The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Apart from that, go & google pictures of the Franco / Italian equivalents & compare them to Type-45, then answer this question....


Which, of all 3 designs, is the best looking (asthectically pleasing), design....


I KNOW the answer before you've looked ! :p:


SA :D
Two guns side by side looks weird. And I know the answer without looking as well :D
 

Moonstone

New Member
I think the obvious lack of lack of weapon systems cluttering up the upper deck of the RN'sType 45 Destroyers tends to give them a rather pleasing 'designer' look that must be the envy of other navy's . I hear the MOD intends to keep the Queen Elizabeth class carriers similarly free of untidy flight deck obstructions - such as aircraft for instance .
 
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1805

New Member
1805, I cant understand your almost obsesion with a hi-lo mix. Im not claiming to be an expert, or having a pop but the last decade has shown one thing. Iraq AND Afghanistan equals overstretch. I think your views that we need more airframes , dozens of low end warships etc assume we are going to be fighting in numerous low intensity conflicts, in geographical areas A,B,C and D simultaneously, therefore needing all these low end weapons to suppress a few fuzzywuzys.

More likely the UK will be able to do one conflict at anyone time, something like 10,000 troops deployed. We might be able to do a second conflict but it would be a lower case "b"conflict. Any politician who over commits us like we have been in the last decade will get the boot.

Therefore rather than developing a new array of low cost platforms (which as we know when UK industry is involved, is never low cost) we should invest in the high end and use them for low intensity conflicts when necessary.

We still need that first class, heavy hitting punch, be it RN taskforce with CV,Astutes, F35 and a flexible and deployable army and RAF.

There is no UK home threat at present. But as long as we can deploy 10,000 troops, 50 or so RAF fighters and a decent sized naval force overseas, then we are in good shape and will be able to do pretty much the same missions we have been over the last 30 years. I cant see the point of spending money on low tech platforms that cant go up against a decent foe. Rather than 10 Hawk or Hawk equivalents I would rather 2 F35s because the Hawk will be toast against a SU30, but the F35 will be able to blow up a taleban hut and down the Sukhoi.

Once you tell politicians that your military will accept kit only fit for low end, you will never persuade them to go back to buying the decent stuff when a real threat comes along. We will cease to be a serious military.
You contradicted yourself; you say the main issue has been overstretch, (we agree on something!), and then you rubbish all suggestion to maintain reasonable force numbers by applying appropriate equipment to risk, insisting on a “sledge hammers to crack a nut” approach in all cases?

Quoting Iraq & Afghanistan at me does seem bizarre as they are just the sort of conflicts that reinforce my point. As over the past 20 years operations have been frequent and not particularly high tech, even when they have been "state to state".

I am not saying we should not have high quality systems, but if we mix them with lower cost ones we can maintain workable numbers which is equally important. 18 (and declining) frigates/destroyers, just does not seem to be enough to keep credible forces in all the locations required. I don't see that a ship like the F2000 design is that great a compromise for policing work, but at the same time could stand in the frontline in an emergency. I just don't see why you have a problem with this?

Your view on deployments is amazing, “we will just have to cut back on them to meet our force numbers” when does it ever happen like that? As we are probably committed in significant numbers to Afghanistan for at least another 5 years; it seems very likely we may have to do more than one deployment at once again.
 
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Premier Cameron have said today that the finantial situacion in U.K. is worst than expected and heavy cuts will be made in Britain, I hope that the carriers are safe, in my opinion the 2 carriers are needed as well as at least 20 escorts, this is the minimum number to keep the sea lanes open in a conflict.
 

Troothsayer

New Member
Premier Cameron have said today that the finantial situacion in U.K. is worst than expected and heavy cuts will be made in Britain, I hope that the carriers are safe, in my opinion the 2 carriers are needed as well as at least 20 escorts, this is the minimum number to keep the sea lanes open in a conflict.
Everybody expects 10-15% MoD cuts next year, perhaps more (defence is ringfenced this year) . Cameron didn't really announce anything today that wasn't known months ago (made a big point about £70bn repayments in 5 years if we do nothing now - this was the 'worse than thought' stuff but this had already widely been reported as the situation months ago).

We'll have to wait for the SDR later this year to see what gets cut but from noises coming from certain sources/liam fox etc the carriers look set to get the go ahead. F35 numbers are looking more vulnerable however.

