F-35 Fantasy or Fake F-35 Discussions Debunked

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
LM Has responded:

Lockheed Martin has not asked Aviation Week to take disciplinary action against Bill Sweetman nor have we asked that he be removed from reporting on the F-35 program or any other Lockheed Martin program. In fact on April 27 Bill and other members of the Aviation Week staff visited Lockheed Martin facilities in Fort Worth for briefings on the F-35 program. We have a longstanding professional relationship with the entire Aviation Week editorial staff, including Bill Sweetman, and we continue to work openly with them on all programs, including F-35.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Well, I don't know what actually happened, but the conspiracy theorists out there will probably insinuate that LM caused this.

What I hinted at earlier when I wrote "But I had wondered if something like this would happen" was that I couldn't see how Bill's attack journalism matched the editorial line of AvWeek and the Ares blog. Bill writings are much more professional and measured in DTI, and the blog format is different and should have more slack.

However, hammering away with rehash upon rehash of the same material plus that some of the posters on the blog used it as a clearing-house for innuendo (by trying to associate Bill with their analysis), is an untenable position for the editorial collective of such a publication.

So my perception is that it is an internal clamp down.

But Bill Sweetman will probably reveal the story at some point in the future...

Oh, and attack journalism isn't meant as bad thing per se.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed"]Unsafe at Any Speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ca/Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg/130px-Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/c/ca/Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg/130px-Unsafeatanyspeedcover.jpg[/ame]
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
update:

[...]

The following week, while Sweetman and his colleagues prepped for a trip Lockheed’s plant in Ft. Worth, Texas, he wrote on his Facebook page:

“Gentlemen, your target for tonight is Fort Worth. Flacks are predicted to be numerous and persistent on the run-in and over the target, and bullshit is expected to be dense throughout the mission. Synchronize watches and good luck.”

Shortly thereafter, Sweetman was asked to stop covering the JSF.

UPDATE: “Aviation Week is committed to providing objective aerospace and defense journalism based on independent and balanced coverage. Following comments posted on his personal Facebook page, the editorial team has decided that Bill Sweetman will not be covering the F-35 program for a period of time,” magazine spokesman Joe D’Andrea e-mails Danger Room. “We will continue to hold our journalists to the highest standards of editorial integrity to best serve the aersopace and defense community.”

Read More Aviation Week Grounds Top Critic of Gajillion-Dollar Jet (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com

Aviation Week Grounds Top Critic of Gajillion-Dollar Jet (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
bills been nobbled, i smiled with the news, i hope kopp and elp can pick up the slack :coffee
you are joking I hope?

either way they have both painted themselves into a corner through their own idealogical rantings, so they're never going to change their positions even if it were to be painted in black and white and every professional tried to explain the facts of life.

sweetman might have shot himself through a lack of control, but at least he has some competency compared to the other 2.

kopp and elp are just tailgaters - and both have zero credibility within the community that counts.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
you are joking I hope?

either way they have both painted themselves into a corner through their own idealogical rantings, so they're never going to change their positions even if it were to be painted in black and white and every professional tried to explain the facts of life.

sweetman might have shot himself through a lack of control, but at least he has some competency compared to the other 2.

kopp and elp are just tailgaters - and both have zero credibility within the community that counts.
Just wanted to point out that I do sometimes enjoy reading analysis pieces written/released by Kopp & Co.

Admittedly I have to be in the right mood, and I have a questionable sense of humor, but I find the submissions humorous. If the submissions were not copyrighted and so long, I would tempted to submit some as entries of "Humor in Uniform."

Incidentally, I have taken a similar POV on some of the Aussie aviation blogs where people have been arguing the merits of certain features (or lack thereof) while wholely ignoring (or perhaps ignorant of) the actual relevance of the features which they felt so important.

-Cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Just wanted to point out that I do sometimes enjoy reading analysis pieces written/released by Kopp & Co.

