NZDF General discussion thread

[RegR]

Nice idea but unfortunately all M113A1 have been cut up & turned into razor blades the only M113A1 left are being held by the National Army Museum in Waiouru only a limited stock of spares are left to keep the small fleet in Waiouru going. From what I remember the Bushmaster & NZLAV have the same powertrain so that could be a saving of some sorts IMO.

I would love to see bushmaster in kiwi green, would fill the niche between armoured pinzgauer and NZLAV and could possibly be more deployable as at the moment our armour is deemed either too overkill or underweight depending on threat level and terrain, although the small numbers currently deployed (3 LAV in Astan, 4 armoured pinz in Timor) is I suppose better than nothing.
Commonality in drivetrain and with the aussies is also an added bonus in terms of spares and cross training. Also not as imposeing as a 25mm armed LAV but more survivable then a pinny so maybe more options available + the added fact they can be utilised in other roles such as ambulance, mortars, ISTAR etc.
A purchase of a few of these could also help relations with the west islanders after our (governments) unwillingness to help out in the Afghan training role.
Dave, was just wondering what the small fleet of M113s in Waiouru is used for? Training, back up, nostalgia? Always thought keeping some of the legacy gear ie M113s, rovers, 1300s, SLRs etc for enemy force on the larger exs would add a little realism, as the old black beanie does'nt quite cut it when your using exactly the same equipment otherwise (i suppose the desert DPMs will help more now). could even make their own little squadron with the support of civis to act as locals depending on scenarios and rotate between 2/1 and 1st depending on who's running the ex. Just a thought but then again if they are parking up some of the current fleet to save money somehow I don't see them maintaining older equipment just for training.

 

[Cadredave]

I would love to see bushmaster in kiwi green, would fill the niche between armoured pinzgauer and NZLAV and could possibly be more deployable as at the moment our armour is deemed either too overkill or underweight depending on threat level and terrain, although the small numbers currently deployed (3 LAV in Astan, 4 armoured pinz in Timor) is I suppose better than nothing.
Commonality in drivetrain and with the aussies is also an added bonus in terms of spares and cross training. Also not as imposeing as a 25mm armed LAV but more survivable then a pinny so maybe more options available + the added fact they can be utilised in other roles such as ambulance, mortars, ISTAR etc.
A purchase of a few of these could also help relations with the west islanders after our (governments) unwillingness to help out in the Afghan training role.
Dave, was just wondering what the small fleet of M113s in Waiouru is used for? Training, back up, nostalgia? Always thought keeping some of the legacy gear ie M113s, rovers, 1300s, SLRs etc for enemy force on the larger exs would add a little realism, as the old black beanie does'nt quite cut it when your using exactly the same equipment otherwise (i suppose the desert DPMs will help more now). could even make their own little squadron with the support of civis to act as locals depending on scenarios and rotate between 2/1 and 1st depending on who's running the ex. Just a thought but then again if they are parking up some of the current fleet to save money somehow I don't see them maintaining older equipment just for training.

Hi Reg,
Like the ideas about the Bushmaster its combat proven & it will be a good vehicle to have in both Infantry Battalions, as for the M113 fleet in Waiouru there is only one model of each variant left & they are only for display at the museum unfortunatley we sold the M125A1 mortor carriers to the aussies there no way that we could afford to run them in todays climate it be a few years yet before the finacial handcuffs are removed by Govt. IMO this goverment is too stuck in the Vietnam pass to send a combat force down south to help our aussie brothers out wont look good for the election if soldiers started coming home in body bags frustrates the hell out of us, its like training a cop then not letting them go on the beat because its to dangeours.

