first time Britain sold a carrier to India. Both our previous carriers were British though not as brand new. .
You've not read what's been said, and you still don't know what 'rumour; means. Trust me on this: when I qualified to teach English I had the highest marks for language proficiency of the students on my course. This is a rumour.

The offer can not have been made, because nobody has been authorised to make it. It's far-fetched because of that. Also, we know such rumours are almost always false, so why this unthinking acceptance of them?

BTW, the Guardian is not a tabloid, it's a broadsheet, & I think you'll find that it didn't originate the story, but got it from Indian sources.
 

1805

New Member
You've not read what's been said, and you still don't know what 'rumour; means. Trust me on this: when I qualified to teach English I had the highest marks for language proficiency of the students on my course. This is a rumour.

The offer can not have been made, because nobody has been authorised to make it. It's far-fetched because of that. Also, we know such rumours are almost always false, so why this unthinking acceptance of them?

BTW, the Guardian is not a tabloid, it's a broadsheet, & I think you'll find that it didn't originate the story, but got it from Indian sources.
I agree with all you say, apart from that it's so far fetched. It might not happen, but its not so unlikely. India has a requirement for a carrier and the UK has defence budget problems largely caused by timing issues. Also It would be great to see the UK secure such an important ship for India over the Russians.
 

funtz

New Member
I agree with all you say, apart from that it's so far fetched. It might not happen, but its not so unlikely. India has a requirement for a carrier and the UK has defence budget problems largely caused by timing issues. Also It would be great to see the UK secure such an important ship for India over the Russians.
A carrier by itself is not a big advantage, it needs to be resupplied, it needs the planes, the pilots, the crews, and other war ships supporting it.

The Indian Navy has a certain plan for its carriers, three carriers, each fleet (the eastern fleet and the western fleet) getting a carrier battle group, now the Vikramadatya(ex-admiral Gorshkov) was to make sure that the carrier tradition did not go away for the 6-10 years it took to induct INS Vikrant (the indigenous aircraft carrier under construction with Cochin shipyard Limited) into service. That plan did not work and now the navy had to refurbish the old girl to keep her in service till the first carrier (from the Russian or the India shipyard) is commissioned into the navy.

The Russian carrier is going to be inducted into service around 2012-2015(hopefully), INS Vikrant(the first indigenous aircraft carrier) is going to be inducted into service around 2014-2017), and there is another aircraft carrier planned in the 2014-2022 time frame depending on when the first indigenous aircraft carrier is going to be commissioned into the Navy, now after that if all else is fine and the GoI gives the funding there is a hope (and a plan) to commission a third Indigenously built aircraft carrier into service, which i assume will replace the INS Vikramaditya and i hope take its name and place as the flagship, as the name sounds really good and intellectual for people who speak/understand Hindi.

These carriers will require planes, trained crew, the pilots, and other vessels to support them (which will require crews to man them), a whole support infrastructure.

Now all this has been planned and approved by the Government of India, which is careful with its money, the navy will not get anything outside this structure, so whenever there is a talk of a Kitty Halk, or a QE class vessel, people should remember the Indian Navy can not afford or accept (even for free) a aircraft carrier outside of this program.
 

1805

New Member
A carrier by itself is not a big advantage, it needs to be resupplied, it needs the planes, the pilots, the crews, and other war ships supporting it.

The Indian Navy has a certain plan for its carriers, three carriers, each fleet (the eastern fleet and the western fleet) getting a carrier battle group, now the Vikramadatya(ex-admiral Gorshkov) was to make sure that the carrier tradition did not go away for the 6-10 years it took to induct INS Vikrant (the indigenous aircraft carrier under construction with Cochin shipyard Limited) into service. That plan did not work and now the navy had to refurbish the old girl to keep her in service till the first carrier (from the Russian or the India shipyard) is commissioned into the navy.

The Russian carrier is going to be inducted into service around 2012-2015(hopefully), INS Vikrant(the first indigenous aircraft carrier) is going to be inducted into servicussu old Re around 2014-2017), and there is another aircraft carrier planned in the 2014-2022 time frame depending on when the first indigenous aircraft carrier is going to be commissioned into the Navy, now after that if all else is fine and the GoI gives the funding there is a hope (and a plan) to commission a third Indigenously built aircraft carrier into service, which i assume will replace the INS Vikramaditya and i hope take its name and place as the flagship, as the name sounds really good and intellectual for people who speak/understand Hindi.

