Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Present planning will result in almost zero close air support being flown from these ships.As reported in the latest edition of "THe NAVY' It seems that the army's Tiger ARH's are considered to be unsuitable for shipboard operations so even rotary winged close air support will be unavailable unless modifications can be made to enable them to deploy from the LHDs.

It seems unbelievable to me that the need for these helos to be capable of shipboard operations was not considered important at the time of their procurement - yet another incompetent blunder by our defence bureaucrats IMO.

Tas
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
RAN 100th

Received this email reply this morning re the RAN's 100th, will let you know when web page is up and running
UNCLASSIFIED

Dear Mr Thompson,

The Project Director of the RAN 100th anniversary celebrations has replied to my inquiries and has informed me that his department are currently setting up a website for Project 100. If you have any initial inquiries, he is happy to receive your call on the phone numbers below. The Project Director is Commander Ted Breukel and his contact details are as follows:

Ted Breukel
Commander RANR
Project Director
Project 100

02. 9359 4470
0429 127 099

I hope you find this information useful.

Regards

MAREE WHITTAKER-JONES

Dept. of Defence

PO Box 7942

Canberra BC, ACT, 2610
 

RAAF-35

New Member
It seems strange to me that the government would buy two of these ships, both with ski jumps if they never intended on using them. And the fact that it has amphibious assult capabilities would be another reason for having F-35s. Whats the point of landing onto someone elses country (either invading or disaster relief) without any proper close air support? Seems strange.
 

PeterM

Active Member
It seems strange to me that the government would buy two of these ships, both with ski jumps if they never intended on using them. And the fact that it has amphibious assult capabilities would be another reason for having F-35s. Whats the point of landing onto someone elses country (either invading or disaster relief) without any proper close air support? Seems strange.
not when you consider that they are using an existing design and would have cost more to structurally redesign the ship without ski jumps.

The Canberras are amphib platforms with helicopter support.

The close support role (if required) could be filled by Tiger ARHs.

It is unlikely the ADF would undertake anything more substantial by itself, it would more likely be in some kind of coalition.

There is also the Super Hornets (and eventually F-35s) with inflight refuelling for any strike needs within our immediate region.

You also have to factor in that the F-35B is substantially more expensice than the F-35As the RAAF is getting (enough that there is speculation from certain areas the RN could opt for conventional F-35Cs instead of F-35Bs for the two Queen Elizabeth class carriers to save about $25m per aircraft (and the F-35C is more expensive than the F-35A))
 

Trackmaster

Member
A suggestion.
Go back through this thread and you'll find very good reasons why the naval version of the F-35 will not fly with a kangaroo on it.
It is not worth re-hashing the arguments.
Spend the time and read the thread.
 

RAAF-35

New Member
A suggestion.
Go back through this thread and you'll find very good reasons why the naval version of the F-35 will not fly with a kangaroo on it.
It is not worth re-hashing the arguments.
Spend the time and read the thread.
Im terribly sorry Trackmaster. I'll go through all 250 pages looking for a specific question that might not be there. Thankyou for you valuable input.
 

RAAF-35

New Member
not when you consider that they are using an existing design and would have cost more to structurally redesign the ship without ski jumps.

The Canberras are amphib platforms with helicopter support.

The close support role (if required) could be filled by Tiger ARHs.

It is unlikely the ADF would undertake anything more substantial by itself, it would more likely be in some kind of coalition.

There is also the Super Hornets (and eventually F-35s) with inflight refuelling for any strike needs within our immediate region.

You also have to factor in that the F-35B is substantially more expensice than the F-35As the RAAF is getting (enough that there is speculation from certain areas the RN could opt for conventional F-35Cs instead of F-35Bs for the two Queen Elizabeth class carriers to save about $25m per aircraft (and the F-35C is more expensive than the F-35A))
The tigers are not suited for the marine environment, and the army has clearly stated this. So using them to fill a close air support role would not be a good idea.
 

