C-17 or A400M for Australia?

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'd like to know exactly how bad it is: I've seen the 12 tons in the press, but I've never seen a figure from Airbus. Has anyone else?
The generally used number in the German Press currently is 8 tons (usable payload 29 tons), with a requirement to 5 tons max from the German side (payload 32 tons eq. Puma Level A).
Never seen any number from Airbus or EADS. Or any "official" complaints from Occar, for that matter.
 

METEORSWARM

New Member
EADS asegura que el A400M volará a finales de 2009 - infodefensa.com - Información Defensa y Seguridad asegura que el A400M volará a finales de 2009




EADS ensures that the A400M fly at the end of 2009





15/06/2009 (Infodefensa.com) - the CEO of EADS and Airbus President, Louis Gallois , assured that the military transport aircraft A400M will make your first flight at the end of 2009. However, gave a margin of "weeks", demoraria as much first take-off at the beginning of next year. According to the planning, will be at the factory of Airbus military in Sao Paulo (Seville), in which assemble the aircraft.

Gallois is publicly reaffirmed in dates barajadas since the last to taking advantage of a prior to the opening of the room information day Paris air show. At the beginning of may, also the President ofAirbus military, Domingo Ureña , noted the existence of a detailed plan for the first flight of the aircraft, which have accomplished account member countries of the OCCAR (Organization European cooperation in arms field), the A400M ( see news ) future customers.

Moreover, EADS plans to meet at the end of June with the members of the programme countries,(Spain, France, United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg ) to fix common on the future of the multinational contract before the three years late position in aircraft development problems, according to EADS, one of the engine components as collects European press .

this meeting will be the final climax at three months of moratorium granted by these countries, whose term ends on July 1, during which a technical Committee was to review the conditions of the programme and establish a new plan of viability,( see news ). During these months, not all positions have been favourable, planning the possibility of resignations of contracts or claims of compensation from some countries customers, and even the suspension of the programme.

Gallois said that's agreement to give six months term EADS to renegotiate the terms of the programme carried out by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy-announcement is an excellent news for your company, which will be a very detailed attitude in the new phase of negotiation issues "technical in nature", calendar of deliveries and other specifications of the contract.

More power for Spain

The CEO of the European Aeronautics Consortium ensures that Spain has won power after the controversial integration of the aircraft Division of transport military (MTAD) at Airbus, forming the new Airbus military. Also stressed that "the power and capacity" now has the President of Airbus military, Sunday Ureña is "a lot more" because their business unit has "direct access to all resources in Airbus" and maintains full responsibility in the programme A400M .

Gallois emphasized the importance that Germany and France are agreed to continue with the program A400M position also supported by Spain, and expressed their hope in that countries buyers of the aircraft and your company "by the summer" agreement reached on the strategic transport aircraft.

Asked on whether EADS fears to Lockheed Martin take the backwardness of the A400M to sell its model the clients of that aircraft Super Hercules C130J , assured that this possibility would in any case a "compromise" until service enters the A400M .

Tanker

Moreover, Gallois advanced EADS participate "in an aggressive, fair and clean" the contest to select the manufacturer of the new fleet of the u.s. air force a billionaire to acquire more about 150 aircraft contract tanker baptized named KC-X.

Determined bet on the European Consortium for this program was ratified in the same forum by the President of EADS North America, Ralph Crosby , summarized its main priority with the following message: "tanker, tanker, tanker" ()( tank, tank, tank - the name with the referred to the contract of the USAF - refuelling aircraft).

Gallois relied on a fair development of new business competition at the reopening of the program that last year won the European company with the model A330 MRTT , equipped with the Spanish system replenishment and presented in association with American signature Northrop Grumman .



Greetings
 

Firn

Active Member
Something about the politics behind EADS:

Spain Skips Airbus Talks, Raising Eyebrows

Some observers said the incident at the Paris Air Show appeared to be linked to Spain’s pique over an EADS decision in April to fully integrate the group’s military transport aircraft division within Airbus and under the control of the chief executive, Thomas O. Enders.

“They felt that they had a small but privileged role in the partnership” that entitled them to some independence, said a person with knowledge of the Spanish government’s thinking, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of diplomatic repercussions.