 

[aussienscale]

Hi Reg,
Like the ideas about the Bushmaster its combat proven & it will be a good vehicle to have in both Infantry Battalions, as for the M113 fleet in Waiouru there is only one model of each variant left & they are only for display at the museum unfortunatley we sold the M125A1 mortor carriers to the aussies there no way that we could afford to run them in todays climate it be a few years yet before the finacial handcuffs are removed by Govt. IMO this goverment is too stuck in the Vietnam pass to send a combat force down south to help our aussie brothers out wont look good for the election if soldiers started coming home in body bags frustrates the hell out of us, its like training a cop then not letting them go on the beat because its to dangeours.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but do you think in the current situation the entire NZDF finds itself in, with the many frustrations and limitations that this is taking its effect on the pride and moral of the personnel ? It seems to the outsider (IE non Kiwi) that the government is loosing touch of the pride and reasons behind the ANZAC ledgend ? Like I said don't take it the wrong way but everyone seems to be very unhappy, with the NZDF lacking direction and purpose from the Government ? Being ex Navy myself I can feel the dispair and frustration, they must be loosing some good people over there

 

[Cadredave]

Please dont take this the wrong way, but do you think in the current situation the entire NZDF finds itself in, with the many frustrations and limitations that this is taking its effect on the pride and moral of the personnel ? It seems to the outsider (IE non Kiwi) that the government is loosing touch of the pride and reasons behind the ANZAC ledgend ? Like I said don't take it the wrong way but everyone seems to be very unhappy, with the NZDF lacking direction and purpose from the Government ? Being ex Navy myself I can feel the dispair and frustration, they must be loosing some good people over there

Gidday mate,
We are frustrated thats a fact but we are just to professional to let that impact on our moral we still have to concentrate on the tasks that we have in front of us like the PRT, Timor & Rata. Im Infantry i'll love to have a crack down south or in Kabul but until our political masters let us loose we have to make do with what we have. Our Govt uses Def & the ANZAC heritage when it wants to they always have & it wont change, until a major incident in Afgan or even back here occurs then only will the debate be brought to the front of every one attention until then we will always be the bridemaid these are my opinions only. the only positive at the moment with a recession is that our numbers have increased as people have come back knowing the security that a Def job has compared to civi street

 

[RegR]

Hi Reg,
Like the ideas about the Bushmaster its combat proven & it will be a good vehicle to have in both Infantry Battalions, as for the M113 fleet in Waiouru there is only one model of each variant left & they are only for display at the museum unfortunatley we sold the M125A1 mortor carriers to the aussies there no way that we could afford to run them in todays climate it be a few years yet before the finacial handcuffs are removed by Govt. IMO this goverment is too stuck in the Vietnam pass to send a combat force down south to help our aussie brothers out wont look good for the election if soldiers started coming home in body bags frustrates the hell out of us, its like training a cop then not letting them go on the beat because its to dangeours.

Cheers for the M113 info Dave, yep must be frustrating not being able to put all your practice into action, I can see a few pers being disillusioned with the governments current stance and thinking what am I doing all this training for if its never going to be fully utilised and combat tested. Seemed like a perfect oppourtunity with the Aussies to justify the LAV purchase, actually use them instead of run arounds for the Waiouru badlands, should have just put some chicken mesh on some buses and issue everyone a big stick to save on rounds, the worst your gonna get out there is a cold. Agreed about the government just looking out for their own interests ie impress when it suits not when it counts depending on how the polls are going.

 

[recce.k1]

The Foreign Minister today gives an indication that when the SAS deployment formally ends next year that the PM is .... "open to doing a little more there if we need to to back the gains that have been made but that would be something scaled down ...".

Question: If the main SAS group returns to NZ ealy next year (to recover/retrain/assist with CT - RWC taskings alongside their "Commando" (CTTAG) colleagues) .... could there be a place for some limited SAS trainers to stay in Kabul supplemented by a platoon or so of Regular Force types (and also backed up by LAV's/crews)? After all it's not like the RF will be needed for the main 2011 CT duties (RWC security etc) .... could this be their opportunity to work alongside Afghans and coalition forces at this interesting point in time where efforts in training and standing up local forces are taking a greater urgency?

I assume the Govt would prefer finite timeframe deployments (involving the sharper end of the Army) to ensure personnel are trained/deployed/recover sufficiently (and potential casualties minimised) .... and thus "avoid" further typically open ended deployments of the last 10 years that have seen the NZDF stretched etc?

 

[recce.k1]

No-one biting

Roll onto mid-2011... How about, the SAS have gained a valuable skill-set (training the Afghan CRU team); they're elite, time to step back in NZ for a re-group and probable busy next few months, then work up to a new deployment and gain a new skill-set with the Coalition forces next etc. Remain relevant etc (not meant as insult, meant as in remaining on the leading edge with the best in the world etc).

