Yes I think you are right but the techology in the SH is a good step up from what we have now. And I think you might not find or want anything else at this stage less than the SH. I think the SH is a mature plaform with many of the issues of the A/B model already addressed in the production aircraft. They have produced a much improved multi-rolled a/c which has room for block improvements and the lessons we have learnt with the previous model can be used to hopefully to foresee similar problems in the future to have a ready fix inplace for rapid introduction if the need arises.
Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
1. Our legacy Hornets are wearing out too quickly and the schedule buffer RAAF had previously planned for is being eroded by JSF delays.
2. JSF costs are increasing. They may not be anywhere near what the doom and gloom brigade say they are, but the aircraft is getting more expensive.
3. Our region is not advancing it's capability as rapidly as it might have done, under better economic circumstances. A 3x squadron level Super Hornet Block II force provides over-match in our region by itself. F-35 is "icing on the cake" and provides an extremely robust capability to deploy in Coalition operations if needed.
4. Government is tearing the arse out of the ADF budget for no good reason, IMHO with the SRP. We cannot afford to waste money on capability way over and above what we need anymore, given the already lopsided force structure in favour of RAAF (particular at RAN's warfighting expense) and the eroding of Army's sustainment capability with it's reserves force. The extra money the F-35 will cost over a Super Hornet will go a long way towards remediating some of the major ADF(as opposed to RAAF) warfighting deficiencies if appropriately invested in such...
In any event, that is what I would prefer to see happen, not what I think is likely to happen. The Defence White Paper plan is most likely to happenas it's written, I just think it's unnecessary and a quicker, cheaper option as I've outlined would be better.
The white paper defined several improvements to the ADF, not just the RAAF.
The SH provide good intrim capability and leave lots of cost effective options for the ADF. Given that several have been wired for growler capability, I wouldn't right off them being around with the adf for some time yet.
We now have time to concider, assess, plan and budget for F-35's. While we do know its the aircraft we should get into, the question is when and how many. If we can't form viable squads we will have to concider the options.
100 F-35's is a very large juicey number. That is more than other simularly sized forces are getting. Then again 12 subs, 11 7,000t destroyers and two 30,000t amphibs is more than most other forces are getting these days as well and will make us the most capable force regionally by a long way.
You would have to look pretty far north west to find something that would challenge that.
The SH provide good intrim capability and leave lots of cost effective options for the ADF. Given that several have been wired for growler capability, I wouldn't right off them being around with the adf for some time yet.
We now have time to concider, assess, plan and budget for F-35's. While we do know its the aircraft we should get into, the question is when and how many. If we can't form viable squads we will have to concider the options.
100 F-35's is a very large juicey number. That is more than other simularly sized forces are getting. Then again 12 subs, 11 7,000t destroyers and two 30,000t amphibs is more than most other forces are getting these days as well and will make us the most capable force regionally by a long way.
You would have to look pretty far north west to find something that would challenge that.
If more Supers (especially if it's a sizeable order), is it twin tubs all the way, or should there be some consideration for some E models?
The E can carry slightly more fuel internally I think. I don't know if it's a better or worse dog fighter. I'm trying to think what the E might bring to the table for RAAF, if anything.
rb
I have always supported planning for a future block obsolescence. Not a bad idea to buy 50-75 Super Hornets as quickly as possible and buying 25-50 Lightning IIs later... The idea of having 100 aircraft bought in sequence scares me, even though there might be some savings with spares. I have never liked putting all my eggs in one basket.
t68
Well-Known Member
The RAAF is investigating damage to an AP-3C Orion surveillance aircraft when a flare malfunctioned damaging the air frame.
Would this have gone off inside the canister to cause the damage or not deploying correctly away from the aircraft are they similar to firecrackers when they shoot out, how does it work?
ADM: RAAF investigating damaged AP-3C
Would this have gone off inside the canister to cause the damage or not deploying correctly away from the aircraft are they similar to firecrackers when they shoot out, how does it work?
ADM: RAAF investigating damaged AP-3C
Boeing: Boeing Wedgetail Aircraft Accepted Into Royal Australian Air Force Fleet
Okay, just what does this mean? Do they actually work now?
I remember that when the RAAF started using them for training earlier, they made it clear they were not "accepting" them, presumably for contractual reasons.
The article states they still won't be in final configuration until 2011, so is this some kind of preliminary capability milestone? Or is it just the next phase in training and preparation?
