Best Multi-Role Warship?

Sea Toby

New Member
I don't know why anyone would want to show up with a little stick when a big stick is less than a week away. I prefer a big stick. A big stick is a carrier battle group...

Once a destroyer fires off its inventory of Tomahawks, it really don't threaten a nation. A carrier battle group can be sustained for months, a lone destroyer or frigate won't even last a month...

The whole point of this issue is when you show up, you show up to win a fight... not lose a fight... If you point a gun at someone, be fully prepared to shoot...
 

BK101

New Member
Reminds me of the movie "The Sum of All Fears" when a lone American aircraft carrier was attacked and almost sank by Russian jets.

---

Let me repost... How about the modern Kirov-class warship of the Russian Navy?
HaHaHa:laugh, My uncle, who has been in the Navy for 35 years, saw that movie and laughed when that happened! He said that no Aircraft Carrier would ever float without a escort to defend it.
Those jets would have to get past the air defense system of Frigates, Cruisers, and Destroyers first.
Anyway, sorry about my little feedback on that movie.

My pick for the overall best ship would be the USS Arleigh Burke destroyer. I feel that it has a unbelievable surface to air, surface to surface, anti submarine, as well as a anti ballistic missile defense system. Speed as well!! That is just my humble opinion!

Cheers!
 

gforce

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #43
HaHaHa:laugh, My uncle, who has been in the Navy for 35 years, saw that movie and laughed when that happened! He said that no Aircraft Carrier would ever float without a escort to defend it.
Those jets would have to get past the air defense system of Frigates, Cruisers, and Destroyers first.
Does that also goes to same with Amphibious Assault Ships like the USS Essex? The USS Essex will most of the time visit the Philippines without an escort. It fearlessly travels the South China Sea and the Taiwan Strait from Japan.

Anyway, sorry about my little feedback on that movie.
That's OK... I just loved Tom Clancy movies!

My pick for the overall best ship would be the USS Arleigh Burke destroyer. I feel that it has a unbelievable surface to air, surface to surface, anti submarine, as well as a anti ballistic missile defense system. Speed as well!! That is just my humble opinion!

Cheers!
Good choice! But was that the same ship class that was attacked by suicide bombers in Yemen, isn't it? Why such modern, powerful warship was attacked that easy?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Does that also goes to same with Amphibious Assault Ships like the USS Essex? The USS Essex will most of the time visit the Philippines without an escort. It fearlessly travels the South China Sea and the Taiwan Strait from Japan.



That's OK... I just loved Tom Clancy movies!



Good choice! But was that the same ship class that was attacked by suicide bombers in Yemen, isn't it? Why such modern, powerful warship was attacked that easy?
For starters the ship wasn't at battle stations to being with. Small craft in a busy port can get very close, We are vulnerable because we are friendly and anticipate the same in return. Simply put, terrorists use our friendliness against us...
 

Juramentado

New Member
For starters the ship wasn't at battle stations to being with. Small craft in a busy port can get very close, We are vulnerable because we are friendly and anticipate the same in return. Simply put, terrorists use our friendliness against us...
Whoa - hang on, Cole was at THREATCON Bravo, which meant they did have force-protection procedures in place for small boat attack. Like many incidents, the root causes are actually a series of cascade events. There are too many to go into, but some of the more highlighted issues:

* The strategic decision to use Aden as a refueling stop rather than the altready established Fueling station at Dijbouti
* DoD claimed Dijbouti security was in decline, hence the Aden stop, but State Department also indicated they wanted Cole as a show-the-flag measure to encourage the Yemeni government to align more closely with US goals in the region
* Cole had filed a Force Protection plan in up to 10 days in advance per SOP, therefore knowledge of the visit had to be shared with the Yemenis - it's logical to conclude there was a leak, most likely on the host nation part
* It's not clear the Yemenis lived up to their part of the FP plan - the host nation has to contribute part of the security measures
*The real measure of how much warning the US received prior to the attack will likely not be known, but what is known is that there was an "up-tick" in intelligence warnings regarding activity in the Gulf of Aden and Yemen in particular, why it was unheeded or not tied to the Cole's visit is another story