In the meantime a few SAS instructors remain in Kabul, and joined by a small but experienced group from the RNZIR etc (in which the Regular's comprising the current LAV crew rotations are experiencing etc ... lucky beggars eh) ...

The SAS are a known "risk" to the Govt and they cost less to deploy (and their deployments are usually finite etc). Compared to supporting a RF Coy deployment in which in the last 10 years a few have dragged out (with reprecussions for the entire NZDF etc).

So maybe the Regulars need to take a leaf and focus on some short, sharp and sustainable deployments, ideally working in with the Aussies, gaining further experience with the world's best, including training local forces, backed up with LAV (or this could justify a Bushmaster buy/lease etc). Makes for some experienced NCO's down the track for the future NZDF etc.

Might be more pallatable to those pollies, gives them foreign policy gains with reduced risk and costs (suits both Lab and Nat when either in power etc), ensures also the SAS don't possibly end up a bit overstretched themselves one day?

 

[RegR]

No-one biting

Roll onto mid-2011... How about, the SAS have gained a valuable skill-set (training the Afghan CRU team); they're elite, time to step back in NZ for a re-group and probable busy next few months, then work up to a new deployment and gain a new skill-set with the Coalition forces next etc. Remain relevant etc (not meant as insult, meant as in remaining on the leading edge with the best in the world etc).

In the meantime a few SAS instructors remain in Kabul, and joined by a small but experienced group from the RNZIR etc (in which the Regular's comprising the current LAV crew rotations are experiencing etc ... lucky beggars eh) ...

The SAS are a known "risk" to the Govt and they cost less to deploy (and their deployments are usually finite etc). Compared to supporting a RF Coy deployment in which in the last 10 years a few have dragged out (with reprecussions for the entire NZDF etc).

So maybe the Regulars need to take a leaf and focus on some short, sharp and sustainable deployments, ideally working in with the Aussies, gaining further experience with the world's best, including training local forces, backed up with LAV (or this could justify a Bushmaster buy/lease etc). Makes for some experienced NCO's down the track for the future NZDF etc.

Might be more pallatable to those pollies, gives them foreign policy gains with reduced risk and costs (suits both Lab and Nat when either in power etc), ensures also the SAS don't possibly end up a bit overstretched themselves one day?

Is'nt this what the aussies asked for in the first place? 50 pers to help out with training. if you take into account supporties and your classic officers who all of a sudden want to get out from behind their desk, then maybe half that number are actually trainers, and yet our government still does not want to commit them for safetys sake. Not to sure why the SAS deployment would be cheaper then the PRT deployment?

 

[Cadredave]

No-one biting

Roll onto mid-2011... How about, the SAS have gained a valuable skill-set (training the Afghan CRU team); they're elite, time to step back in NZ for a re-group and probable busy next few months, then work up to a new deployment and gain a new skill-set with the Coalition forces next etc. Remain relevant etc (not meant as insult, meant as in remaining on the leading edge with the best in the world etc).

In the meantime a few SAS instructors remain in Kabul, and joined by a small but experienced group from the RNZIR etc (in which the Regular's comprising the current LAV crew rotations are experiencing etc ... lucky beggars eh) ...

The SAS are a known "risk" to the Govt and they cost less to deploy (and their deployments are usually finite etc). Compared to supporting a RF Coy deployment in which in the last 10 years a few have dragged out (with reprecussions for the entire NZDF etc).

So maybe the Regulars need to take a leaf and focus on some short, sharp and sustainable deployments, ideally working in with the Aussies, gaining further experience with the world's best, including training local forces, backed up with LAV (or this could justify a Bushmaster buy/lease etc). Makes for some experienced NCO's down the track for the future NZDF etc.