Trackmaster

Member
Im terribly sorry Trackmaster. I'll go through all 250 pages looking for a specific question that might not be there. Thankyou for you valuable input.
Please don't get snippy.
This question has been done and re-done on countless occasions. The thread was closed at one stage because of the re-hashiing of the issue.
On reviewing my post, perhaps it was a little pointed.
All I am saying is...no plans for naval F-35's. Our big ships won't be built to operate them, apart from the occasional cross-decking.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
...
The close support role (if required) could be filled by Tiger ARHs.

...
I agree with much of what you have said but I refer back to my previous comment that close air support will NOT be available from Tiger ARHs without considerable marinisation. As it is the Tiger is not marinised, particularly against the effects of salt spray, its undercarriage and tie down points are unsuitable for deck operaration and its rotor blades do not fold. Nor has it been tested at sea onboard existing assets such as Kanimbla or Manoora.
The Navy, Apr - June 2010

Tas
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Present planning will result in almost zero close air support being flown from these ships.As reported in the latest edition of "THe NAVY' It seems that the army's Tiger ARH's are considered to be unsuitable for shipboard operations so even rotary winged close air support will be unavailable unless modifications can be made to enable them to deploy from the LHDs.

It seems unbelievable to me that the need for these helos to be capable of shipboard operations was not considered important at the time of their procurement - yet another incompetent blunder by our defence bureaucrats IMO.

Tas

Whilst "The Navy" is a fine magazine which I enjoy reading, I would take their claims that the Tigers are unsuitable to operate off the LHD's with a grain of salt. “The Navy” is not an independent commercial publication but the official magazine of the Navy League of Australia. (basically a bunch of ex-admirals who can't let go :)

Have a look at the back page where they state their maritime goals for Australia, I don't have an issue on me but from memory one of their highest priority is to acquire F-35B’s to operate of the LHD's. Also in nearly every issue there is an editorial on how we are crazy not to get them. So by rubbishing the tigers ability to operate off the LHD's they get to promote the supposed need for the F-35B.

Yes the ARH Tiger is not a maritime helicopter but this does not mean it cannot operate from sea. It's body material (composite plastic) and engines are the same as the MRH-90's and they are obviously not going to rust away within a second of seeing the ocean spray. Proper aircraft husbandry keeps corrosion at bay i.e. if an aircraft has salt on it.......you wash is down!. The army's main helicopter base (RAAF Townsville) is in close very proximity to the sea so they have a long history of managing corrosion issues.

The lack of folding rotors is an issue but not an insurmountable one. They fit on the lifts so they can get down to the hanger even if moving them around there will be a pain in the arse. Also within a couple of days of commencement of an operation the Tigers would likely move ashore anyway to allow the LHD's to be retasked.

If the Brits can operate Apaches (with similar issues than that our Tigers) off their smaller flat top's I see no reason why we can’t/wont (I find it hard to believe the army is not interested in this capability) off ours.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Tiger can be hangered without folding its rotors. Landing on a 30,000t flat top amphib is a bit different than landing on the Frankenstein monsters of the Kanimblas. There would be what, 10- 15 metres of height above sealevel on a massive stable platform.

I don't see even the Tigers being regularly attached to the amphibs. But they could operate off it if it was operationally required. I don't think it would be good for the Tigers but it could be done. I think it would be worthwhile for the ADF to partically navalise them now (in partnership with France). Have all of them been delivered yet?

But does highlight the fact really we don't have much to deploy off the LHD (in terms of aircraft). Where are the naval helos? Where is our amphib CAS asset to deploy from them? We don't even have enough chooks to really operate off them either.

