Singaporean Leopard 2A4s debut in Australia

[Waylander]

Since all our guys are or were conscripts, we know that anything not declassified, should remain that way - which means everyone is in on the same secret. Isn't getting everyone in on the secret a good way to keep the secret?

I doubt that any conscript based army is able to keep such a secret if any halfway capable foreign intelligence service wants to know more about it.
The nature of conscription is that everybody gets in. And with this one is always going to have some rotten eggs in your basket.
Not to talk of possible leaks in the foreign countries you train in.

I would think of it more of an open secret with which the public (foreign one it is) is fed in order not to put more oil onto the fire of a possible arms race in the region.
I would be surprised if Singapore's neighbours are utterly surprised when suddenly Cents run out of the warehouses in case of war.
The same applies for every other big ticket item in a conscript army.

 

[OPSSG]

...Isn't getting everyone in on the secret a good way to keep the secret?

I doubt that any conscript based army is able to keep such a secret if any halfway capable foreign intelligence service wants to know more about it.

I was joking...

We know that their intelligence service knows and we want them to know, via an indirect route - to deter them.

Malaysian politicians keeps saying we spy on them. If they say that they know then, they can only have done so by... spying on us.

 

[OPSSG]

As it turned out, he was at least truthful in that there WAS an SOF selection in 1986. But Singapore only officially acknowledged having an SOF nearly 10 years later. SOF was formed in 1986 in secret.

Even when SOF successfully ended a plane hijacking in Singapore 1991, SAF at that time gave the credit to Commandos. It was at an award ceremony for these "commandos" during the late 90's that it was officially revealed that they were actually SOF and not commandos.

This is just one illustration of SAF's unofficial "confirm or deny nothing" policy - that we can talk about.

I note that SOF exists as part of the Commando Formation - though the SOF recruit from beyond the commandos. So it was technically true that they are from a Commando Formation sub-unit.

I on the other hand have got a SOF trained friend (who was from an army unit) who dropped out of the Ranger course on his first try due to medical reasons. He went back and did it again.

 

[Waylander]

Ah, sometimes I am just slow to understand...

 

[Chino]

I doubt that any conscript based army is able to keep such a secret if any halfway capable foreign intelligence service wants to know more about it.
The nature of conscription is that everybody gets in. And with this one is always going to have some rotten eggs in your basket.
Not to talk of possible leaks in the foreign countries you train in.

I would think of it more of an open secret with which the public (foreign one it is) is fed in order not to put more oil onto the fire of a possible arms race in the region.
I would be surprised if Singapore's neighbours are utterly surprised when suddenly Cents run out of the warehouses in case of war.
The same applies for every other big ticket item in a conscript army.

You are correct and it is merely an official policy of not admitting anything. If it was an officially classified secret, my uncle would be in jail as he bragged about his time as Cent TC way back in the 70's while he was still in uniform drawing regular NCO pay.

I doubt MINDEF seriously expected secrecy. After all, it's an old tank, not a death ray ...

...

Funny how most people consider SAF as the one with most to hide. The reverse is true in that SAF is always the one to brag, whereas MAF & TNI are the quiet ones to watch out for.

Our neighbours do not comment on SAF's undeclared stuff because it serves mutual interests for them not to talk openly about our dirty laundry... so that we won't have to expose theirs.

Also, it is the old intel poker game of not letting others know, that you already know, as OPSSG also implies.

 

[Chino]

...Just in case we don't get the message, on 9 August 1991 (on Singapore's 26th National Day), an airborne assault exercise, codenamed Pukul Habis (Malay for 'Total Wipeout') was conducted by Malaysian-Indonesian paratroopers in a drop zone just 18km from Singapore in Johor.

Apparently, 1991 National Day wasn't the first SG National Day where MAF decided to hold military exercises.

The earlier incident/s were not made public but SAF units were put on standby.

 

[OPSSG]

I think it is best to understand the direct and indirect informational releases by all parties as 'information operations'. Some part of the information released is also used as a signal or as a means to de-escalate tensions.

Funny how most people consider SAF as the one with most to hide. The reverse is true in that SAF is always the one to brag, whereas MAF & TNI are the quiet ones to watch out for.