Might be more pallatable to those pollies, gives them foreign policy gains with reduced risk and costs (suits both Lab and Nat when either in power etc), ensures also the SAS don't possibly end up a bit overstretched themselves one day?

recce
There is a reason why RNZIR can sustain long duration deployments, our skills are easily regenerated & they are the bass level entry skills of the SAS, we are already training the ANA & ANP our NCO are experienced & our contacts might not be as big or dynamic as the rest of the country but they are still contacts in which we can learn the lessons alot faster than the big boys can. I've had a long hard think about my previous opinions & i've come to the conclusion that the only reason we are in Bamiyan & not down south comes down to cost $ & not safety example,

Uruzgan Province deployment would require the following:
NZLAV x 16 for 1 x Coy RNZIR only,
2 x Engr NZLAV
MRAPS to replace all Pinz LOV,
UBRE or equivalent to refuel them x 2
Mk 19 & M2 weapons for all MRAPs turret mounts,
7.62 marksmen rifle per Inf sect,
IW Steyr upgrade to be brought forward,
new ACOG per IW Steyr,
1 x gun bty or 1 x mortar sect,
1 x Jav sections
1 x HMG sections,
plus all the CSS support to back this deployment up deployment numbers would reach close to 200 pers plus all of them soldiers would fall under combat & are then eligible for full war pesions benefits when they retire.

NZSAS in Kabul;
70 pers with all there SOE (Scale of equipment)
Specialist weapons & sigs equipment on the soldiers, &
3 x NZLAVs,
Deployment not classified as a combat deployment so soldiers are on a lower benefit when they retire.

These are from the top of my head only, all you have to see from the news is how the Govt wants to downsize everything its all got to do with money $. Sorry if I sound so negative just letting off steam.

 

[recce.k1]

Is'nt this what the aussies asked for in the first place?

I'm taking into account the timing - a deployment next year might be more favourable for various reasons rather than now-ish with the Aussies?

And perhaps a commitment to the Aussies in Uruzgan could be undesirable in that there is risk that NZ could be asked to extend or expand its presence (causing further issues for the NZDF nevermind the political nerves etc) ... versus the situation in Kabul where the situation is alot more "controllable" for the Govt?

I'm not defending the Govt, merely speculating on the reasons in the absence of any detailed explanation etc.

I did pick up the Listener today and read Paul Buchanan's article on NZ not deploying to Uruzgan (i.e. it expanded upon what he wrote here a couple of weeks ago and elsewhere). His reasons might be right except again we really don't know what the Govt briefing contained and can Paul Buchanan really be sure that the NZ Govt is wanting to cut and run? Time will tell over the next several months I suppose.

My take is things will be done differently, eg scale back the PRT deployment seeing the mission has largely been successful so that civilian agencies can take the lead, but keep a smaller NZDF presence tasked to provide security etc. Either withdraw or scale back severely the SAS, but that provides an opportunity for the Regulars to join into an existing NZ operation. I suppose the flaw here is that would it be approprite for the Regulars to train up an Afghan CT team? Probably not as it isn't the usual role of the Regulars (CT), so maybe that's not realistic then.

But what do we know? What we do know is what we're not supposed to know in that small groups of NZDF elements have joined up with Coalition forces undertaking some tasks such as (if I recall correctly) patrolling Coalition infrastructure around Kabul and now the explosive ordance disposal team revelation, so there are limited opportunities for the Regular's it seems.

Perhaps I'm not being clear but I certainly would support a Coy deployment with the Aussies or whomever, but I feel that won't happen until the PRT is scaled back to relieve pressure etc. According to recent news if 2014 is the timeline for the ANA to take control then I don't subscribe to the view that NZ will cut and run in 2011. Although to complicate matters NZ doesn't enjoy what the Australians have which is bi-partisan political consensus on Afghanistan. NZ Labour have done a classic 180 degree turn a la ANZUS (whereas Oz Labor pulled out of Iraq specifically to shore up Afghanistan). I agree it doesn't make NZ look as good as Australia does in the international community eyes ... but again unfortunately the reality of NZ politics frames the issue. So are we more likely see limited NZ elements deployed rather than further larger ones (in a NZ context)? For the Army's sake I hope the Govt get the balance right (and not be too timid).

Even still the Govt's response could easily include other options for 2011/12. Eg re-deploy the Frigates and re-deploy the Orions once they are ready post-upgrades? Purchase some UAV's that are inter-operable with Coalition systems and support any troops on the ground etc? Deploy the NH-90's to assist with Coalition or Aussie or NZ forces?

 

[recce.k1]

CD - I don't think you're sounding negative at all, just being a realist!

I agree that cost is a major consideration for the Govt (i.e. not doing as much as they could).