We don't have to worry about F-35's. We need to worry about Helicopters!
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Whilst "The Navy" is a fine magazine which I enjoy reading, I would take their claims that the Tigers are unsuitable to operate off the LHD's with a grain of salt. “The Navy” is not an independent commercial publication but the official magazine of the Navy League of Australia. (basically a bunch of ex-admirals who can't let go :)

Have a look at the back page where they state their maritime goals for Australia, I don't have an issue on me but from memory one of their highest priority is to acquire F-35B’s to operate of the LHD's. Also in nearly every issue there is an editorial on how we are crazy not to get them. So by rubbishing the tigers ability to operate off the LHD's they get to promote the supposed need for the F-35B.

Yes the ARH Tiger is not a maritime helicopter but this does not mean it cannot operate from sea. It's body material (composite plastic) and engines are the same as the MRH-90's and they are obviously not going to rust away with a second of seeing the ocean spray. Proper aircraft husbandry keeps corrosion at bay i.e. if an aircraft has salt on it.......you wash is down!. The army's main helicopter base (Townsville) is in close very proximity to the sea they have a long history of managing corrosion issues.

The lack of folding rotors is an issue but not an insurmountable one. They fit on the lifts so they can get down to the hanger even if moving them around there will be a pain in the arse. Also within a couple of days of commencement of an operation the Tigers would likely move ashore anyway to allow the LHD's to be retasked.

If the Brits can operate Apaches (with similar issues than that our Tigers) off their smaller flat top's I see no reason why we can’t/wont (I find it hard to believe the army is not interested in this capability) off ours.
I hope you are right... :)

However, the comments concerning the Tiger ARH and reported in The Navy came from Army Aviation...

I agree that in an emergency it should be possible to deploy a limited number of Tigers and move them ashore as soon as possible but surely a dedicated fully marinised close aupport asset would be a more sensible solution... BTW, I am not suggesting F-35s, much as the idea appeals to me. Marinising the Tigers or ensuring that any follow on order is marinised would be one possibilty. However, given the budget problems likely to confront the ADF over the next few years I won't be holding my breath.

Tas
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I hope you are right... :)

However, the comments concerning the Tiger ARH and reported in The Navy came from Army Aviation...

I agree that in an emergency it should be possible to deploy a limited number of Tigers and move them ashore as soon as possible but surely a dedicated fully marinised close aupport asset would be a more sensible solution... BTW, I am not suggesting F-35s, much as the idea appeals to me. Marinising the Tigers or ensuring that any follow on order is marinised would be one possibilty. However, given the budget problems likely to confront the ADF over the next few years I won't be holding my breath.

Tas
welcome back :) long time no see,

you're right on a number of fronts.

The Tigers have enough problems to deal with let alone worrying and wondering whether they will be part of an expeditionary complement. fixing them is a priority before anyone considers them useful for slotting onto the fatships

we've already had the $20bn pulled which means that we are in cost daving mode. marinised Tigers are just not a priority by any means.

in an emergency yes, but even then they have some major issues to resolve before they can deploy off command assets.

for others, it is worth reading the history of this thread or at least search for key words. Again, there is no consideration for the fatships to deploy JSF - and the force modelling has been done out to 2030.

they're not carriers or defacto fixed wing carriers, they aren't fitted out for the job for it. they are C3 command assets and are intended to be deployed theatre command assets - thats what their entire fitout is for.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
It seems strange to me that the government would buy two of these ships, both with ski jumps if they never intended on using them. And the fact that it has amphibious assult capabilities would be another reason for having F-35s. Whats the point of landing onto someone elses country (either invading or disaster relief) without any proper close air support? Seems strange.
1. Australia is not attempting to create a US Marine Corps styled amphibious warfare capability. We are seeking to enhance the amphibious warfare capability that we already have represented by HMAS Kanimbla, Manoora and Tobruk.

I'm sure you will agree that our current force does not afford us any "on-board" close air support capability? Why therefore would we automatically be seeking to make the enormous jump between our present capability and a capability similar to the USMC? The difference is literally (or should that be littorally?) enormous.