But it's incorrect to state that the ship was not in a heighted state of alert. The mere fact that the Inquiry Board found no fault with CDR Lippold (CO) is a statement in of itself. His subsequent denials of promotion to O-6 (CPT) were mostly a political witch-hunt because the Senate and then SECNAV Winters seemed to think that the Navy was too soft on assigning blame. Let's put it this way - he was found to not have implemented twelve procedures that the Senate investigation claimed would have mitigated the attack. One of them was using fire-hoses as a non-lethal option. The calculated explosive size was anywhere from 400 LBS to a stunning 1000 LBS. In a harbor like Aden with only three bunkering quays, the expectation is that there will be a LOT of small boat traffic, especially if you're reprovisioning while fueling is underway. Fire hoses ain't gonna cut it folks. Even if they had managed to stand off the offending vessel somehow (remember, part of the FP plan would have the Yemenis doing the bulk of traffic control and perimeter security on the water side), the blast would have still done quite a bit of damage to the upper works and superstructure. It's fair to say Cole's fate was sealed the minute she tied up to the quay.

To get back on-topic - any combatant is vulnerable to attack, especially at anchor or in harbor. A multi-role warship can't remain secure at rest without additional security measures, on, above and under water.
 
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BK101

New Member
Does that also goes to same with Amphibious Assault Ships like the USS Essex? The USS Essex will most of the time visit the Philippines without an escort. It fearlessly travels the South China Sea and the Taiwan Strait from Japan.


That's OK... I just loved Tom Clancy movies!


Good choice! But was that the same ship class that was attacked by suicide bombers in Yemen, isn't it? Why such modern, powerful warship was attacked that easy?
Now are we talking a ship against “Conventional Warfare”, or “Non-Conventional Warfare”?
What happened in Yemen was unprecedented and never happened before in today’s warfare.
1. Has any ship been attacked the same way since?
2. During that attack, the ship was in a tight high traffic area.
3. Since it never happened before, could you imagine if the ship fired and sank that little boat? The local media would’ve had a field day with that, saying that an American Navel ship fired on a pleasure boat and killed innocent civilians.
4. The ship never sank and is still in operation!!!
My statement is based on pure “Conventional Warfare”. If the U.S. had a protocol in place stating that any boat 100 meters from any of its’ Naval vessels would be attacked in close quarters, that incident would have never happened.
Cheers!
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I recall an incident when a US cruiser shot down an airliner at a time when combat operations were underway. The US government and navy were torn apart by the media...

Damned when you do, and damned when you don't...
 

BK101

New Member
I recall an incident when a US cruiser shot down an airliner at a time when combat operations were underway. The US government and navy were torn apart by the media...

Damned when you do, and damned when you don't...
Yours absolutely right Sea Toby!! Thank you!!!
For example…..”Damn the U.S. Navy for killing those innocent civilians in those small boats!!”, or “Damn the U.S. Navy for NOT shooting that little boat that killed U.S. sailors!”
Out come? If the U.S. would have killed and sank the little boat that had high explosives, the local media would’ve said that they were just innocent civilians fishing in the local area and that they came under attack by the U.S. Navy for no reason creating a anti-American resentment.
Since the ship did not fire on the boat, people like to think that……..”Oh!! The U.S. Navy is so easy to defeat!” “Look!!!.....a little boat with high explosives was able to defeat the most powerful navy in the world!”
Such a joke!!

Cheers!
 