I'm curious that you suggest safety isn't also a Govt consideration (but I respect your real world experience over my armchair views), if so, then perhaps the Govt has more spine than we realise!

I like your Uruzgan Orbat, but I guess it's still a matter of timing, seeing NZ still needs to finish its investment in updating the Army (eg if we already had MRAP's ... if we already had the LAV CSS ... and the rifle upgrades etc ... sigh .... and do we need more recon and helo support etc)? I suppose whilst Labour funded the Army modernisation, looking back, they didn't fund the full range required ... now we have to wait till National re-assess the state of defence which means again a delay in completing the Army modernisation which means no doubt such a deployment on that scale probably won't happen 2010/11 (presumably when the Aussies wanted us etc).

I'd like to ask whether you are you able to speculate on other options but best to scrub that thought I think!

 

[RegR]

Cheers guys, understood the costs of a battle group vs SAS was referencing the current PRT vs SAS, a coy size group c/w LAVs, support and all the nescessary gucci kit to mitigate risks would obviously take a fair chunk of funding but I beleive the 50 trainers would not have needed that level of equipment or support as would most likely embed within the current Aussie programmes.
I suppose it is easier for the government to put it down to safety rather then our current financial state to save face.
Yes sorry was'nt trying to sound negative about the deployment of the trainers and understand how the RWC will be priority security wise around that timeframe just seems to me that commandos along with SAS(+maybe 1-2 regular companies max) alongside police, AOS,STG should have it covered then the trainers could come from within the remaining battalion(s).
I have stated before that the new deployment would require downsizing in another area to compensate and the PRT seems the best bet as Bamiyan is deemed to be a success area and therefore should be a prime candidate for a layered handover to civi/local forces(got to start handover trials sometime/somewhere). On that note if the trainer deployment was to ever eventuate and then after RWC was to expand into the coy deployment then maybe a deal could be struck with the aussies for a early NZ withdrawl from Timor and Solomans(as we have both drawn down forces anyway) so the beefed up company could be NZDFs sole major deploymant focus and thus personnell, equipment and finacially viable.
The time between now and RWC end would be a good time to equip appropriately (bushies, wpn systems, CSS etc) and become intimate with and perfect spec training as Oruzgen would be a step up intensity wise from Bamiyan. With a 2014 deadline(ish aye) could just stipulate 1 tour for each company from both Bns, support trades may be alittle pressed but Im sure some soldiers (as now) would not mind a second tour despite the increased threat level as this is why you join(+ the added financial incentives)
Also maybe our frigates could releive a coallition ship off the coast of somallia etc protecting shipping as it would be more suited to our under equipped ANZACs and directly support our trade routes. The surveillance orions would probably also shine in this area and with all these surely would be seen internationally as doing our bit.

 

[recce.k1]

With the Regular's previously honing skills learned in Germany (Cooperative Spirit 2008):
NZ Army - Train to Win - Co-operative Spirit 2008
NZ Army - Cooperative Spirit 2008 - The Final Test

And current activities eg such as the 16 Field Regiment regenerating their artillery/mortar skills and the recent fast-air exercises looks as though your "beefed up" Company scenario (with the Aussies) sounds like it could be a plan ...

With the lessons learnt so far (working with international and coalitions efforts in various spots since Bosnia especially to the present day) no doubt and drawing upon the experiences closer to home (eg Timor & Solomons etc) .... what the Govt will "deliver" for the Army/NZDF as a result of the Defence Review in Sept will confirm how serious they will support NZDF's continuous self-improvement/upskilling, to support Govt policy in being a "good international citizen" and the proposed ANZAC joint cooperation efforts etc.

EG as you say "now and RWC end would be a good time to equip appropriately (bushies, wpn systems, CSS etc)". Add in Macchis

So this would be a good test of Govt commitment and will, and future intent .... perhaps?

 

[RegR]

Agreed recce at least we have not lost the capabilities completely and are still gathering lessons learnt from our allies who have first hand experience. Yes there is a few things that could go on the shopping list that would make NZDF an effective and well equipped force, suppose the reveiw will give a clear sign on the governments stance and the direction (and therefore locations) our forces will be going in, will be interesting to see the outcome. Hopefully we don't go the way of our air force not saying its not A class with what it has, just lacks some teeth for what it could be doing.