2. These ships are designed to support helicopter operations, NOT fixed wing operations. The Spanish intend to use them as a training platform only, to keep their pilots current, when their real carrier is undergoing maintenance. It is not designed for use as an operational carrier.

3. There are other ways of providing air support and long ranged precision fires, than taking aircraft on ships. We have allies, who maintain air bases for instance. We are buying air refuelling capabilities and we will be providing our Navy with long range surface to air and surface to surface weapon systems and RAAF with long ranged air to surface weapons.

4. Where exactly do you imagine that Australia would NEED fighters on ships to help fight our way into a Country and yet the 6-8 F-35B's they could actually support at best, (even then at a significant detriment to the amphibious capability of these ships) would actually be sufficient to provide this close air support and not themselves a liability?
 

RAAF-35

New Member
1. Australia is not attempting to create a US Marine Corps styled amphibious warfare capability. We are seeking to enhance the amphibious warfare capability that we already have represented by HMAS Kanimbla, Manoora and Tobruk.

I'm sure you will agree that our current force does not afford us any "on-board" close air support capability? Why therefore would we automatically be seeking to make the enormous jump between our present capability and a capability similar to the USMC? The difference is literally (or should that be littorally?) enormous.

2. These ships are designed to support helicopter operations, NOT fixed wing operations. The Spanish intend to use them as a training platform only, to keep their pilots current, when their real carrier is undergoing maintenance. It is not designed for use as an operational carrier.

3. There are other ways of providing air support and long ranged precision fires, than taking aircraft on ships. We have allies, who maintain air bases for instance. We are buying air refuelling capabilities and we will be providing our Navy with long range surface to air and surface to surface weapon systems and RAAF with long ranged air to surface weapons.

4. Where exactly do you imagine that Australia would NEED fighters on ships to help fight our way into a Country and yet the 6-8 F-35B's they could actually support at best, (even then at a significant detriment to the amphibious capability of these ships) would actually be sufficient to provide this close air support and not themselves a liability?
Having a mobile airforce is better then one that is not mobile. What is the point of having Australia's largest airbase at Williamtown? Who is going to attack Australia from pacific? As far is Im concerned, Amberley is as far south as an airbase, espcially one with fighters should be. Whats the use of having 2 squadrons of hornets (F-35 in the future) at Williamtown when the most likely place of attack is from the north, north western coast of Australia? And dont go on about "who would attack Australia", because that is the sort of ignorance that countries went by in WWII and look what happened. Having a mobile force of fighters that have the capability to deploy to any part of Australia is a good thing, and if anyone thinks otherwise, your dreaming.

"We have allies, who maintain air bases for instance." Yer, so? What happens if that base gets bombed out? Air refuelling capabilities? Yer, because the 5 hour transit flight over Australia to where the action is actually taking place will require this obviously. What good is a cruise missile going to be in a close air support role? And believe me, I think its great we are getting the Tomahawk, but in the role you suggested it in it just would not work. Nor would helicopters. You cannot replace fixed wing carrier ops with helicopters, which is what has happened.

And once more the "allies" comes out. When is Australia going to stand on its own two feet and take control of our own defence. We cant keep relying on our allies to always be there to clean the mess up and take control like the Americans would. At the end of the day there is no way that you can think that if an attack was to occur, we would be ready. Having fighter squadrons on the east coast of Australia is stupid, so is basing a maritime and anti-submarine aircraft in SA. If we want to be prepared for what the future may hold, there has to be some serious changes in the way the Government handles defence.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Having a mobile airforce is better then one that is not mobile. What is the point of having Australia's largest airbase at Williamtown? Who is going to attack Australia from pacific? As far is Im concerned, Amberley is as far south as an airbase, espcially one with fighters should be. Whats the use of having 2 squadrons of hornets (F-35 in the future) at Williamtown when the most likely place of attack is from the north, north western coast of Australia? And dont go on about "who would attack Australia", because that is the sort of ignorance that countries went by in WWII and look what happened. Having a mobile force of fighters that have the capability to deploy to any part of Australia is a good thing, and if anyone thinks otherwise, your dreaming.