Admittedly I have to be in the right mood, and I have a questionable sense of humor, but I find the submissions humorous.
I can recognize this. :D

If the submissions were not copyrighted and so long, I would tempted to submit some as entries of "Humor in Uniform."
Yes, the copyrighting is interesting. If their site perchance went offline a couple of years from now, no one could could post/publish their merits without infringing upon it... Pure coincidence? ;)
 

jack412

Active Member
you are joking I hope?.
just a little bit
:eek:nfloorl::dbanana


Yes, the copyrighting is interesting. If their site perchance went offline a couple of years from now, no one could could post/publish their merits without infringing upon it... Pure coincidence? ;)
it would be nice if someone saved the pages to a russian site, where copyright isnt an issue
it would be a shame to loose this valuable resource of humour for the next generation
 

jack412

Active Member
i hope it didnt come out your nose, i hate it when it does that, much worse that wiping it off the puter screen
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Thursday 20 May 2010

The Labour party (PvdA) has dropped its support for the Joint Strike Fighter jet project and will not support Dutch involvement in the test phase of the project, MP Angelien Eijsink said during a parliamentary debate on the JSF on Thursday.

Labour supported the purchase of one test jet while part of the coalition last year but says delays, uncertainty over the price and the noise factor make it irresponsible to continue, news agency ANP reports.

Dropping out of the trials will still cost the taxpayer €20m, defence minister Eimert van Middelkoop said, adding that this figure could alter.

Delay

Last year's cabinet disagreement over the JSF led to the decision to buy one test plane and take a decision on a second after the next election.

Labour's support is crucial to the project - without it there is no parliamentary majority in favour.
DutchNews.nl - Labour drops support for Joint Strike Fighter jet

Seems the Dutch want more contracts.... :rolleyes:
 

bonehead

New Member
no they cant afford it anymore, UK, Norway,Denmark will also be reviewing the project. the plane has more than doubled in costs and defence budgets in europe are being cut currently and there is no urgent need of a pkane like this at the moment, Uk is already looking at extending the harriers as part of the SDR. and with a 5th gen version of the rafale coming on line its looking better option for the RN.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
no they cant afford it anymore, UK, Norway,Denmark will also be reviewing the project. the plane has more than doubled in costs and defence budgets in europe are being cut currently and there is no urgent need of a pkane like this at the moment, Uk is already looking at extending the harriers as part of the SDR. and with a 5th gen version of the rafale coming on line its looking better option for the RN.
Uhm. I haven't heard anything on that the JSF is being reviewed in DK, Norway; UK. As for the Dutch, no decision has been made on any review.
 

Toptob

Active Member
As for the Dutch, no decision has been made on any review.
It's going to be difficult though. There are a lot of people against the thing and with the fall of the cabinet it is going to be difficult to form a government that will agree on the purchase. It's well known that politicians dont look ahead, and buying the F-35 is looking ahead.

I'm afraid that the long term strategical and financial ramifications for both the country and its industry's will be in jeopardy when the JSF program will be dropped. Whether the initial choice for the program was the right one for the Netherlands is irrelevant. The investment has been made, both in financial and political terms, so the best thing would be to stick with our guts to retain a well equipped airforce.

But people are still campaining against our participation in the JSF program. Saying it is too expensive and the aircraft will not be as good as the air force expects. It will be louder, more expensive then promised and all in all a bad idea. These people in my mind are idiots. I myself am orientated towards the left in politics, I think what Marx had to say was pretty smart in a lot of ways. But these left wing enviromentalist pussy's are not worth my vote if they cannot find the insight that what they're saying is flat wrong.

If I can find the truth about the thing with open source sources then a political party with analysts and stuff should also be able to. The title of this topic is a bit far fetched, but might come through in the Netherlands.
 

bonehead

New Member
the plane has come at the wrong time during a world melt down, Denmark has defered replacement its f16 for another 5 years, and the US are or have been trying to get them to take the f18, as a stop gap like they have with australia, the uk new goverment has a clear view on defence and its spending until the defict has been reduced which may defer purchasing f35 or not at all and looking for a more cost effective option, the french are very keen on offering the rafale and as they now are intending to provied a 5th gen version.

the USN. and airforce also have already revised numbers down and the project managers have again extended the production start dates and costs again have over run couuntries only have so much money to spend and this plane is already pricing its self out of the market unless someting happens to slow the costs or even stop then going up further, remember the french are also building a new carrier along the same lines as the UK two new carriers and commonality between the two would offer more advantages then going for f35 and its costs, buying them is one thing but the cost of flying them is another

as the thread says is it doomed well not yet but getting that way
 

Toptob

Active Member
A lot of assumptions Bonehead, there's two right here:

the french are very keen on offering the rafale and as they now are intending to provied a 5th gen version.
Where are they offering it as an competitor to the F-35? No one in Europe is going to buy the Rafale, that ship has sailed and the non-european partners will not replace their current plans with the Rafale.
Furthermore the Rafale is not and will never be a 5th generation aircraft. I find these classifications meaningless, but if there was a requirement it would be VLO features which would mean that the entire airframe would have to be changed.