The Spanish government is a founding shareholder of EADS, with a 5.5 percent stake. That investment has bought no small amount of prestige, as well as a significant amount of work over the years — most notably the A400M military transport, the only Airbus program with final assembly in Spain.

But the A400M project is now 5 billion euros over budget and several years behind schedule. The first of the planes was supposed to be delivered this year, but the transport has still not been flown. And the seven European governments that signed on to buy the first 180 planes are squabbling about renegotiating the terms of the contract.

So what started out as a program with significant Spanish bragging rights has become an albatross for Airbus and EADS.
 

luca28

New Member
Arm wrestling over A400M while aircraft nears maiden flight

defence.professionals | defpro.com

EADS confronts its European partner-nations

defpro.com | Negotiations between the European aerospace and defence giant, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), and its four so-called partner nations over a revised development and purchase contract for the A400M transport aircraft seems to be entering the final stages as the aircraft’s first flight is reported to be imminent – and predictably enough, the parties are flexing their muscles like boxers about to enter the ring.

As confirmed by Airbus Military officials, the much-troubled A400M is scheduled to take to the skies on its first test flight late this week. If ground tests go smoothly and weather conditions are optimal, the aircraft will perform its maiden flight on Friday. The event will certainly be a major step forward, but it will not solve all the problems weighing on this programme.

When the €20 billion ($28 billion) A400M project began, it was hoped that a first test flight would be held in 2008 and that air forces would have the plane in service by the end of this year. Technical problems, however, have caused huge delays, making evident that NATO countries will not receive their orders before 2013, at the earliest. Furthermore, at the same time EADS and Airbus Military, far from asking for forgiveness and understanding for their own mistakes and mismanagement, took on a rather belligerent attitude and started claiming that the contract was no longer financially profitable and they might well renege on the entire deal unless taxpayers cough up a few extra billion. “We have already set aside reserves of €2.3 billion ($3.27 billion) for the first 180 aircraft. I reckon that this money is lost. The first 180 machines will certainly not be profitable,” said Louis Gallois, the EADS chief executive in June.

This dire predicament caused the customer-nations to reassess the entire contractual situation to see how they might best react to it. All theoretical possibilities were originally set on the table: insisting that Airbus Military shall respect the delivery dates as stipulated in the contract and imposing harsh financial penalties (as specifically called for in the contract) on the company for its failure to do so; renegotiating the contract to attempt to accommodate for Airbus Military’s difficulties; reduce the number of aircraft on order to maintain the programme’s cost within the original ceiling; and, completely cancelling the programme (a move that would require consensus by all partners).

In July, the Defence Ministers of the seven European customer-nations decided to continue to support the programme and, at the same time, agreed for the contract to be renegotiated. This decision was not to everybody’s taste, however, and last month South Africa cancelled an order for eight A400Ms, citing delays and a huge cost increase from €830 million ($1.2 billion) to €4.1 billion – and this even before an agreement on the new contract is formulated. While the remaining seven contracting countries-- Germany (60), Spain (27), France (50), United Kingdom (25), Turkey (10), Belgium (7) and Luxembourg (1)-- together ordered 180 planes, in most cases to replace ageing Transall and C130 Hercules transports, in commercial terms, the A400M will only be a success for the company if it can win significant export orders.


Hot phase of negotiations

Last week, the seven countries met in Berlin to discuss the rising cost of the programme and the possibilities of a new contract with the industry and a new delivery date, revised characteristics of the aircraft and a new price. Just before the talks, the new German defence minister, Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, said that he and his French counterpart, Herve Morin, agreed that Paris and Berlin expects a “financial gesture” from EADS. Airbus Military is being asked to provide the number of planes as originally ordered, with no increase in costs. "Respect of the contract is not just semantics," Guttenberg said.

Final negotiation talks between EADS and the customer-nations will now restart after the maiden flight. These talks are crucial for the company, which intends to ask the nations to contribute to the increasing programme costs. German daily newspaper “Die Welt” quoted sources close to the negotiations as saying that the cost of the A400M project would rise as much as €5.5 billion ($8.3 billion), more than one quarter over the current figure of €20 billion. The newspaper also reported that the customers were willing to take on a certain part of these additional costs.


New provocation?