I've set out Red's post where he cites an interview given by our Chief of Army (COA). The COA talks about the need for regional cooperation, he then proceeds to list the new equipment to be purchased and the nature of the Leopard 2A4 upgrades. It is clear that the interview was done to ally any Malaysian fears and to increase military capability transparency.

It looks like Singapore Leo 2s will be an extremely advanced 2A5 or 2A5 plus plus or rather and more accurately a 2A6 with the L44 gun. Singapore`s Chief of Army revealed all these during an interview with the Asian Defence Journal;

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-2.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-3.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-4.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-5.jpg

In fact, if you read some of the 'news reports' more carefully, they are signals of intention. At the launch of the Police Coast Guard's (PCG) Shark Class vessels (all 10 are to be commissioned between 2009 and 2010), Minister for Home Affairs Mr Wong Kan Seng said that the Shark Class will be used to to patrol the waters off Pedra Branca. What he is saying that Singapore would like to de-escalate the Pedra Branca issue (a territorial dispute existing since 1979)* by moving from the RSN conducting patrols to the having the PCG conduct the same patrols. See below for a video of the Shark Class live firing of their 25mm Typhoon gun (which is able to hit a target 2.7km away).

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVaXlv-6Vko&feature=channel]25mm Typhoon gun on the Shark Class[/ame]

--------------------------
* Footnote: There's an audio parody ("The Rock 2: Pedra Branca") for a lighthearted look at the dispute. More serious info is cited below for the more serious minded:
(i) Scroll down the Malaysian Bar website to read the article on Malaysia using doctored photographs in their submissions to the ICJ - Now you see it, now you don't.
(ii) I note that Singapore navy's presence in the area had also been peaceful and non-confrontational and none of its officers had arrested any Malaysian fishing vessels. By comparison, Malaysia had aggressively arrested Singapore's fishing vessels in the area and raised tensions.
(iii) I would also like to note that while Pedra Branca is a small island, the fact that it is an island means it has it's own territorial sea. However, there is no agreement on the demarcation of Pedra Branca's territorial sea.

 

[Waylander]

It looks like I was right with my guess that the armor upgrade developed by IBD Deisenroth was intended for Singapore.

As it seems to be more directed against 360 degree CE threats unlike the usual frontal duell oriented armor upgrades it fits the threat matrix and urban/jungle environment found in Singapore.

Looks like a reasonable upgrade and together with the battelfield management system and the AC should make the Singaporean Leopards the most potent AFVs in the region.

Does anybody knows if Singapore also plans to buy special modern ammunitions? German DM13 or Israeli APAM would offer a very versatile HE and the US canister round would fit them well, too. Such rounds might be more useull than the handfull of KEs needed to counter the PT-91s.

 

[Nonsensical86]

It looks like I was right with my guess that the armor upgrade developed by IBD Deisenroth was intended for Singapore.

As it seems to be more directed against 360 degree CE threats unlike the usual frontal duell oriented armor upgrades it fits the threat matrix and urban/jungle environment found in Singapore.

Looks like a reasonable upgrade and together with the battelfield management system and the AC should make the Singaporean Leopards the most potent AFVs in the region.

Does anybody knows if Singapore also plans to buy special modern ammunitions? German DM13 or Israeli APAM would offer a very versatile HE and the US canister round would fit them well, too. Such rounds might be more useull than the handfull of KEs needed to counter the PT-91s.

so SAF 2A4s have upgraded armour package? i found this picture on the video of NDP 2010 website. looks like the 2A4s have upgraded armour. good news for our army.

 

[eckherl]

It looks like I was right with my guess that the armor upgrade developed by IBD Deisenroth was intended for Singapore.

As it seems to be more directed against 360 degree CE threats unlike the usual frontal duell oriented armor upgrades it fits the threat matrix and urban/jungle environment found in Singapore.

Looks like a reasonable upgrade and together with the battelfield management system and the AC should make the Singaporean Leopards the most potent AFVs in the region.

Does anybody knows if Singapore also plans to buy special modern ammunitions? German DM13 or Israeli APAM would offer a very versatile HE and the US canister round would fit them well, too. Such rounds might be more useull than the handfull of KEs needed to counter the PT-91s.