the french are also building a new carrier along the same lines as the UK two new carriers and commonality between the two would offer more advantages then going for f35 and its costs
Those are two different things. Like with the Eurofighter program the French made a split because they had other requirements for their new carrier. The Brits are not interested in CATOBAR and dont want a nuclear powered carrier.

These are would be's and would likes. Not much more.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
The price tag per F-35 is now $92.4 Million. You probably can get around 3 to 4 quality F-16C/D 52+ in that amount.

DEFENCE NEWS said:

Pentagon: Total F-35 Price Tag Could Reach $382 Billion
DEFENCE NEWS
By JOHN T. BENNETT
1 Jun 2010
Pentagon: Total F-35 Price Tag Could Reach $382 Billion - Defense News

Senior Pentagon officials on June 1 announced the F-35 fighter and five other major weapon systems have surpassed a legal cost threshold, while also criticizing the review process that triggers the "Nunn-McCurdy breaches."


The Defense Department told lawmakers the F-35 fighter program could cost as much as $382.4 billion, with each Lightning II model coming with a $92.4 million price tag, according to DoD budget documents.


Those cost estimates assume the program continues down the current path, which officials told reporters they are working to avoid. One senior Pentagon official – who declined to point to a specific cost target - said efforts already are under way to move the overall cost of the F-35 program "as close as possible" back toward substantially smaller estimates crafted in 2002.


The Defense Department sent the new estimates to Congress after determining the program had breached the so-called Nunn-McCurdy statute, which requires the Pentagon to notify Congress when major defense programs experience substantial cost growth.


The $92.4 million per-model estimate is what defense officials refer to as a "cradle-to-grave" projection, meaning spanning each fighter jet's entire life, the senior official said.


The Pentagon restructured the F-35 program just several months ago after internal DoD cost estimates showed the tri-service, international fighter initiative's price tag had grown more than expected – and more than the joint program office claimed. This formal congressional notification, the senior official said, is merely a reflection of the same growth – "the paperwork has caught up to that."


Why the bigger price tag? There are several primary drivers. One is the Navy several years ago reduced the number of F-35s it will buy. A second is a more difficult development process, which required additional years – and thus, became more expensive. The senior official said the program "will continue to struggle" with keeping the development phase on track, in part because the technology on the short take-off and landing variant is so complicated.


A DoD summary of the F-35 breach calls higher than projected "contractor labor and overhead rates and fees" the "single largest contributor to cost growth."


The senior official said the new F-35 program management has been ordered to pare these costs because "I do not think that the department should have to incur those costs."


As for the projected $382.4 billion overall price of the program, the senior official said the hope is "the taxpayers never have to pay that bill."
Meanwhile, a senior Lockheed official said the company was very pleased with the results of the recent restructuring and reiterated the company's stance that it does not expect the program to cost anywhere near the Pentagon's $382 billion estimate.


"I cannot foresee any scenario where those numbers become a reality," the official said.


Instead, the official said he expects the next batch of 32 production jets, known as "low-rate initial production lot 4," to cost more than 20 percent less than that projection. The previous batch of production aircraft also cost about 20 percent below the Pentagon's per-jet projections.
Lockheed officials have said previous Pentagon F-35 estimates have relied too heavily on data from older fighter programs, such as the F-22 Raptor and F/A-18EF Super Hornet.


Also breaching the cost growth threshold was the Navy's truncated DDG 1000 destroyer program. Costs grew from $20 billion to just over $22 billion, DoD said. The senior official pegged this growth to the Navy opting to buy three instead of 10, which drives up unit costs.


As part of the Nunn-McCurdy process, DoD officials have ordered the destroyer program to strike the "Volume Searching Radar hardware from the ship baseline design … in order to reduce cost for the program," according to a department fact sheet. The Navy has been ordered to shift the program's initial operating capability date back one year, to 2016, and alter testing and evaluation requirements.