Juramentado

New Member
Now are we talking a ship against “Conventional Warfare”, or “Non-Conventional Warfare”?
What happened in Yemen was unprecedented and never happened before in today’s warfare.
1. Has any ship been attacked the same way since?
2. During that attack, the ship was in a tight high traffic area.
3. Since it never happened before, could you imagine if the ship fired and sank that little boat? The local media would’ve had a field day with that, saying that an American Navel ship fired on a pleasure boat and killed innocent civilians.
4. The ship never sank and is still in operation!!!
My statement is based on pure “Conventional Warfare”. If the U.S. had a protocol in place stating that any boat 100 meters from any of its’ Naval vessels would be attacked in close quarters, that incident would have never happened.
Cheers!
There was a similar AQD attack on the USS The Sullivans (same ship class!) in January of 2000- BEFORE the Cole was bombed in October of 2000. This was not a surprise tactic and it should have been an indicator of things to come. The Sullivans attack failed because someone was clearly a believer in "more is better." The boat was so overladen with explosives that it sank. Ironically, those same explosives were salvaged and put to use against the Cole seven months later.

Asymmetric warfare doesn't require completely destroying a target. There is the concept of a mission-kill, meaning the target may not be obliterated, but it is unable to complete it's primary purpose. The Cole was definitely a solid mission kill - she had to travel home on the well deck of a salvage carrier. It was also a blow to perceived supremacy - it was shown as an example of how vulnerable US forces could be.

No offense, but do you know exactly what lethality of distance 400 LBS of of homogenous modern explosive has? Let's use the typical "Gouge" (slang for quick reference materials) for a close-air support (CAS) spotter on the ground. For an air-dropped Mk 82 500lb bomb (assume fused for ground contact, not airburst -this makes it equivalent to the minimum size delivered to the Cole), any explosion inside of 245 meters in proximity to friendly troops is considered Danger Close - meaning there's a 1:1000 chance someone's going to get hurt who isn't the target. Troops CRINGE at Danger Close calls. It's almost guaranteed someone who is friendly is going to get hurt. 105 meters (close to your estimate) means 1:10 chance someone's going to get hurt who isn't the target, better than playing the Lotto! And that's assuming everyone's under some form of effective cover (foxhole, bunker, shallow grave/fighting position). If you go with the pessimistic scenario, that it was closer to a 1000 LBS of explosive, that's a Mk 83 and the numbers work out to about 300m and 115-125m respectively. It's not a linear equation.

Now imagine that going off at 100m, surface burst, with personnel outside the skin of the ship or near open hatches and portholes facing the blast. Unlike the grunts, they're not under effective cover. Had the intent been anti-personnel rather than pure destructive contact power, they would have found a way to surround the core of the explosive with some sort of shrapnel - screws, nails, bolts, what have you. 100m, 10m, it wouldn't have mattered. The Yemenis or whoever was covering the perimeter should have known beforehand *exactly* which boats were cleared for provisioning and only those vessels are allowed to enter the perimeter. The Force Protection plan failed because one of the components (host nation) was either incompetent, corrupt or both.

If the FP team had fired on the vessel before it came in lethal range, one of two things would have happened - 1) a sympathetic explosion as the incoming fire detonates the bomb or the attackers blow it up themselves in the hope of doing damage to something valuable or 2) the attackers are neutralized and subsequent investigations show the vessel is a floating bomb. News at 11, but either way, it would have been a sympathetic clip given the evidence. And how many times since then have innocent civilians been killed running checkpoints in Iraq because they failed to heed the stop commands? You don't see dozens of young EMs sent home or imprisoned because they lived up to Force Protection requirements. Even the media understands why something like that happens.
 
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BK101

New Member
There was a similar AQD attack on the USS The Sullivans (same ship class!) in January of 2000- BEFORE the Cole was bombed in October of 2000. This was not a surprise tactic and it should have been an indicator of things to come. The Sullivans attack failed because someone was clearly a believer in "more is better." The boat was so overladen with explosives that it sank. Ironically, those same explosives were salvaged and put to use against the Cole seven months later.

Asymmetric warfare doesn't require completely destroying a target. There is the concept of a mission-kill, meaning the target may not be obliterated, but it is unable to complete it's primary purpose. The Cole was definitely a solid mission kill - she had to travel home on the well deck of a salvage carrier. It was also a blow to perceived supremacy - it was shown as an example of how vulnerable US forces could be.

