F-35 Fantasy or Fake F-35 Discussions Debunked

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
In addition to... well, all of it, I'm particularly curious about the logic behind the "missile loadout for fighter performance" metric too. I read through the article and couldn't see much of a basis for it. What is the dominant part of the metric, the "missile loadout" part, or the "fighter performance" part? It seems intentionally misleading, as does the catch-all nature of the comparisons. Stating "does my fighter have quality x, yes/no" doesn't tell anything near to the full story.

On that note the article sets out facts in a way that could be construed as somewhat deceptive. Implying the F-35 is an attack aircraft in the same category as the A-4 and F-117 and therefore cannot be considered a fighter is a bit rich - for starters even on a basis of equipment alone it completely ignores sensor fit, information sharing systems, and BVR capability. But then it goes on to tout sensor fusion and information layering systems as one of the Typhoon's great strengths! Never mind that the differences between the two aircraft would probably result in their being tasked and utilised for the anti-air role differently... it boggles the mind that a anyone could keep a straight face while claiming the United States Air Force was intending on replacing the vast, vast majority of its combat jet fleet with an aircraft not intended for air to air combat.

I don't want this to turn into a this versus that thing, so I should make it clear that I'm not having a go at the Typhoon. From what I understand the aircraft is very good at what it does. I am however absolutely having a go at the quality of writing. :D The article makes some very poor statements even if it's only intended to be advertising. The assertion that "If you can hide an F-117, you can hide a B-52!" is so profoundly ridiculous (especially when it's removed from its particular context and used in a broad sense) that I don't even know what to say.
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Why is every new weapon system a dud by media reports? Could this possibly show media bias? The media doesn't care about our pilots, our aircraft manufacturers, their unions, their employment, or our armed forces. The only interests of the media is to sell newspapers and create controversy whether its true or false...

The media can not even be trusted with their circulation numbers...
 

LGB

New Member
It's a tad misleading to cite the full contract price for an entire package and then compare that to unit cost; moreover, there are various unit costs as well. There is no price quote for 1,763 new F-16's to directly compare to that number of F-35A's. In any case the numbers cited are misleading in that they are not unit fly away. All the numbers that are given to Congress in the budget docs, discussed, and then widely reported upon are unit fly away (or similar). The numbers cited for F-16 costs are not.

In the chart included in Dr Carter's June 1st letter to Congress the projected total program cost rose $50 billion from 2 months prior to now $382 billion for 2,443 aircraft. This is an average price per aircraft by program of $155.6 million TY or $112.3 million in 2002 dollars. The average procurement cost is $133 TY or $92 million 02 dollars.


Precious![/QUOTE]
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It's a tad misleading to cite the full contract price for an entire package and then compare that to unit cost; moreover, there are various unit costs as well. There is no price quote for 1,763 new F-16's to directly compare to that number of F-35A's. In any case the numbers cited are misleading in that they are not unit fly away. All the numbers that are given to Congress in the budget docs, discussed, and then widely reported upon are unit fly away (or similar). The numbers cited for F-16 costs are not.

In the chart included in Dr Carter's June 1st letter to Congress the projected total program cost rose $50 billion from 2 months prior to now $382 billion for 2,443 aircraft. This is an average price per aircraft by program of $155.6 million TY or $112.3 million in 2002 dollars. The average procurement cost is $133 TY or $92 million 02 dollars.


Precious!
[/QUOTE]

Except that this estimate is unproven. ;)
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Yes, its not proven, but the costs could be less or more... The government over the twenty to thirty year program is using conservative numbers considering inflation.... What if inflation is less for parts and labor? Nothing was or is printed in stone, these numbers are guesses, although an educated guess...

Just because a certain stock has gone up during the past six months doesn't necessarily mean the stock will continue to go up as quickly the next six months... No one attempts to get future stock prices in stone, but many do for some strange reason for aircraft prices in twenty years, much less two years...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I'm just having a little fun. ;) When it comes to op testing everything has to "be proven". But when it comes to estimates with exotic constraints like F-18/F-22 learning curves and no corrective measures plus HASC voiced its disregard and actual prices disprove it, then you have "evidence" in the naysayer world. :D
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
No it says "cheap" fighters aren't that cheap. The Rafale and Typhoon were claimed being the "best" fighters available.
So they're expensive, yet Raf and Ef still got crushed on cost?