Still as has been pointed out - for the RN. Carriers first, airwing second.

Interesting piece in the London Evening Standard, says the Army & RAF will likely take the brunt of cuts
British Army could shrink to its smallest size since the Boer War | News

Dr Fox appears to favour the Royal Navy as the key to Britain playing a role on the global stage on matters ranging from security in the energy-rich High Arctic and containing Iran's bid to become a nuclear power.
Again, probably just speculation. We'll have to wait and see...
 

Hambo

New Member
You contradicted yourself; you say the main issue has been overstretch, (we agree on something!), and then you rubbish all suggestion to maintain reasonable force numbers by applying appropriate equipment to risk, insisting on a “sledge hammers to crack a nut” approach in all cases?

Quoting Iraq & Afghanistan at me does seem bizarre as they are just the sort of conflicts that reinforce my point. As over the past 20 years operations have been frequent and not particularly high tech, even when they have been "state to state".

I am not saying we should not have high quality systems, but if we mix them with lower cost ones we can maintain workable numbers which is equally important. 18 (and declining) frigates/destroyers, just does not seem to be enough to keep credible forces in all the locations required. I don't see that a ship like the F2000 design is that great a compromise for policing work, but at the same time could stand in the frontline in an emergency. I just don't see why you have a problem with this?

Your view on deployments is amazing, “we will just have to cut back on them to meet our force numbers” when does it ever happen like that? As we are probably committed in significant numbers to Afghanistan for at least another 5 years; it seems very likely we may have to do more than one deployment at once again.
I would disagree that the operations over the last 20 years have not been hi-tec. Wouldnt you class the 2 Gulf Wars, The Balkans and Afghanistan as Hi -tec? There is the myth that Afghanistan is a cheap low tec conflict. Just look at the cost of buying and deploying UCAVs, satellites for comms etc.

You cannot deploy a cheap and cheerful platform such as a Hawk anymore, those days of butchering 20 civilians and just writing it off as one of those things have gone. The pilot needs to see what he is targetting, hence cheap and cheerfull wont work, you need top class sensors, targetting pods, recon and intelligence assets, and that costs,, to the point that upgrading a platform such as Hawk or a Tucano wont be as cost effective as we could imagine.

There is a budget, it isnt going to grow. At present we will have 23 top class surface escorts from that budget. If you want to add a cheaper, lesser tech vessel to the fleet then the numbers of first rate ships will drop. I just cant see the value of doing that. An F2000 or alternative, will inevitably lack the comprehensive sensor and weapons fit of a larger ship , otherwise the costs of the two types will narrow getting rid of any supposed numbers gain. Sending such a ship into harms way "in an emergency" is a sure fire way of getting a lot of dead sailors, that is why I have a problem with it.

If you want cheap and cheerful policing vessels then fine, but they are just that, you cant seriously then expect our fellow citizens to become canon fodder. In a shooting war , quality counts and that quality costs, if we get less numbers to give our personel the best chance of survival then so be it. Sending an under armed low tech vessel into a hot zone is the Naval equivalent of the snatch land rover disgrace. Once the Navy accepts a low cost patrol vessel at the cost of first rate ships then a steep decline will occur IMO.

Yes we might do two conflicts, one major one, one policing, anymore than that and it is pushing it.
 
There is a budget, it isnt going to grow. At present we will have 23 top class surface escorts from that budget. If you want to add a cheaper, lesser tech vessel to the fleet then the numbers of first rate ships will drop. I just cant see the value of doing that.
Erm...!

Can we not sell-off one Batch-III T-22 and one Type-23 - to friendly-folks - just to release a few more resources (sailors included)? Does BAe still have the Brunei corvettes as well...?

Three B3-22's and 16 T23s should be enough* if - and only if - we can put light-frigates into areas of 'low-maintenance'. The Carrib' and the IO - Persian Gulf extant - do not require "capital" escorts. I know that C3 is currently in post-mortem, but we must be able to find low-cost corvettes for non-essential work (thus relieving the major-units)...? :lam

* Assuming three corvettes in the Carrib, and a job-creation scheme for a few more**.
** Pipe-dream for the IO. :smokie
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Nakhoda Ragam corvettes have no hangar, which is a bit of a problem for the West Indies station, where the helicopter has proved a most useful tool for hunting drug smugglers & the like.
 