No offense, but do you know exactly what lethality of distance 400 LBS of of homogenous modern explosive has? Let's use the typical "Gouge" (slang for quick reference materials) for a close-air support (CAS) spotter on the ground. For an air-dropped Mk 82 500lb bomb (assume fused for ground contact, not airburst -this makes it equivalent to the minimum size delivered to the Cole), any explosion inside of 245 meters in proximity to friendly troops is considered Danger Close - meaning there's a 1:1000 chance someone's going to get hurt who isn't the target. Troops CRINGE at Danger Close calls. It's almost guaranteed someone who is friendly is going to get hurt. 105 meters (close to your estimate) means 1:10 chance someone's going to get hurt who isn't the target, better than playing the Lotto! And that's assuming everyone's under some form of effective cover (foxhole, bunker, shallow grave/fighting position). If you go with the pessimistic scenario, that it was closer to a 1000 LBS of explosive, that's a Mk 83 and the numbers work out to about 300m and 115-125m respectively. It's not a linear equation.

Now imagine that going off at 100m, surface burst, with personnel outside the skin of the ship or near open hatches and portholes facing the blast. Unlike the grunts, they're not under effective cover. Had the intent been anti-personnel rather than pure destructive contact power, they would have found a way to surround the core of the explosive with some sort of shrapnel - screws, nails, bolts, what have you. 100m, 10m, it wouldn't have mattered. The Yemenis or whoever was covering the perimeter should have known beforehand *exactly* which boats were cleared for provisioning and only those vessels are allowed to enter the perimeter. The Force Protection plan failed because one of the components (host nation) was either incompetent, corrupt or both.

If the FP team had fired on the vessel before it came in lethal range, one of two things would have happened - 1) a sympathetic explosion as the incoming fire detonates the bomb or the attackers blow it up themselves in the hope of doing damage to something valuable or 2) the attackers are neutralized and subsequent investigations show the vessel is a floating bomb. News at 11, but either way, it would have been a sympathetic clip given the evidence. Video doesn't lie after all. :cool: Riiiight....
I understand what you are saying, and I don't want to get off topic here, but since what happened to the Cole, I really don't think that it would happen again.....Maybe...:p:
Like I said, I'm talking about Conventional Warfare. If we are going to talk about terrorist strapping bombs on to little boats in close quarters, than no navel ship is safe.
That is my ship of choice in my opinion.

Cheers
 

gforce

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #51
I found this interesting online video simulation of the Russian Kirov-class vs. the USS Ticonderoga

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAkWJuTx9cY[/nomedia]
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This is not a simulation but a video done by using the mission editor of the game Jane's Fleet Command. While being one of the more realistic war games out there this video shows nothing but some rather poor KI shooting at each other with no connection to real world operations.

Not that I didn't like what one could do to a carrier strike force with some Kirovs, Slavas and Oscars (If you find the carrier that is...).
 

Toby

New Member
i was under the impression the kirov was a floating target i imagine against a carrier battlegroup a kirov group wouldnt stand a chance as surely its a question of range the carriers planes can outrange the kirov and win it before the kirov was even in range.

and my opinion of the best multirole warship is the arleigh burkes
not to expensive ( half the price of a type 45)
has a strong air defence suite ground attack capability and asw capability
and not to big to be a floating target.
( i think the royal navy should by a few to compensate for the lack of 45s but that wont happen)
 

gforce

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #54
In the Top 10 Best Fighting Ships video made by the Military Channel. The USS Iowa-class battleship was ranked as the Top 1 and the 2nd was I think another WW2 ship or an aircraft carrier while the USS Ticonderoga-class cruiser was ranked third so does that mean that the USS Ticonderoga-class is the best modern warship of today?
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In the Top 10 Best Fighting Ships video made by the Military Channel. The USS Iowa-class battleship was ranked as the Top 1 and the 2nd was I think another WW2 ship or an aircraft carrier while the USS Ticonderoga-class cruiser was ranked third so does that mean that the USS Ticonderoga-class is the best modern warship of today?
Those shows are usually garbage and mostly won by whatever has the most impressive stock footage. I think I saw that show a few years ago and they left out several historically important ships.