The Air Force-led Wideband Gapfiller satellite program also experienced a breach, the result of a break in production (between satellites 6 and 7), and the subsequent production re-start costs when the service opted to build two additional WGS orbiters (satellites 7 and 8). The cost grew from around $3 billion to just over $3.5 billion. The officials said Pentagon officials are mulling future satellite communications needs, leaving open the door to buying additional WGS satellites.


The Army's Apache Block III program also made the list of over-budget programs. The initial intent was to overhaul 634 existing helicopters, but 56 "new build" birds were tacked on to meet war demands. The revamped helos saw cost growth of $9.9 billion to $12 billion; the new aircraft costs went from $2 billion in 2006 to $2.3 billion. The department has split the "AB3" program into two parts – one focused on the new helicopters and another for the upgrades ones – which has resulted in "a more conservative set of estimating assumptions." Both are slated for a

milestone C review this summer.


Another Army program made the list: the Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures/Common Missile Warning System, designed to take out infrared homing surface-to-air missile attacks on helicopters. The ATIC effort's costs grew from $900 million in 2003 to $1 billion; the CMWs portion's estimated price swelled from $3.1 billion in 2003 to $3.5 billion. The causes were "technological immaturity and unrealistic performance expectations," according to a DoD fact sheet.


Further, the Navy's Remote Minehunting System breached the cost growth threshold primarily because of "the result of lower than planned procurement quantities, unrealistic estimating, and failure to adequately address reliability issues," according to DoD. Costs grew from $1.2 billion in 2006 to $1.4 billion.


Each of the six programs avoided termination because Pentagon acquisition executive Ashton Carter deemed each essential to U.S. national security, which is required by the Nunn-McCurdy statute.
But is the Nunn-McCurdy process worth it? The senior official said the Pentagon is working on cost estimates of how much the Pentagon puts into the Nunn-McCurdy process. Some DoD brass wonder "whether the Nunn-McCurdy process is in Nunn-McCurdy," the senior official quipped.
Another DoD official said that estimation should be completed in several weeks.


The senior official said Pentagon leaders want to use the new Performance Assessments and Root Cause Analysis (PARCA) office to perform a similar function. PARCA has established by 2009 defense acquisition reform legislation, but Congress allowed the Pentagon to craft its charter.


In December, Carter signed a memo outlining how PARCA would work.
Its members would spring into action upon request by the defense secretary, DoD acquisition chief, a service secretary or a DoD agency director, according to the Dec. 9 memorandum.
The group would perform one of two kinds of analyses on major acquisition programs: * A performance assessment, which would "evaluate the cost, schedule, and performance of the program, relative to current metrics, performance requirements, and baseline parameters," the memo said. "The assessments shall determine the extent to which the level of program cost, schedule, and performance relative to established metrics is likely to result in the timely delivery of a level of capability to the war fighter."


* A root-cause analysis, which would examine the "underlying causes for shortcomings in cost, schedule and performance." It would also determine whether program shortcomings were due in part to "unrealistic performance expectations; unrealistic cost and schedule plans; immature technologies; and excessive manufacturing or integration risk," the memo said.


Both kinds of analyses would look at whether problems were caused by "unanticipated design, engineering, manufacturing, or integration issues arising during program performance; changes in procurement quantities; inadequate program funding or funding instability; [or] poor performance by government or contractor personnel responsible for program management," the memo said.


One defense analyst said the re-certification of the F-35 program was a done deal, showing the Nunn McCurdy process might not be working.
"Certification of F-35 is no big surprise because three of the defense department's four military services are counting on getting it, and there is no evidence of major design or engineering problems," Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute wrote in a June 1 blog post. "But doesn't it make you wonder what the point of these costly reviews are, when even programs the department has targeted for termination are certified as complying with Nunn-McCurdy criteria for continuance?"  John Reed and Kate Brannen contributed to this report.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The price tag per F-35 is now $92.4 Million. You probably can get around 3 to 4 quality F-16C/D 52+ in that amount.
No you couldn't. A Block 52+ F-16 is costing around $50m a pop at the present time.

And that $92.4m price tag is the "cradle to the grave" pricetag, ie: the acquisition cost, plus the cost to support it for a lifetime of 30 years. So even if you could buy 3-4 new-build F-16's for $92m, (which you can't) you certainly couldn't operate them for 30 years for this amount....
 
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