These carriers will require planes, trained crew, the pilots, and other vessels to support them (which will require crews to man them), a whole support infrastructure.

Now all this has been planned and approved by the Government of India, which is careful with its money, the navy will not get anything outside this structure, so whenever there is a talk of a Kitty Halk, or a QE class vessel, people should remember the Indian Navy can not afford or accept (even for free) a aircraft carrier outside of this program.
Agreed, I was just saying it was not far fetched. It would certainly be better value than that the old Russian carrier, and probably cheaper, but then the money has been spent.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I agree with all you say, apart from that it's so far fetched. It might not happen, but its not so unlikely.
I was referring to the story that the carrier has already been offered to India. That isn't possible.

It is possible that enquiries have been made about how India might respond to an offer, & although it would be a stupid thing to do, it is possible that a British government might try to sell off one of the carriers after October 20th, but it is not possible for either BAe or the current government to have made an offer recently, as claimed.
 

1805

New Member
I was referring to the story that the carrier has already been offered to India. That isn't possible.

It is possible that enquiries have been made about how India might respond to an offer, & although it would be a stupid thing to do, it is possible that a British government might try to sell off one of the carriers after October 20th, but it is not possible for either BAe or the current government to have made an offer recently, as claimed.
I misunderstood you, yes unlikely an offer could have been made.
 

A.Mookerjee

Banned Member
The new ship, which is being built indigenously by India, is not going to be called the I N S Vikrant. That was the name of India's much loved first Aircraft Carrier, purchased from Great Britain.
I wonder what role the Indian Navy top brass has, for the Aircraft Carriers. I don't know, whether China has any Aircraft Carrier's, seriously. I saw the news about the new submarine class, of the Royal British Navy. Such a vessel, could make the Aircraft Carrier very vulnerable. In my opinion, perhaps the United States' nuclear powered carriers, have outlived their role. I can only see them as being operable in a war environment, heavily defended. This is because, normally, the aircraft on Aircraft Carriers, are not meant for anti submarine operations. The Aircraft Carrier will also have to be screened from missiles. A combined attack on Aircraft Carriers by submarines, and Cruise Missiles will make the Aircraft Carrier a goner. Also, how can the fighter aircraft of the U S Navy fight a dedicated Air Force far away from U S shores? An Aircraft Carrier can be used in a defensive role, against the enemy, as a means of secondary resort.
 

funtz

New Member
The new ship, which is being built indigenously by India, is not going to be called the I N S Vikrant. That was the name of India's much loved first Aircraft Carrier, purchased from Great Britain.

I wonder what role the Indian Navy top brass has, for the Aircraft Carriers. I don't know, whether China has any Aircraft Carrier's, seriously. I saw the news about the new submarine class, of the Royal British Navy. Such a vessel, could make the Aircraft Carrier very vulnerable.

In my opinion, perhaps the United States' nuclear powered carriers, have outlived their role. I can only see them as being operable in a war environment, heavily defended. This is because, normally, the aircraft on Aircraft Carriers, are not meant for anti submarine operations. The Aircraft Carrier will also have to be screened from missiles. A combined attack on Aircraft Carriers by submarines, and Cruise Missiles will make the Aircraft Carrier a goner.

Also, how can the fighter aircraft of the U S Navy fight a dedicated Air Force far away from U S shores? An Aircraft Carrier can be used in a defensive role, against the enemy, as a means of secondary resort.
Many news articles and analysts have started referring to the ship as the INS Vikrant.

PLAN is in the process of completing the construction on a abandoned Soviet aircraft carrier which was to be named Varyag.

Some thoughts about the aircraft carrier from an ex-top brass:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/2000s/Prakash.pdf

A vessel that makes an aircraft carrier vulnerable makes the entire surface naval vessels vulnerable.

I think the F-35 changes a lot of the vulnerabilities that their current 4th generation planes face in fighting a dedicated Air Force and air defence far away from the US shores, along with multiple weapon systems that have been developed to enter the war before an aircraft carrier.
 
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