"We have allies, who maintain air bases for instance." Yer, so? What happens if that base gets bombed out? Air refuelling capabilities? Yer, because the 5 hour transit flight over Australia to where the action is actually taking place will require this obviously. What good is a cruise missile going to be in a close air support role? And believe me, I think its great we are getting the Tomahawk, but in the role you suggested it in it just would not work. Nor would helicopters. You cannot replace fixed wing carrier ops with helicopters, which is what has happened.

And once more the "allies" comes out. When is Australia going to stand on its own two feet and take control of our own defence. We cant keep relying on our allies to always be there to clean the mess up and take control like the Americans would. At the end of the day there is no way that you can think that if an attack was to occur, we would be ready. Having fighter squadrons on the east coast of Australia is stupid, so is basing a maritime and anti-submarine aircraft in SA. If we want to be prepared for what the future may hold, there has to be some serious changes in the way the Government handles defence.
I would strongly suggest sitting down and reviewing Australia's economic and population bases, the population and industrial dispersion, the total forces available within the ADF, and the locations of all active and 'bare bones' bases available. Additionally, consideration must be given road, rail and sealines of communication. At present, the POV you seem to currently have ignores a number of realities as well as potential contigencies needed.

For example, you would seem to be advocating that an RAAF force be actively deployed from Broome and/or the surrounding area. IIRC there is an available RAAF 'bare bones' base nearby whose name currently escapes me While such a deployment could of course be conducted and maintained, there would be a number of impacts felt across the Australian defence posture. For one thing, a fighter squadron maintained there would require that a squadron currently deployed elsewhere be moved. In the case of relocating F/A-18 Hug Bugs from the area around Canberra, Sydney or Melbourne, which really makes more sense in terms of providing security... Having a fighter squadron stationed within an area of significant population density near a major population centre, able to rapidly deploy to threats against the population centre or occurring within the area? Or is it more sensible to have the fighters stations on the other side of the GAFA, far enough away that the fighter would likely need AAR in order to rapidly respond to a threat neary the population centre? As an added factor, if a unit is stationed far from major population centres, it would likely cause the station/post/base to be considered a 'hardship' post due to the limited opportunities available to personnel and their dependents when at the base.

Additionally as I mentioned, the ADF has several prepared 'bare bones' air bases/fields established in parts of northern WA and NT, so that in the event of war or attacks from Australia's northern neighbours, aircraft can be rapidly relocated cover the northern approaches if needed. Not to mention the amount of money, effort and research Australia has expended on improving EW assets to detect potential approaching threats, allowing Australia to respond at a time and with a method of its choosing.

-Cheers
 

OpinionNoted

Banned Member
RAAF-35 said:
When is Australia going to stand on its own two feet and take control of our own defence. We cant keep relying on our allies to always be there to clean the mess up and take control like the Americans would. At the end of the day there is no way that you can think that if an attack was to occur, we would be ready. Having fighter squadrons on the east coast of Australia is stupid, so is basing a maritime and anti-submarine aircraft in SA. If we want to be prepared for what the future may hold, there has to be some serious changes in the way the Government handles defence.
Dont know what its gonna take for aus to stand on her own two feet.
We hid behind the brits from settlement till the fall of singapore.
We then hid behind the US and still continue to do so.
We have the head in the sand opinionists with a threat takes time to materialze or big and powerfull friends will come to our aid.
We have an ascendant china and india,both with over 1000 million people.
We have 7.6 million square kilometres of land,similiar in size to china,more than twice the size of india.
We have just 22 million people.
We have large resources.
China and India are fueling ever increasing competition for resources.
We may have a much humbled US military capability in concert with a much prouder Chinese and Indian military capability.