I don't mind the semantics, put the UPC column is directly false, though Sweetman has made the same mistake and received a journalistic award for it, so perhaps it's the standard in those circles!
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
A fighter is a combat aircraft whose aerodynamic characteristics, sensor suite and weapon capabilities are optimised to achieve the control of the air. Fighters actively
look for and engage the opponent's fighter force. Strike aircraft generally avoid
engagements with other fighters

check out the link below http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef_world_2-2010b_Low.pdf

Page 9 Eurofighter world magazine actually takes on the F 35 ......:gun



KEY ATTRIBUTES 5TH GENERATION F-35/JSF
(AS DEFINED BY LM)
1 - VLO stealthiness (all aspect / multispectral) Low Observability only on front
aspect and with X-band radar
2 - Supercruise NO
3 - Supersonic performance focus NO
4 - Extreme agility NO
5 - High altitude ops (more than 50,000ft) NO
6 - Missile load-out for fighter performance NO
7 - Integrated sensor fusion YES
8 - Net enabled operations YES
I truly wonder who this rubbish is aimed at? Surely not internet fanboi's? As far as marketing material goes, I'm sure it is a competent production, but the information inside is simply amateur-hour at it's most obvious. Hence why such "luminaries" as ELP, RSF and Peter Goon around the place are so enamoured of it. Not that APA of course think anything much of the Eurofighter...

Funny Eurofighter didn't bother to include APA's final thoughts on the Eurofighter, "clearly the Eurofighter is competitive against F/A-18 and F-15/SU-27 class fighters, however the wisdom in investing in a conventional fighter, when LO fighters are about to hit mass production is questionable."


:D
 

Scorpion82

New Member
So they're expensive, yet Raf and Ef still got crushed on cost?

I don't mind the semantics, put the UPC column is directly false, though Sweetman has made the same mistake and received a journalistic award for it, so perhaps it's the standard in those circles!
But they don't misrepresent the costs as such. The table clearly says UPC. While I agree UPC is possibly not the best measure, perhaps it's what they are aiming at, comparing the UPC instead of fly-away. Who knows, but they at least don't misrepresent the UPC as fly-away.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
But they don't misrepresent the costs as such. The table clearly says UPC. While I agree UPC is possibly not the best measure, perhaps it's what they are aiming at, comparing the UPC instead of fly-away. Who knows, but they at least don't misrepresent the UPC as fly-away.
It's not that UPC is used, but that the journo divides "Package cost" with units. That's not an UPC as the package can (and does) include so much more.

Btw, I have for a time pondered what the Unit Production Cost used by the British for EF means. I take it it is the equivalent of the Weapon System Cost used by the yanks?
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Well that's of course true. With regards to the meaning of the costs Swerve might be able to explain it better. Costs differ from sale to sale however, that's why there are so many different numbers for different customers.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is it going to be easy to shoot down the JSF fighter due to some changes made in it ..... although it is stealthy some article here in the link below seems to throw some light on this issue .....check the link below....
Gajillion-Dollar Stealth Fighter, Now Easier to Shoot Down
Gizmodo is a great website for iPhones, iPads and other gadgets but for defense analyst? Not so much.

This bit right here:

Now, one of the JSF's now selling points was that it wouldn't have to worry to much about taking on anti-aircraft fire; the jet would be so stealthy that the ground-to-air guns would never find it. But according to a report published by Air Power Australia, the plane is easier to spot than originally advertised. In fact, it is "demonstrably not a true stealth aircraft."
Is absurd. No one who really follows military aviation takes those wacko's from APA seriously. They have a anti-Super Hornet and F-35 agenda, they want F-22's for Australia and a re-worked F-111 (with them being paid for the upgrades of course). APA did not have access to any classified data about the planes, all they did was look at some pictures of the prototypes and declared "IT IS NOT STEALTHY!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!" .
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Is absurd. No one who really follows military aviation takes those wacko's from APA seriously. They have a anti-Super Hornet and F-35 agenda, they want F-22's for Australia and a re-worked F-111 (with them being paid for the upgrades of course). APA did not have access to any classified data about the planes, all they did was look at some pictures of the prototypes and declared "IT IS NOT STEALTHY!" .
What are you talking about?! Do you not know that APA is the best source of information on the F-111, F/A-18, F-35, F-22 and Su-27 family of fighters? And that the fact that APA does not have access to the classified information is irrelevant, because Kopp & Goon already know everything. Or that the RAAF should be turned over to them, because they know what is best? Did you not know that?!

-Cheers
 

Scorpion82

New Member
all they did was look at some pictures of the prototypes and declared "IT IS NOT STEALTHY!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!" .
Funny enough that other people do the same with the PAK FA now, people who criticise APA for doing such things...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Funny enough that other people do the same with the PAK FA now, people who criticise APA for doing such things...
except its not that hard to see that the PAK-FA is not VLO.

eg
Fixed offset IRST
FOD ejectors.

claims are claims, but adding supporting (and usually self evident) detail separates the wheat from the chaff....

VLO is not voodoo/black magic. It just requires considered, coherent and rational input.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Fair point GF. Without measuring/calculating the impact on RCS of those features mentioned and without any knowledge about the materials it's still guesswork which is at best indicative, but not accurate. People do even take the 0.5 sqm RCS figure reported by Indian media for face value.
 
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