Urban Combat Specialized Corps

chihuahuense87

New Member
Good night, As we know, most armies beside the three common branches airforce, land army and navy, have some specialized corps, like the marine infantry, mountain brigades and airborne troops.

my question is, it exists an corp in any army specialized in urban combat, and if it not, do you think is a viable option. I know that modern armies train soldiers in this kind of combat, but i dont know if there is any specialized corp.

i bring this question to the table, because i live in mexico, a country with shootouts every day, regular soldiers fight with efficiency the narco guerrillas, the problem comes next, the army even if its doing a good job, its often critized by politicians, the same happens in iraq and in other warzones, the most common accident here in mexico is the killing of civilians in checkpoints, politicians argue about the lack of touch of the military and ask the police to do their job, but police is ill equiped and ill trained, they die like pigs in the shootouts.

and i tought well maybe a urban combat corp will be the solution, specially trained to wage war in urban enviroments, with special equipment (vehicles and weapons) just like the marines or the airborne, and also trained in the management of civilians and other stressful situations that most soldiers cant manage.

its just and idea, but i think it will improve army operations in urban enviroments avoiding unecessary casualties and civilian deaths like: iraq, lebanon, chechnya and mexico now a days.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It wouldn't just be urban combat. From what you describe it would mean COIN. Conventional urban combat doesn't involve many checkpoints, or much regard for civilian safety, as it usually takes place over a relatively short time period. Look at Fallujah, or the Assault on Grozny.
 

chihuahuense87

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It wouldn't just be urban combat. From what you describe it would mean COIN. Conventional urban combat doesn't involve many checkpoints, or much regard for civilian safety, as it usually takes place over a relatively short time period. Look at Fallujah, or the Assault on Grozny.
you are right, i was checking and you are absolutely right thanks for the answer
but part of mi question still stand, do you think is viable option or it already exist a corp specialized in urban combat, besides the regular army units trained in this kind of fight?
 

Feanor

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Staff member
As far as I know there are no existing urban combat specialists because it's considered to be a relatively minor part of combat. Instead MOUT training is done in practically all units.
 

chihuahuense87

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As far as I know there are no existing urban combat specialists because it's considered to be a relatively minor part of combat. Instead MOUT training is done in practically all units.
this is my first post and i think is good time to say nice forum you got here, Thanks for answering my question ;)
 

dragonfire

New Member
What probably could be the solution is the raising and training of a Paramilitary unit which is specialized in countering and neutralizing the narco-guerrillas, often an army which is usually used to defend and attack a nation's external enemies comes under criticism when used against internal enemies and when in contact with civilians, so a well trained and well equipped para military or specialized police unit/corp could be the solution. In India the Army is gradually moving out of the COIN and CT operations and other specialized paramilitary and Central Police Force corps are taking over the majority of the ops and it is becoming successful against insurgents in J&K, the North East separatists etc. These forces are generally trained by the Army and Special Force trainers so tht they are at par but since they are operating as a police force they become an arm of the Law and Order setup which helps in eradicating the problem from its roots and also helps put offenders behind bars. Intelligence gathering also plays a major role
 

OPSSG

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Staff member
...the most common accident here in mexico is the killing of civilians in checkpoints, politicians argue about the lack of touch of the military and ask the police to do their job, but police is ill equipped and ill trained, they die like pigs in the shootouts...
Killing of civilians by the police or the army in any cross fire is always lamentable (and somewhat unavoidable in a fire fight with civilians around). When you say that the Mexican police can't do their jobs at check points, then it indicates that the level of violence has over-matched the training, the equipping and the capability of Mexico's police. IMO, the manning of check points is a low value added task that most police forces in third world countries can be equipped and trained for. If your police are unable to do so may say more about the incompetence of Mexico's police than about the capability of your army.