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
They have been officially accepted by the RAAF, so they are now operational. However, they still don't meet the contracted capability and wont until 2011 is how I read that.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
It means they've been accepted into service by RAAF. They are cleared to fly in Australia and undertake training and national peace-time taskings, ie: surveillance of Australian air space and exercise support for peace-time activities. They cannot be used in an operational role, without significant risk at present.
In addition, IOC has not yet been achieved. The major remaining obstacle is not with the radar, but with the ESM and electronic warfare self protection systems.
These I imagine are the focus of the work at the present time. Once the aircraft can operate in a combat airspace I imagine IOC will follow fairly quickly, with FOC acquired when all the aircraft are delivered and the capabilities brought up to that specified in the contract.
For now, we have 2x aircraft able to provide a good level of AEW&C capability for RAAF. In 2-3 years, we'll have the full fleet and presumably the full specified level of capability... Good news considering this whole project went very close to being terminated entirely...
I am sure this topic has been covered before in this thread (if so please point me to the appropriate pages) would like the know the general view of the JSF F35. With the continuious delays and downgrading of the capability's of the aircraft will it still be the right aircraft for Australia ? (if it ever was ?) The F22 was never and never will be on the cards, but how does the JSF compare to say the Eurofighter Typhoon ? Would such and aircraft be a better option ? Just asking as every time I look at the JSF programe there seems to be constant setbacks and delays etc
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Firstly, what downgrades of capability? I havent read anything about capability requirements being decreased.
F-22 didn't and does not meet the RAAF's requirements anyway, because it is single role. Typhoon is good, but F-35 should be much better.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
The typhoon is, in general terms, comparable to the F/A-18F BII's we just received. The F-35A is a far more capable platform than either the Super Hornet or the Typhoon, as a striker and a fighter. You have true low maintenance LO, the best sensor suite fielded on any fighter, the most advanced HUI, clean F-16 equivalent raw performance, internal weapons carriage, a HUGE fuel fraction and all in a package that should sell for well under $100mil a pop. NO platform choice will give you that sort of capability at any price.
If the F-35A fell over or proved too expensive then there is no realistic argument for acquiring any other platform other than the F/A-18F BII. No other 4.5th gen option really provides much more capability and the level of interoperability with the USN plus a secure development path. And of course, we already operate them.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #2,053
I would disagree somewhat on the Tiffy being generally comparable to the Shornet, at least at the current stage of development. The Shornet is a true multi-role fighter with 4.5 Gen avionics and AESA (at least in Block II and presumably also in upcoming Block III). The Tiffy AFAIK is not yet a real multi-role fighter (at least to the extent the SHornet is) apart from some RAF Tranche 2 airframes which had a crash modification programme done on them after production. Tranche 3 IIRC was to be where development was done to allow use of targeting pods, standoff and PGMs, basically the whole gamut of muntions normally expected in a multi-role fighter.
The Tiffy would I expect fair better in an air to air engagement, being faster and likely more maneuverable, but then again when the programme was launched, it was planned to deliver a fighter/interceptor aircraft. Once the AESA is settled on, then a Tiffy would likely dominate in an air to air engagement with an SHornet. But again, this is something which is still being developed, like the multi-role functionality of the Tiffy. This means that the programmes could still fall over, and/or be ordered in such small lots as to cause significant per-unit costs. Either of which could make the Tiffy an inappropriate alternate choice for the RAAF if the F-35 does fall over.
If the F-35 programme does fall over, or end up significantly more expensive and/or delayed, then additional orders of F-18 E/F/G Shornet/Growlers would be most appropriate. As Ozzy pointed out the SHornet is already in/entering RAAF service, is broadly similar to the 'Classic' HUG Bugs, and meets current service needs while also having a spiral development future.
From a RAAF perspective, I would be curious to find out what sort of break points or demarcations would be used to trigger a review and/or change in decision between ordering more/all SHornets or keeping the current plan.
-Cheers
The US Senate may disagree with you on that first point !
Secondly as I stated in my original post the F22 is not in the mix !
I would appreciate answers to my questions, rather than people getting their armour out of place and trying to shoot me down ! Pathetic reference's to articles back in 2008 do not cut it !