In this phase, Louis Gallois signaled yesterday that the company might break its current dependence from the nations which formed the European conglomerate in 2000, by saying that EADS will henceforth only create new jobs outside Europe. The declaration released in yesterday’s “Die Welt” could be seen as a harsh provocation. Indeed, EADS is not a normal private company; the Group is, and will continue to be in the future, heavily influenced by politics. All four countries pay subsidies to EADS and France and Spain are also major shareholders in this company. And, it was the taxpayers who have spent the past billions in subsidies to build and help EADS become one of the most powerful aerospace companies across the globe. Furthermore, Mr Gallois, himself, owns his current prestigious positions not only to his management skills but also – and this is a very big “also” – to a political agreement and balancing act between the French and German governments.

Given all of this, Mr Gallois’ statement should probably be seen as a strategic move aimed at pointing out that the European nations need EADS at least as much as EADS needs the nations. This might remind all parties of the meaning of the negotiations.


----
By Luca Bonsignore, Publisher
defence.professionals | defpro.com
 
Well..... 10 1/2 hours to A400M`s maiden flight, if everything goes acording to plan, tomorrow they should complete a 4 hour flight around the city of Seville (Spain) ETD 10.00 am Seville.
Good luck to them!
 
This is quick, first take-off on You tube

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX-kIUYRyDk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX-kIUYRyDk[/ame]
 

lopez

Member
why is it that foreigners think the Australian defence force is run on peanuts?

when you scale it with our population size and the size of our defnece force, it isn't really that bad...

thank god we got the c17...
:)
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Fat birds can fly! Looks very agile.
Funny you say that - the most impressive demo at the Avalon Airshow a few years back was the C-27J - now that pilot thought he was flying a pitts special! You expect the raw power of the jets, you don't expect that degree of agility from a 'fat bird'.
 

ab56452001

New Member
Funny you say that - the most impressive demo at the Avalon Airshow a few years back was the C-27J - now that pilot thought he was flying a pitts special! You expect the raw power of the jets, you don't expect that degree of agility from a 'fat bird'.
I second that , the C-17 is probably one of our best buy's in a while , may end up being even cheaper than the 400m in the end.
 

Red6

New Member
Buying the C17 was a good move

Bottom line: The A400 isn't strategic lift even though they market the plane as dual hatted like the C17. The A400 is a C130J-30 on steriods.

If Australia is going to war, the US will be there, not France, not Germany, not Italy. Maybe a good idea to use equipment shared by those you fight with.

The M1 was airlifted into Northern Iraq during OIF in 2003. Scenarios where you need to transport a MBT are not unrealistic. Realistically the C17 has significantly greater lift capacity since the A400 sacrifices payload for range. An A400 with any sort of load (beyond 30 tons) is essentially a puddle jumper. The C17 has a realistically shorter turn around time which also needs factored in when comparing lift capabilities.

The A400 (in typical Euro fashion) is already being cut to bare bones (Germany and the UK have cut their orders), what sort of upgrades and advancements do you think this platform will experience over her lifetime vs. the C17? Other examples of this in the past- C160. The US will actually continue to invest in upgrades and you can be assures that there are already special versions for this or that... The US has already pushed out upgrades to the C17 such as the interior mounted fuel pod, etc. The C17uses the same powerplant used on the B757, it makes use of COTS... Another factor to consider when mentioning cost is cost by weight moved, or cost over the lifetime of the airframe. The C17 has a high initial cost, but she's actually fairly efficient, has a low manhour to flight hour ratio to keep in the air, and an extremely high operational readyness rate, this isn't theoretical in some EADS pamphlet, but proven. The C17 already has 239 built and climbing (16 more this year), while the A400 has 182 on order with that number shrinking.

The C17 has some unique features that allow it to essentially fall like a rock not requiring the spiral down into an airport (where you have a MANPADS threat in outlying areas), it has an advanced floor and loading system that is without comparison, it needs no support on the ground even in ostere locations (can back up on own power). The C17 is packed with facets not listed in Wikipedia or the standard comparisons of range, cruise speed etc. For example, the C17 has a nitrogen fire suppression system for it's fuel, pulling the N2 from the air and filling the tanks, she has light armor panneling in certain areas... The C17 is expensive, but they essentially built a plane that can do it all and do it well (tactical and strategic lift).

If Australia buys a A400 (tactical airlifter), like the UK, you'll end up leassing or buying the C17 eventually anyway, because you really have no choice. It's a matter of "capabilities."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top