I am of the view that using the army is a practical solution for Mexico but on a longer term basis, it is also a misuse of resources. What a number of countries have done is to raise para-military forces for policing. Amongst those countries with paramilitaries would include the India (which has many types of specialist police forces like the Central Reserve Police Force, that was in the news recently) and Italian Carabinieri (upon which the Iraqi police is modeled after). Even in countries where the police are not equipped and organised along para-military lines often have special response units (like the GSG9 of the German Federal Police). This is a choice that your country and government have to make for yourself.

my question is, it exists an corp in any army specialized in urban combat, and if it not, do you think is a viable option. I know that modern armies train soldiers in this kind of combat, but i dont know if there is any specialized corp.
Urban warfare is warfare in complex terrain, which to me means an army acting as a occupying or 'peacekeeping' force - to deal with armed and determined hostiles. When I talk about urban warfare, I do not mean misusing the army to perform the role of the police by virtue of police incompetence (which is a rule of law and law enforcement issue). IMO, this is the case in Mexico.

When talking about urban warfare, I mean an army sent abroad to fight your way into a foreign city and thereafter occupy it in the face of determined resistance. This could occur scenarios like the American army in Iraqi cities or it could in an 'armed peacekeeping' setting like the Australian army in East Timor. For more info read up on 'International Force for East Timor (INTERFET)' and 'United Nations Mission in East Timor (UNAMET)'.

i bring this question to the table, because i live in mexico, a country with shootouts every day, regular soldiers fight with efficiency the narco guerrillas, the problem comes next, the army even if its doing a good job, its often critized by politicians, the same happens in iraq and in other warzones,
I think the situation, as bad as it is in Mexico is not as bad as in Iraq or even East Timor in the 1999 to 2003 period (as the government in Mexico still exists and is broadly seen as legitimate).

Without foreign support by the US and other coalition troops, in the 2004 to 2008 period, the Iraqi government would have collapsed because of the level of violence. I've enclosed a video of US troops at Fort Dix, training to go to Iraq:

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ck2SqWLF9s&NR=1[/nomedia]


In the case of East Timor, there was no effective government at the point of independence and the Indonesians engaged in a scorched earth policy because the people of East Timor had voted for independence from Indonesia on 30 August 1999. The Indonesian army equipped armed militias and these armed militias presented a significant threat to UN personnel and forces deployed in East Timor. That is why the Australians deployed armoured personnel carriers to present an over-match to the Indonesian trained para-military forces out to wreak havoc. The ADF led coalition forces deployed also needed to imposed authority across all levels of a fractured society, making face-to-face contact with potential belligerents of both sides. There the Australians applied the following general approach:

• Saturation—secure a large area with sufficient force deployed in unit sectors.
• “Oil Spot”—systematically secure limited areas with a “clear-hold-build” approach.
• Safe Areas—secure concentrations of vulnerable population.

Further, in many armies there are special considerations when operating in a urban environment. This would include equipping and training troops to operate in such environments but it is within the core competency of that army. For infantry, the ability to work through walls in urban warfare can be important (this is an extreme scenario, where very strong resistance is expected and there are numerous IEDS set up by the enemy to cover all avenues of approach). In 2002, during the invasion of Nablus by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), they literally carved through a whole series of buildings to ensure that their troop movements were thus almost entirely camouflaged. Soldiers used none of the streets, roads, alleys and none of the external doors, but rather moved horizontally through party walls, and vertically through holes blasted in ceilings and floors. A commander of the Israeli Paratrooper Brigade describes his forces as acting:
"like a worm that eats its way forward, emerging at points and then disappearing. We were thus moving from the interior of homes to their exterior in a surprising manner and in places we were not expected, arriving from behind and hitting the enemy that awaited us behind a corner."​
Post-battle surveys later revealed that more than half of the buildings in the old city center of Nablus had routes forced through them, resulting in anywhere from one to eight openings in their walls, floors, or ceilings, which created several haphazard crossroutes.