When will they start installing this, also Singapore already gets their Sabot and Heat rounds from Germany so I would think that DM13 would be a preferred choice.

 

[Waylander]

The picture is a screenshot taken at a parade in Singapore so I assume that they already started upgrading their Leos.

While I also think that DM13 would be a natural choice given their other ammo and the support they get from Germany Israel is an important partner to them and the 120mm APAM is similar in performance.

 

[eckherl]

The picture is a screenshot taken at a parade in Singapore so I assume that they already started upgrading their Leos.

While I also think that DM13 would be a natural choice given their other ammo and the support they get from Germany Israel is an important partner to them and the 120mm APAM is similar in performance.

They did not waste any time getting this kit, I wonder if it was part of the initial tank purchase agreement.

 

[Waylander]

IBD worked on this for quite some time and they developed it for a special customer, so I assume that they got the conctract as soon as Singapore decided to buy the Leos.

 

[eckherl]

IBD worked on this for quite some time and they developed it for a special customer, so I assume that they got the conctract as soon as Singapore decided to buy the Leos.

Was Singapore the special customer or are we talking about possibly someone else.

 

[Waylander]

IBD said that they developed this for one special customer.

Most Leo II users already upgraded their tanks with a KWS II like solution (Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal), have their own upgrade program (Turkey, Switzerland) or no intention to upgrade theirs (Norway, Austria, Poland).

This left Chile, Finnland and Singapore in the equation.
Chile is a new customer and money might be a problem in their case, Finnland has a more conventional threat matrix were a KWS I/II like upgrade would fit better.

Singapore has both, the money and the threat matrix so my bet was on them being the one special customer.

 

[Onkel]

Finnland has a more conventional threat matrix were a KWS I/II like upgrade would fit better.

Could you explain this conclusion to me? What makes the difference? Is the armor´s allocation on the tank differing between the KWS I/II and APAM or where are you pointing at?

 

[Waylander]

The KWS II is optimized against KE In the frontal aspect. The side turret also gains some additional protection but that much.

The IBD package features a much more comprehensive all around protection against CE threats while the front is not as much upgraded to withstand KEs as the KWS II is.

With Russia on it's border Finnland has a much more traditional tank on tank duel threat environment where a KWS I/II upgrade makes more Sense. Singapore on the other hand only has a handfull of PT-91s as the main direct fire gun threat while guided and unguided AT-weapons in constricted terrain are the main threat. For such a threat matrix the IBD package is usefull.

 

[Onkel]

The KWS II is optimized against KE In the frontal aspect. The side turret also gains some additional protection but that much.

The IBD package features a much more comprehensive all around protection against CE threats while the front is not as much upgraded to withstand KEs as the KWS II is.

With Russia on it's border Finnland has a much more traditional tank on tank duel threat environment where a KWS I/II upgrade makes more Sense. Singapore on the other hand only has a handfull of PT-91s as the main direct fire gun threat while guided and unguided AT-weapons in constricted terrain are the main threat. For such a threat matrix the IBD package is usefull.

As I thought. Many thanks for your quick anwer!
By the way, the IBD Package could have been an interesting item for the Leopard 2 PSO Version, if it was combined with a good roof protection. But that´s not more than an idea that will never be realized.

 

[Waylander]

The proposed PSO package is based on parts of the KWS II upgrade. That results in it being easily implemented onto existing Leos which already feature the KWS II package. So one only needs to add the additional items to a Leopard IIA6 to make a PSO out of it.

If one wants to use the IDB solution one would need to remove the KWS II Package.

So the IBD package only makes sense if one wants to upgrade A4s and not A5s or higher.

 

[Onkel]

The proposed PSO package is based on parts of the KWS II upgrade. That results in it being easily implemented onto existing Leos which already feature the KWS II package. So one only needs to add the additional items to a Leopard IIA6 to make a PSO out of it.

If one wants to use the IDB solution one would need to remove the KWS II Package.

So the IBD package only makes sense if one wants to upgrade A4s and not A5s or higher.

I know, I know. My thoughts where just about useability of the much more comprehensive all around protection for urban and asymetric warfare. It was not ment to be a serious proposal.