So we either can learn Chinese or Indian and become subseviant to 1 and be colonized to boot,or we can get serious and take all necessary measures as nation and equip ourselves with the means to exist in the format of our choosing.

To get to that point,if ever,we unfortuantley wil probably have to learn the hard way.
Problem with that is,if the hard way is a serious effort against aus then the game will probably be up for us,we lose and lose permanently.
So yes nothing irks me more than our refusal to stand on our own two feet other than the apologists who think allies and early warning will keep us in good stead.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Having a mobile airforce is better then one that is not mobile. What is the point of having Australia's largest airbase at Williamtown? Who is going to attack Australia from pacific? As far is Im concerned, Amberley is as far south as an airbase, espcially one with fighters should be. Whats the use of having 2 squadrons of hornets (F-35 in the future) at Williamtown when the most likely place of attack is from the north, north western coast of Australia? And dont go on about "who would attack Australia", because that is the sort of ignorance that countries went by in WWII and look what happened. Having a mobile force of fighters that have the capability to deploy to any part of Australia is a good thing, and if anyone thinks otherwise, your dreaming.
Before going off half-cocked, consider for a start, that you are wrong. RAAF Amberley is now Defence's biggest airbase. Secondly, why don't you pause for a bit, take a deep breath and then actually have a look at where RAAF has it's bases?

Here is a nice pretty map, showing all of RAAF's active bases.

Royal Australian Air Force Bases - Google Maps

To which you can add 3x "bare bases" capable of being activated in a time of war. These include RAAF Scherger, located at Weipa in far Northern Queensland, RAAF Learmonth at Exmouth in North Western Australia and RAAF Base Curtin at Derby North Western Australia. All of which are positioned and designed, to accomodate DEPLOYED RAAF and ADF elements, exactly where you think they should be... In this case, ADF and Government happen to as well.

Here is the full list of operational and bare RAAF bases within AustrRalia, plus RAAF Butterworth, which is still maintained with a RAAF detachment.

RAAF Bases: Royal Australian Air Force

RAAF can operate tactical fighter elements from the overwhelming majority of these bases and does so on a regular basis. RAAF regularly deploys forces and tests it's capability to do so, constantly.

The REASON that RAAF Williamtown is the primary home of RAAF's fighter force is it is the traditional home of RAAF fighter force. It was once considered important to maintain some strategic depth in defence, it might just be the case that, that is STILL important today... Wouldn't it be a great idea to base our entire Air Force in the north of the Country, if such a surprise attack occurred?

Don't you think therefore, that perhaps it is not an entirely unreasonable proposition to situate the bulk of our air combat capability in an area that actually makes use of our geographic reality and denies same to a potential enemy? It is a lot easier to fly fighter elements to a deployment base than it is to reconstitute a destroyed air force...

On top of this, defence industry capability to support our fighters is based there. RAAF's Operational Conversion Unit is based there and the base is big enough and modern enough to accomodate the fighter squadrons, OCU, maintenance and training facilities, plus it has good access to on-shore and off-shore training areas.

"We have allies, who maintain air bases for instance." Yer, so? What happens if that base gets bombed out? Air refuelling capabilities? Yer, because the 5 hour transit flight over Australia to where the action is actually taking place will require this obviously. What good is a cruise missile going to be in a close air support role? And believe me, I think its great we are getting the Tomahawk, but in the role you suggested it in it just would not work. Nor would helicopters. You cannot replace fixed wing carrier ops with helicopters, which is what has happened.
The "bombed out base" will be repaired I imagine, with aircraft dispersed before it is struck. Force protection measures are considered before operations are conducted and implemented whilst operations are being conducted. There are no guarantees in war. What if the enemy sinks our pseudo-carrier one might ask? What fire support will the digs have then? Investing in F-35B would most likely soak up all the funding for a cruise missile capability and probably all the other fire support projects ADF wants as well. The list of potential "whatifs" is endless.