The invasion of Nablus depicts what it means for the IDF to bend space to meeting their particular navigational needs to bring the fight to their enemy in the urban environment. Palestinian families, whose homes and walls were blown up to facilitate IDF troop movement were of course not very happy and were probably terrified by the ordeal.

and i thought well maybe a urban combat corp will be the solution, specially trained to wage war in urban environments, with special equipment (vehicles and weapons) just like the marines or the airborne, and also trained in the management of civilians and other stressful situations that most soldiers cant manage.
I am Singaporean and I would say that in our conscript army, training for urban warfare is a core training module that is required of most operational infantry units in Singapore. Equipping for urban warfare requires specialist things like ammo (like frangible ammo, especially if troops are protecting oil installations), tools (rifles with cameras to shoot round corners unexposed) and training (in relation to the use of less-lethal solutions, like LRADs, as part of various force protection measures). This could include the attachment of armour support, additional snipers (or what we call company sharpshooters for some of our infantry battalions) and other specialist troops like engineers (to blast holes through walls or disarm IEDs), dog teams (to seek out weapons caches) and so on to deal with various threats. Below is a video on some of our army tools and our new urban training environment (it's not a particularly good example but I wanted you to see the video, for what I mean as training in MOUT, as a core competency):

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqs2SBacwhA[/nomedia]
 
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chihuahuense87

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Thanks for the info, about the singaporean army :D and im opening a new post on mexico drug wars, i think i made a terrible mistake in mixing topics in this post, maybe i will reopen this anyway thanks
 

Chino

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Just some random thoughts:

There are specialized infantry like airborne, mountain, marine etc...

Yet, there aren't urban infantrym even though a great percentage of the earth is urbanized, and a lot of fighting took place in urban areas since WW2.

As several members have already mentioned, all infantry troops train in fighting in urban situations to a certain degree.

But I think you raised a good point because in most units, urban fighting is only one of the many things we train in. In Singapore for example, the average infantry unit is not in any way specialists when it comes to fighting in urban areas.

Our equipment and weaponry, as well as our training, hope to prepare us for all eventualities, but not really specializing in any.

For example, my unit did a lot of training in house-to-house fighting. But they were houses you might find in rural sub-urban areas, not the high-rise residential or commercial buildings of a big city like Singapore.

...

Disregarding commandos and other SOF, the average infantry guy usually "learn as you earn" when it comes to urban fighting.

Even those troops already experienced in Iraq, would have to learn a lot of new lessons if for example, they return home to fight in New York City. All those tall buildings, glass, underground manholes, subways system etc, would be very new environment to average infantry types.

Equipment-wise, for example AFV, in most armies are also not directly designed for urban fighting. For example, the main gun of a T-72 or even an M1A1, cannot elevate to hit the top floors of a tall building. And the long canon makes the tank moving in most streets difficult. But without the heavy armour of MBT standard, most lighter AFV would be easy meat in the 360 degree threat of a urban battleground. The IDF, for example, have heavy IFV made with MBT chassis and have pillbox-like turrets with all-round visibility.

There are specialized tanks like the M60CEV in SAF that has a short barrel and a dozer blade. But these are usually few and far between. In WW2 there are tanks that have large calibre canon with short stubby barrels for demolishing buildings.

In the past decades, it is more sexy to think in Cold War terms where huge number of fast-moving MBT charge through open "tank country" in tank vs tank engagements. These kinds of fighting did take place during the Middle East Wars, Indo-Pakistan wars, a few days of Desert Storm etc...

But a great part of the fighting in the past decades - including WW2 - took place in urban areas. Chechnya and Lebanon are two great modern examples. These weren't mere counter-insurgencies but all out wars.

I don't know about other armies but the IDF seemed to have given urban fighting a bit more thought in terms of AFV design. Even the use of air assets would have to be rethink because as Black Hawk Down show, a cheap RPG can bring down approaching helicopters.

Indirect long range fire support would also be interesting to learn how they can be used in a modern metropolis. Can you use 155mm arty to hit area targets in say, New York City? Dunno, probably not?

The flamethrower might make a comeback, for example.

Use of mines would have to be very ingenious. How do you defend/assault a built-up area, a 70-storey hotel building with 300 rooms?

If you read books about fighting in Stalingrad, you can get a good idea of the horror, tactics etc.
 

Feanor

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I would imagine, where possible, it would be easier to demolish the city rather then assault it.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I would imagine, where possible, it would be easier to demolish the city rather then assault it.
Or at the very least demolish individual buildings held by enemy soldiers, unless there are non-combatants in the way.

