T-72: Still Useful or Not?

[IronsightSniper]

You never mentioned the chassis >.>


But yeah, the Russians are adapting to Urban Warfare faster than we Americans are. An armored vehicle capable of sustaining hits from AT weaponary, defeat the carrier such AT weaponary, and at the same time, be AT itself. The BMPT and that Israeli one are probably the next step in the history books of armor warfare.

 

[Feanor]

You never mentioned the chassis >.>


But yeah, the Russians are adapting to Urban Warfare faster than we Americans are. An armored vehicle capable of sustaining hits from AT weaponary, defeat the carrier such AT weaponary, and at the same time, be AT itself. The BMPT and that Israeli one are probably the next step in the history books of armor warfare.

You do realize that the acronym BTR-T refers MAINLY to the chassis, right? Any combat module can be installed. BMPT refers to a unique combination of combat module and chassis. Both of your examples are not combat modules, they're entire vehicles, with a chassis, and a combat module.

 

[Feanor]

Some interesting news coming out of the "Technology and Machinebuilding 2010" expo in Moscow. The new T-90A variant being displayed includes Relikt armor, and Catherine thermals. Along with it will be displayed Object 188M, a deep reworking of the T-90, with a new turret, incorporating elements of the BMPT and Rogatka designs. Significant changes include strengthened top and rear armor
(claimed to be equally protected from all directions of fire), new FCS, new gun (two are cited, the 2A82, and the 2A46M-5), and smaller sized optics, with protection from small-caliber fire.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Òàíöû ñ ïóøêàìè

Also a new competitor to the Italian Iveco armored cars is being displayed for the first time, the Wolf armored car by OAO GAZ, which is being presented as a MRAP. It will be a very signaling decisionn to see whether a domestic vehicle or the Iveco car wins the contract.

 

[eckherl]

I've discovered the 57mm firing complex you were talking about earlier.

ru_armor: Ðовое боевое отделений от СММ - конкурент «Бахчи»

It seems it's a combat module with a 57mm gun, 30mm automatic grenade launcher, 4 ATGMs, and a 12.7mm machinegun. What I'm wondering about is the 92 rounds for the 57mm. This would mean that it's not a replacement for the 30mm gun on the Bakcha-U, because it simply doesn't have enough rounds to provide the rapid-fire support that the 30mm offers, with it's 500 rounds. (and 34 for the 100mm). It does have a better ATGM (the Kornet) but it's not barrel fired, making it more complex, and more exposed imo.

Anyways the complex is currently a proposed upgrade for the PT-76 amphibious light tank. I doubt SMM has the influence to beat KurganMash for the BMP-3M and BMD-4M contracts, which is where the real money for these combat modules is.

I'd want to see it with higher RoF, and something to the tune of 300-500 rounds. The FCS sounds impressive, but the overall concept seems lacking. It doesn't even look like a competitor for the Bakcha-U, instead it looks like a different class of weapon systems.

The Russians seem to be still tinkering around with it, we will just have to see what they decide to come out with, I would limit the 30 mm auto cannon all together and dig into the old bag of tricks in regards to projectile technology.

 

[eckherl]

Some interesting news coming out of the "Technology and Machinebuilding 2010" expo in Moscow. The new T-90A variant being displayed includes Relikt armor, and Catherine thermals. Along with it will be displayed Object 188M, a deep reworking of the T-90, with a new turret, incorporating elements of the BMPT and Rogatka designs. Significant changes include strengthened top and rear armor
(claimed to be equally protected from all directions of fire), new FCS, new gun (two are cited, the 2A82, and the 2A46M-5), and smaller sized optics, with protection from small-caliber fire.

*ÂÇÃËßÄ / Òàíöû ñ ïóøêàìè

Also a new competitor to the Italian Iveco armored cars is being displayed for the first time, the Wolf armored car by OAO GAZ, which is being presented as a MRAP. It will be a very signaling decisionn to see whether a domestic vehicle or the Iveco car wins the contract.

I thought they decided to go with the Italian design.