The Nakhoda Ragam corvettes have no hangar, which is a bit of a problem for the West Indies station, where the helicopter has proved a most useful tool for hunting drug smugglers & the like.
Yeah, but....

Innit' why the last government bought all those South-Korean MARRS vessels? :rosie
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Yeah, but....

Innit' why the last government bought all those South-Korean MARRS vessels? :rosie
Nakhoda Ragam corvettes were designed for a tropical climate, not suited to the North Sea / English Channel. Would require addional modifications to enable the crew to live a semi-comfortable existance anywhere but the South China Sea.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Nakhoda Ragam corvettes were designed for a tropical climate, not suited to the North Sea / English Channel. Would require addional modifications to enable the crew to live a semi-comfortable existance anywhere but the South China Sea.
besides I thought they were sold to Algeria
 
besides I thought they were sold to Algeria
Damn! They would have been useful. [Oh: the last govan-ment probably knew that. :( ]

As for floating the same vessels in the North-Sea: How many posters read threads before posting? The class would be best used in the Carrib/IO not the North Sea. I am only trying to rationalise the utilisation of our resources.

Note-to-mods: Can we have a rationalisation of comments (as opposed to a b1tch-fest).
[P.S.: Can we cull the sad comments that closed the 'British-Army' thread so that a sensible conversation may - once again - be resumed...?] :ban
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Damn! They would have been useful. [Oh: the last govan-ment probably knew that. :( ]

As for floating the same vessels in the North-Sea: How many posters read threads before posting? The class would be best used in the Carrib/IO not the North Sea. I am only trying to rationalise the utilisation of our resources.

Note-to-mods: Can we have a rationalisation of comments (as opposed to a b1tch-fest).
[P.S.: Can we cull the sad comments that closed the 'British-Army' thread so that a sensible conversation may - once again - be resumed...?] :ban
And as someone already commented, they do not have a helicopter hanger, and the helicopter is probably the most used piece of equipment on the ship deployed on that task for chasing drug smugglers.
 
And as someone already commented, they do not have a helicopter hanger, and the helicopter is probably the most used piece of equipment on the ship deployed on that task for chasing drug smugglers.
And as I pointed out, did not the last govan-ment purchase the RFAs that could support these vessels? Read the threads. :wah
 

swerve

Super Moderator
And as I pointed out, did not the last govan-ment purchase the RFAs that could support these vessels? Read the threads. :wah
But then you need to deploy a RFA and some corvettes, while at present, a single RFA can (& sometimes does) do the West Indies station. Why support a ship which is there to exist as a helicopter landing pad (its other weapons are irrelevant to the task it's engaged in) with a ship with a bigger helicopter landing pad? Why not cut out the monkey & go straight to the organ grinder?

The West Indies station is a job for an OPV(H) these days. We could get BAMs if we wanted new ships for it: cheaper to buy than the Nakhoda Ragams unless the latter were heavily marked down, much cheaper to operate, & much better suited to the task.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nakhoda Ragam corvettes were designed for a tropical climate, not suited to the North Sea / English Channel. Would require addional modifications to enable the crew to live a semi-comfortable existance anywhere but the South China Sea.
Hmmm...

They were built in Glasgow & trialled in both Scottish exercise areas & those in the English Channel (for approx 1 to 3 years, across the group of 3 ships).

A very minor modification, (the addition of an electric heater element into the air-con systems) would be all that was needed. (something they did without while being operated in the UK !)

AFAIK, they HAVE NOT been sold to anyone yet. :rolleyes:They have been berthed in Barrow-in-Furness (for about 3 years now), where a German company is attempting to sell them, with Algeria allegedly being interested.

If these vessels were sold, I reckon that Janes would have covered it in their Naval section (which, as far as I'm aware, they haven't).

They have 'Aviation Support' facilities, so they can 'support' (fuel) a helo, so COULD be used in drug enforcement tasks.

Nakhoda Ragam Class Offshore Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

However, they are expensive & heavily armed for an OPV.

SA
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Erm...!

Can we not sell-off one Batch-III T-22 and one Type-23 - to friendly-folks - just to release a few more resources

Three B3-22's and 16 T23s should be enough

Ah! there's a slight flaw in your numbers...