Something like the Demolition guns on previous generation Engineer Tanks would be ideal for that sort of thing in urban areas.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Demolishing a high rise might create problems.:D
Well if you're not worried about collateral damage, not really. And when I mean demolish I don't necessarily mean literally demolish, I just mean deliver overwhelming amounts of heavy firepower. The effect is usually complete destruction. In principle nothing stops one from razing the city to the ground using heavy arty and high-altitude bombing.
 

chihuahuense87

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Demolishing a high rise might create problems.:D
yeah, imagine a hipotetic scenario a battle in the center of new york, american soldierts trying to recapture the building from i dont know russian hands, demolishing an sky crapper like the waldorf astoria full of enemy soldiers is going to be a battle by itself, the building is big and bulky, you cant use heavy ordenance like 1000 lb bombs or something like it, because you will cause heavy colateral damage to your own people or friendly troops in the area. fighting in that scenario might need specialized urban combat to reach victory
 

Kilo 2-3

New Member
yeah, imagine a hipotetic scenario a battle in the center of new york, american soldierts trying to recapture the building from i dont know russian hands, demolishing an sky crapper like the waldorf astoria full of enemy soldiers is going to be a battle by itself, the building is big and bulky, you cant use heavy ordenance like 1000 lb bombs or something like it, because you will cause heavy colateral damage to your own people or friendly troops in the area. fighting in that scenario might need specialized urban combat to reach victory
The Russians probably wouldn't be in New York. There are numerous reasons (difficulty of crossing US-controlled waters to land and support an attack force, probability that a US-Russia war would go nuclear rather than involve and invasion of CONUS, etc.), so your scenario is not wholly relevant to this discussion.

The very nature of urban warfare involves collateral damage, and an infantry assault and its associated fire support can be highly destructive, even if it does not visit the massive devastation of say, a carpet bombing.

Modern military commanders have numerous options for dealing with entrenched enemies, and hostile formations in urban environments. One of the offshoots of the Afghanistan and Iraq and the fact that significant portions of this war have been fought in urban enviroments or in close proximity to civilians has been an increased military focus on precision weapon systems.

Now, the War on Terror was certainly not the only driving force behind such a shift, but it unquestionably has been a contributing factor.

As a consequence, commanders can now call upon EXCALIBUR guided artillery rounds, Predator/Reaper drone strikes with Hellfire missiles, guided TOW missiles, and JDAMs of varying sizes, including one variety filled with concrete which is filled with concrete rather than explosives. This allows the bomb to kinetically kill its targets, but minimizes the damage which a miss would incur(Air Weapons: Why Concrete Filled Bombs are Useful).

Riot agents such as CS and tear gas could also be used to drive military forces from their positions or incapacitate them long enough for troops or other weapons to be used.

While technology has not and never will replace the need for skilled, dedicated, and well-trained "boots on the ground," it gives commanders options for dealing with MOUT situations in a manner that is less costly to the lives of their troops.

By the way, are you sure you mean a "sky crapper?" Or do you mean a sky scraper? The two are well...very different things.
 

MadMike

New Member
Urban Police Actions

Good night, As we know, most armies beside the three common branches airforce, land army and navy, have some specialized corps, like the marine infantry, mountain brigades and airborne troops. question is, it exists an corp in any army specialized in urban combat, and if it not, do you think is a viable option.
I believe that, in an environment such as you describe, these matters require a police action over a military one. I would not recommend the use of military assets here. Instead, I would prefer training and equipping civilian police agencies, like S.W.A.T., to engage in specialized urban operations. Armies are equipped to search-&-destroy a city; not to preserve its infrastructure, nor to protect the civilian populace in a combat situation.. As far as military action is concerned, the upcoming Battle of Kandahar this summer should demonstrate how successfully the US military can operate in an urban environment. Obviously, the element of surprise will be impossibe to achieve here. Prior to their attack on Beirut in the '80s, for example, the Israelies gave up a certain amount of tactical momentum to allow noncombatants the opportunity to leave the city. That seems to be what the US is doing in Kandahar at the risk of allowing the Taliban combatants to reinforce their positions. We will see what happens. It would be awesome to be in the center of Kandahar right now. It's probably a little bit like the bar scene in "Star Wars" with spooks, crooks, soldiers-of-fortune, salesmen, shadey government-types and wannabe journalists all sharing "mocktails" in the same hotel bar. Ya gotta love it.
 