So once again, are we too deep in the JSF program to opt out and get something that will still fill the role or are we to financally commited to the JSF that we have no other choice but to stick with it and make the usual political statement that the JSF is the Bee's Knee's and will defend us to the death ? I understand that there are much more qualified people on here than me, but it is a pretty basic question, it maybe an operational question, but frankly it comes down to politics and point scoring. So lets talk from a purely performance point of view. Which is the best current choice for Australia ?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #2,055
If we are to have an RAAF POV discussing alternatives to the F-35, rather then even get into debating performances of different aircrafts, perhaps it would be a good idea to define what the RAAF wants/needs and how it would be employed, hmm? The focus on aircraft performance, which people in some Oz defence "think tanks" using the definition very loosely, have, manages to completely to ignore the what and how equipment would be employed.
As for the F-35 capability downgrades... What specifically are you referring to? The F-35's currently planned for RAAF service might, or perhaps might not, be as capable as those intended for USAF service. We do not know, such information, if it is even available, is not in the public domain. What would be better questions (in terms of aircraft performance) is whether or not the F-35A's planned for RAAF service will have the capabilities that the RAAF & ADF want and need? On a related track, what alternatives are there if one were to want something with the capabilities intended for the F-35?
Even if the LO features of the non-US F-35's are not to the same level as US LO features, it should still be something like an order of magnitude greater than the RCS reductions available in the SHornet, Typhoon, Rafale, etc. Now if the intent was to deliver a non-LO F-35, at the prices a LO F-35 would cost, then there would certainly be reason for complaint. Otherwise, the concern for the F-35 capabilities does not seem sensible to me.
-Cheers
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The best choice is the F-35A. It is the best all-round performer available in the next few years and is least likely to reach obsolescence any time soon out of the currently available fighters.
The next most acceptable is the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II and any potential follow-on blocks. (It is possible that an F/A-18IN chosen for the Indian MMRCA program and equipped with new "pits", upgraded engines and avionics systems may be designated as a Block III).
Any other fighter currently available is a waste of time and money as far as RAAF is concerned and offers nothing to Australia that these two types between them do not.
Our level of threat will be very well addressed by a fleet predominantly comprising either of these aircraft, with my stated preference for a bulk Super Hornet fleet, supported by a smaller F-35 fleet, purely for cost reasons alone.
If USN can buy 124x Super Hornets for near $40m a piece in 2010 dollars, then Australia should be able too as well. No matter how cheap the JSF, this cost will not be beaten and a significant amount of "sunk" cost in training capabilities, programs and technical support assets and industryy has already been invested in for the existing planned Super Hornet force. An expansion by a further 2x squadrons plus the necessary accompanying increase in support and training capabilities for a larger force, is going to be MUCH cheaper for the Super Hornet (in additional expenditure at this point) than the JSF.
However RAAF and Government are very keen to provide an all JSF force, so it is most likely that will be the chosen path. Just as it has been for nearly 10 years now....
we seem to be getting the same,
AIRSHOW-UPDATE 1-Pentagon F-35 chief blasts Boeing comments | Reuters
Brigadier Gen. David Heinz, program executive officer for the F-35, said Boeing was free to market its F-15 "Silent Eagle" plane, but rejected a claim by Boeing executives that Washington was selling a "dumbed down" version of the F-35 to international partners.
"I state categorically that I am not doing a different variant of aircraft for my international partners today,"
t68
Well-Known Member
If Australia where to go down the mixed fleet route for the RAAF supporting both Super Hornet and F35 JSF, would F35B be more appropriate not looking at exclusively putting them on the LHD but a more flexible airframe for use in the pacific or elsewhere not have a runway to takeoff and land, IE if they could use an existing large concrete area truck parking area or a large field to stage out of. Not sure how the F35B would go on an unprepared field for the engine FOD (foreign object damage).
Would the extra flexibility for the RAAF be worth the extra dollars this would incur?
If the F35B is capably of use these other areas would a fleet of 75 SH and 40 F35B be more appropriate buy for the RAAF?
Would the extra flexibility for the RAAF be worth the extra dollars this would incur?
If the F35B is capably of use these other areas would a fleet of 75 SH and 40 F35B be more appropriate buy for the RAAF?
t68
Well-Known Member
You get the range squared away with SH, looking at F35B in light of options when there is no infrastructure for the likes of SH or F35A with it VTOL capabilty, not necessary in continental Australia IE pacific islands, plus you have AAR for F35B.