ONLY 16 Type-23's were built, & we've already flogged 3 of them !

Do you think we can afford to sell off any more of our fleet ???

SA :sick
 

1805

New Member
I would disagree that the operations over the last 20 years have not been hi-tec. Wouldnt you class the 2 Gulf Wars, The Balkans and Afghanistan as Hi -tec? There is the myth that Afghanistan is a cheap low tec conflict. Just look at the cost of buying and deploying UCAVs, satellites for comms etc.

Of course Hi-Tec systems were used in all three wars you quote, but to what degree some of the more expensive systems, particularly aircraft, were needed to minimise our casualties is questionable. The real loses have come from poor decisions made and their impact on the post invasion security effort.

You cannot deploy a cheap and cheerful platform such as a Hawk anymore, those days of butchering 20 civilians and just writing it off as one of those things have gone. The pilot needs to see what he is targetting, hence cheap and cheerfull wont work, you need top class sensors, targetting pods, recon and intelligence assets, and that costs,, to the point that upgrading a platform such as Hawk or a Tucano wont be as cost effective as we could imagine.

I don’t think the Hawk 200 is particularly lacking, in systems for the task, it has a version of the Northrop Grumman APG-66 used in upgraded F16? It’s a poor argument that only an F35/Typhoon can be trusted to bomb safely? The Harrier seemed to be more than capable and is really a fairly cheap light attack aircraft; attack helicopters/UAV are lighter than a Hawk?


There is a budget, it isnt going to grow. At present we will have 23 top class surface escorts from that budget. If you want to add a cheaper, lesser tech vessel to the fleet then the numbers of first rate ships will drop. I just cant see the value of doing that. An F2000 or alternative, will inevitably lack the comprehensive sensor and weapons fit of a larger ship , otherwise the costs of the two types will narrow getting rid of any supposed numbers gain. Sending such a ship into harms way "in an emergency" is a sure fire way of getting a lot of dead sailors, that is why I have a problem with it.

If you want cheap and cheerful policing vessels then fine, but they are just that, you cant seriously then expect our fellow citizens to become canon fodder. In a shooting war , quality counts and that quality costs, if we get less numbers to give our personel the best chance of survival then so be it. Sending an under armed low tech vessel into a hot zone is the Naval equivalent of the snatch land rover disgrace. Once the Navy accepts a low cost patrol vessel at the cost of first rate ships then a steep decline will occur IMO.

Yes we might do two conflicts, one major one, one policing, anymore than that and it is pushing it.
I am not sure what you are saying here? I would see an F2000 in substitution of the T26, not T23 now. I would estimate that a F2000 armed to a similar level to the KD lekiu, would be as able to protect themselves as T23 and probably more likely to actually carry the weapons, than just “fitted for”. Yes some systems would probably go, but collectively maybe 16-18 F2000 v c 10-8 T26 would represent a better capability. Talk of “lots of dead sailors” is just a scare story I don’t buy, and as for encouraging a decline we have been facing that for years. Remember I am saying a Hi-Low mix not just Low
 
Just a few points of clarification:

Over on ARSSE they have a thread on how to implement 20% personnel cuts. As cut's are a-coming I was wondering if there could be a way for the Royal Navy to implement them without losing - much - operational capability.

SA:Yes I got my numbers wrong. Reducing to 3 T22BIII and 12 T23 should be ok if we used an OPV/Light-frigate for constabulary work (eighteen vessels over seventeen). If the Brunei vessels are overkill why use a T22 instead? As the T22 have C&C I'd like to keep them for flotilla leadership and the like. If the Nakhoda Ragam are still available then we should see medium/long-term savings in personnel and costs.

Swerve: I always thought the NRs had helicopter-support. Therefore they are similar solution to HMS Clyde. Would having a RFA nearby be a problem (as I assume one is usually about for disaster-relief ops)?
The BAMs are nice, but they are not a turn-key solution yet. We would also have to ensure we have the correct type available as not all appear to have a hanger.

We know that it will be hard for the Coalition to maintain current expenditure (let alone fill in the missing billions on procurement). I was just proposing one possible manipulation of the budget to eek out a little more. [We could always gift a T22 to Pakistan and transfer the replacement cost from the Overseas Aid funds.]
 
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