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Feanor

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In all honesty a professional military would not be dislodged with CS. Dazed, disoriented, disadvantaged, yes. Pushed back? Don't think so.
 

chihuahuense87

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The Russians probably wouldn't be in New York. There are numerous reasons (difficulty of crossing US-controlled waters to land and support an attack force, probability that a US-Russia war would go nuclear rather than involve and invasion of CONUS, etc.), so your scenario is not wholly relevant to this discussion.

By the way, are you sure you mean a "sky crapper?" Or do you mean a sky scraper? The two are well...very different things.

well first, the scenario of russian troops fighting in NY is just fiction used to prove a point, and you are right is not wholly relevant, but i think it proves it, i was adding some information to Chino post about causing heavy damage in urban enviroments and the need of specialized troops to fight in highly urbanized areas like new york, with high buildings, subway sistem, sewages etc.

collateral damage is unavoidable, but the less the better, a war is fought in many places not just the battlefield, you cant just blow the fucking city. a corp specialised in urban combat will reduce the colateral damage caused by an infantry assault and its associated fire support.

sure common army units have MOUT training, they can take the fight, they had been doing it in iraq and afghanistan,but think on this, what army unit will be best suited to wage war in a mountain setting a common army unit or specialized combat units like the alpini or the spanish mountain brigade, i think is the same in urban combat. a city is a completey new scenario, covering from small houses and stores to sky scrappers and complicated subway sistems. even with the use of smart ammunition and chemical agents like tear gas, it will take heavy casualties for the soldiers trying to dislodge a motivated, trained and well equiped enemy from a building as big as the waldorf.

i think beside the fiction and i might add stupid scenario i posted, we are in the same channel, im not general or military strategist nor i pretend to be, im just posting a thought, urban combat represents a special challenge, just like fighting in the mountains or landing on an enemy beach, amphibous warfare represented a big problem if i remember well the landings at gallipolli and tanga during WWI were a complete failure by the lack of adecuate equipment and proper landing tactics.

creating a specialized corp in urban warfare might help in increasing the fighting effectiveness of an army and thus reducing casualties in this kind of setting.

and about the sky crapper and the sky scrapper, it might be the same if you use a little bit of imagination, but im sorry finger mistake :D
 

Waylander

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Normally the standard light infantry should be trained in urban fighting as this and heavy woods are it's natural terrain to operate in. Usually these days most modern armies have the expertise for urban warfare but don't have the numbers of light infantry needed for even one high intensity fight in a big city against a decent enemy.

And the one's that have the numbers lack a number of force multipliers.
 

Kilo 2-3

New Member
Waylander's more or less hit the nail on the head here. Modern infantry units already train for MOUT and their leadership has established doctrines for going about doing it. However, fighting in urban situations is very time- and casualty-intensive, making it a costly and often untenable enterprise

While specialization has its benefits, overspecialization can be a bad thing. You end up with tremendous redundancies and you don't make effective use of your manpower and expertise when you end up go to war.

Yes, an "Urban Combat Specialized Corps" is on paper, a good idea. However, there's a very real possibility that millions of dollars and thousands of soldiers could be poured into the project, only for nothing to come of it. Granted there are plenty of military projects that end up never actually being used (nuclear weapons), but I don't know how accurate it is to draw a comparison between a weapon which is designed for deterrent and a large military force intended for a single, highly-specialized form of combat.

In my mind, its better to have more generally-trained infantry. Most modern armies simply don't have the manpower to create potentially useful, but also potentially redundant highly-specialized units like the UCSP.

In all honesty a professional military would not be dislodged with CS. Dazed, disoriented, disadvantaged, yes. Pushed back? Don't think so.
Feanor, just curious did you have the chance to go through the gas chamber during training? If you did, I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on the experience.

And you're right, I probably should have chosen my verbage a bit more carefully. "Pushed back" was bit...over-dramatic on my part.
 
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