Exactly what "fixed wing carrier ops" have we replaced, btw? Australia hasn't run a fixed wing carrier capability since 1982... Funnily enough, we've survived nearly 30 years now without a carrier. The world hasn't ended in that time and we've run plenty of amphibious operations in Asia and the South Pacific...

As already outlined above, you've forgotten entirely that RAAF has a well practiced and sound deployment capability with it's fighter force. Defence of Australia operations would NOT be run from fighters based at Williamtown, so some of the more ridiculous arguments in that little rant do not even apply.

I think you are a little bit too concerned about "CAS" too. The ADF is becoming increasingly joint. The digs on the ground couldn't care less where a bomb comes from, so long as it suppresses or destroys the enemy when they need it. JTAC's control all in-direct fires in CAS situations nowadays and don't overly care either what delivers the effect, so long as it IS delivered and achieves the mission.

Under current plans, Navy is going to have 127mm guns with long ranged land attack capabilities. It is also going to have a long ranged cruise missile capability. Whether this is Tomahawk or some other missile system remains to be seen.

RAN and Army are also likely to have an attack helicopter capability present in theatre in any amphibious operations (Navy has a requirement for a short ranged air to surface missile capability from it's new maritime warfare helos) and the digs obviously will have the full range of direct and in-direct fires that Army will be able to deploy on any of these operations.

That is a far better fire support capability than ADF can generate now and it is a far better fire support capability than ADF had when we DID run a carrier. Hoping for more is unrealistic, especially when the boats we are buying aren't suited to it.


And once more the "allies" comes out. When is Australia going to stand on its own two feet and take control of our own defence. We cant keep relying on our allies to always be there to clean the mess up and take control like the Americans would. At the end of the day there is no way that you can think that if an attack was to occur, we would be ready. Having fighter squadrons on the east coast of Australia is stupid, so is basing a maritime and anti-submarine aircraft in SA. If we want to be prepared for what the future may hold, there has to be some serious changes in the way the Government handles defence.
The problem with your argument is that you do not consider reality. Heard about the problems with manning the submarine squadron, have you? Well they are based in Perth. Imagine if it were based on the North West Coast of Australia. Who exactly would want to join then? The majority of our major capabilities are based near our population and industrial bases, for what should be obvious reasons. If you can't grasp that, then perhaps doing a little critical thinking, couldn't hurt.
 

RAAF-35

New Member
RAAF-35 said:
When is Australia going to stand on its own two feet and take control of our own defence. We cant keep relying on our allies to always be there to clean the mess up and take control like the Americans would. At the end of the day there is no way that you can think that if an attack was to occur, we would be ready. Having fighter squadrons on the east coast of Australia is stupid, so is basing a maritime and anti-submarine aircraft in SA. If we want to be prepared for what the future may hold, there has to be some serious changes in the way the Government handles defence.
Dont know what its gonna take for aus to stand on her own two feet.
We hid behind the brits from settlement till the fall of singapore.
We then hid behind the US and still continue to do so.
We have the head in the sand opinionists with a threat takes time to materialze or big and powerfull friends will come to our aid.
We have an ascendant china and india,both with over 1000 million people.
We have 7.6 million square kilometres of land,similiar in size to china,more than twice the size of india.
We have just 22 million people.
We have large resources.
China and India are fueling ever increasing competition for resources.
We may have a much humbled US military capability in concert with a much prouder Chinese and Indian military capability.

So we either can learn Chinese or Indian and become subseviant to 1 and be colonized to boot,or we can get serious and take all necessary measures as nation and equip ourselves with the means to exist in the format of our choosing.

To get to that point,if ever,we unfortuantley wil probably have to learn the hard way.
Problem with that is,if the hard way is a serious effort against aus then the game will probably be up for us,we loose and loose permanently.
So yes nothing irks me more than our refusal to stand on our own two feet other than the apologists who think allies and early warning will keep us in good stead.
Finally someone who agrees with me.
 
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