 

[steve33]

recce
There is a reason why RNZIR can sustain long duration deployments, our skills are easily regenerated & they are the bass level entry skills of the SAS, we are already training the ANA & ANP our NCO are experienced & our contacts might not be as big or dynamic as the rest of the country but they are still contacts in which we can learn the lessons alot faster than the big boys can. I've had a long hard think about my previous opinions & i've come to the conclusion that the only reason we are in Bamiyan & not down south comes down to cost $ & not safety example,

Uruzgan Province deployment would require the following:
NZLAV x 16 for 1 x Coy RNZIR only,
2 x Engr NZLAV
MRAPS to replace all Pinz LOV,
UBRE or equivalent to refuel them x 2
Mk 19 & M2 weapons for all MRAPs turret mounts,
7.62 marksmen rifle per Inf sect,
IW Steyr upgrade to be brought forward,
new ACOG per IW Steyr,
1 x gun bty or 1 x mortar sect,
1 x Jav sections
1 x HMG sections,
plus all the CSS support to back this deployment up deployment numbers would reach close to 200 pers plus all of them soldiers would fall under combat & are then eligible for full war pesions benefits when they retire.

NZSAS in Kabul;
70 pers with all there SOE (Scale of equipment)
Specialist weapons & sigs equipment on the soldiers, &
3 x NZLAVs,
Deployment not classified as a combat deployment so soldiers are on a lower benefit when they retire.

These are from the top of my head only, all you have to see from the news is how the Govt wants to downsize everything its all got to do with money $. Sorry if I sound so negative just letting off steam.

I have to be honest cadre i think the casulties do come into it John Key is flying high in the polls and he doesn,t want anything to spoil that and also want to be liked by everyone.

I have waited for our infantry to be deployed there since 2001 and the government has always had some reason why they can,t i personally think they just don,t want to they don,t want the headache of having to deal with coffins coming home and what it will do to there poll numbers.

 

[stryker NZ]

NZ soldier killed in Afghanistan

this just came out this morning

NZ soldier killed in Afghanistan - Yahoo!Xtra News

rest in peace and our thoughts are with the family of the lost and those who were injured

 

[steve33]

RIP.

We have gone so long without anyone being killed there i started to think hell we might get through without losing anyone.

It said they were in three vehicles i wonder if they were Hilux utes,may be time to move some LAV 111 there.

 

[steve33]

Thinking back there have been a couple of bombings against our people that weren,t that effective no doubt they were just test runs it sure sucks but it certainly rams home the reality of the situation.

 

[Cadredave]

RIP.

We have gone so long without anyone being killed there i started to think hell we might get through without losing anyone.

It said they were in three vehicles i wonder if they were Hilux utes,may be time to move some LAV 111 there.

Last night contact the patrol were in uparmoured humvees, this part of the province all our patrols have been hit usally during the handover period from one rotation to the next, the difference this time is the insurgents have learnt from there past mistakes. First off you must all understand that our ROE forbid us from pursuing the insurgents across the province border where the insugents fire & operate from my point of view this was a long time coming. The comments from the Civilian SNO on One Network news have come back & bit him on the arse no part of Bamiyan province is safe period. LAV 3 cant operate in this part of Bamiyan its has a single dirt track thats surrounded by high mountain ridges, this country belongs to Dismounted Infantry.

 

[steve33]

Last night contact the patrol were in uparmoured humvees, this part of the province all our patrols have been hit usally during the handover period from one rotation to the next, the difference this time is the insurgents have learnt from there past mistakes. First off you must all understand that our ROE forbid us from pursuing the insurgents across the province border where the insugents fire & operate from my point of view this was a long time coming. The comments from the Civilian SNO on One Network news have come back & bit him on the arse no part of Bamiyan province is safe period. LAV 3 cant operate in this part of Bamiyan its has a single dirt track thats surrounded by high mountain ridges, this country belongs to Dismounted Infantry.

I know what you mean cadre all those bombings in the past testing the water against us i am suprised we have got this far before it happened.

Shame we can,t get the LAV up there but the hard reality is this is war and this is what happens.

I hope the ROE is changed so our people can cross the border and pursue they are giving the insurgents safe haven with the ROE.