 

[Feanor]

Well they did. At least they said they did. But these decisions can change, and there is a lot of political pressure against that decision. It's less discussed then the Mistral purchase, but from the looks of it far more contested in terms of internal politics. For one it would push OAO GAZ and AMZ out of the light recon/patrol vehicles niche, and hand it over to Kamaz. For AMZ the loss wouldn't be all too major, but for GAZ it would be another nail in the coffin. That alone might serve the role of giving their new Wolf a chance at least at State Trials. The other issue of course is that this would destroy the export potential of the SPM-1 (Tigr), SPM-3 (Medved) and of GAZ's new Wolf.

I'm also wondering how good Iveco's LMVs are in comparison to other vehicles of a similar class. If it really does offer a radical advantage over domestic variants, then that could put an end to the infighting. But if it's not that much better (or not better at all), then the politics may well outweigh the military-technical considerations. Granted no matter what the outcome, the official rhetoric will be veiled in military-technical terms. Which means we may not really know why the decision was made one way or the other. And Kamaz does have a lot of weight, granted how the decision to buy imported equipment in principle has been made and money will reportedly be set aside, it may become that it's an issue of finding things to spend the money on (osvoit as the Russian bureaucrats say).

 

[Feanor]

The Russians seem to be still tinkering around with it, we will just have to see what they decide to come out with, I would limit the 30 mm auto cannon all together and dig into the old bag of tricks in regards to projectile technology.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're referencing in terms of the old bag of tricks.

The way I see it, the IFV needs some sort of area suppression weapon of a caliber greater then 12.7mm. This weapon needs a high RoF and a decent supply of ammo. It can be 57mm, if like you say technology improves. But then it would need a supply of 300-500 rounds, and a cyclic rate of over 200 rounds per minute.

If anything, with improvements in projectile technology, 23mm could be the new 30mm, with increased penetration potential.

 

[IronsightSniper]

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're referencing in terms of the old bag of tricks.

The way I see it, the IFV needs some sort of area suppression weapon of a caliber greater then 12.7mm. This weapon needs a high RoF and a decent supply of ammo. It can be 57mm, if like you say technology improves. But then it would need a supply of 300-500 rounds, and a cyclic rate of over 200 rounds per minute.

If anything, with improvements in projectile technology, 23mm could be the new 30mm, with increased penetration potential.

heh, this might seem as a novel idea, but how about at T-72 chassis without a turret, spam Kontakt-5 throughout the chassis of the vehicle, and mount remote-controlled M2(or the like) HMGs where the turret should be? I'm not sure of the numbers as to how much ammunition per gun could be stored in such a place, but I'm imagining a T-72 with 6 remotely operated M2 hmg's, with 3 on each side of the turret to suppress the enemy. They would be operated by the infantry carried within.

What would you think?

 

[Alo Durry]

Well, as far as Russian requirements go, certainly not, for now. Ever since the development of objekt 195 (T-95), the Russians have said they are replacing the aging gas guzzling T80 and legendary T72 with the T90 as backbone, and the T95 as a front liner. Eversince the cancellation of the T95, it might still be a useful tank to the Russians. It'll be a miracle if the Russians can actually make a new tank (the T90 is not new, it's a highly upgraded T72) in their desperate economic state. The manufacturer ofthe T80, Omsk Transmash, who designed the Black eagle export tank, is now going bankrupt, while Uralvagonzavod can barely operate without state permits (gosh dang communism), so it's likely we'll see Uralvagonzavod going under too.

So I see a bright future for the Russian T72, until we all run out of oil.

Alo

 

[Feanor]

heh, this might seem as a novel idea, but how about at T-72 chassis without a turret, spam Kontakt-5 throughout the chassis of the vehicle, and mount remote-controlled M2(or the like) HMGs where the turret should be? I'm not sure of the numbers as to how much ammunition per gun could be stored in such a place, but I'm imagining a T-72 with 6 remotely operated M2 hmg's, with 3 on each side of the turret to suppress the enemy. They would be operated by the infantry carried within.

What would you think?

I know this comes a long time later, but what you're thinking of is called the BMO-T, and is in service with Russian RKhBZ units, as a heavy APC for flame-thrower platoons.