For example The Iowa's spent more time in mothballs than in commission and their modern role was limited as an artillery platform and (much later) cruise missile platform.

As others have pointed out, there is no "best" if a ship meets its design requirements and the navy it is serving in is happy with its performance then that is all that really matters.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Even if you took the show for granted, one Iowa class battleship won't win a battle against another country's air force and navy...

What made the Iowa class formidable was the huge US Navy fleet and task forces they were apart of...
 

Saiga

New Member
i was under the impression the kirov was a floating target i imagine against a carrier battlegroup a kirov group wouldnt stand a chance as surely its a question of range the carriers planes can outrange the kirov and win it before the kirov was even in range.
An only Ship like a Kirov against a whole carrier fleet for sure.
But don't forget the Kirov surface - air capabilities, the newly upgraded Kirov's will carry 96xS400 rockets and something about 100xTorM2(figure is insecure) beside that it got a half dozen of Kasthan CIWCs maybe the best Long - middle - short air defended ship on the world.
Furthermore it carries 20x P700 Granit missiles with a range of 635km, in the future maybe some improved version of the Brahamos with a top speed of 5,35mach and a lot of other weapons.
Beside that it is not that easy to fly strikes against a S300 and in the near future S400.
So i would be quite careful with statements like they could "outrange" the kirov. The fighter would fly against a quite capable long range airdefence system with a highly improved radar system.
 

gforce

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #58
Those shows are usually garbage and mostly won by whatever has the most impressive stock footage. I think I saw that show a few years ago and they left out several historically important ships.
Here is the link of the Military Channel's Top 10 Fighting Ships video...

Top 10 Ships : Videos : Military Channel

There is a correction with my earlier post, the USS Ticonderoga-class cruiser was ranked 4th not third best.
 

haveblue128

New Member
MilChan-Top 10= Good TV-Bad Analysis

Here is the link of the Military Channel's Top 10 Fighting Ships video...
Have to agree with AegisFC.

I appreciate your interest in the MilChan. It is a good source of general knowledge info. However, consider the following:


* While the MilChan does its historical homework, they tell you little about their methodology. IE-A set of criteria they use to evaluate hardware. There is no clearly defined, or standardized manner of assessing platforms. Lots of vague end results.
* Many of their "Experts" are historians. Some are present analysts. Good combination but the concept of a "Top 10" is bogus. History has many lessons to teach present decision makers, but to ID any true top 10? Makes for good TV, but ends there.
* Accepting 1 source of information as truth is not a poor way to assess the quality of anything. Ships, Fighters, Shampoo or PCs. Triangulate your data. 3 sources is a start. :cool:

Note-Only “10 list” I’ve seen of note was last week’s Foreign Policy magazine “10 Worst UN Security Council Resolutions.”Funny and sickening at the same time.
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Yours absolutely right Sea Toby!! Thank you!!!
For example…..”Damn the U.S. Navy for killing those innocent civilians in those small boats!!”, or “Damn the U.S. Navy for NOT shooting that little boat that killed U.S. sailors!”
Out come? If the U.S. would have killed and sank the little boat that had high explosives, the local media would’ve said that they were just innocent civilians fishing in the local area and that they came under attack by the U.S. Navy for no reason creating a anti-American resentment.
Since the ship did not fire on the boat, people like to think that……..”Oh!! The U.S. Navy is so easy to defeat!” “Look!!!.....a little boat with high explosives was able to defeat the most powerful navy in the world!”
Such a joke!!

Cheers!
A nation's navy or coast guard cannot even bvoard a civilian ship. Notice in the news how Israeli boarders boarding a Turkish civilian ship were attacked.... It hit the fan quickly....

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....
 
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