The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes I think they are all good examples of ships that I had in mind. If we were to build from scratch we could go for a far more radical stealth profile like the Visbys. My preference would be the 57mm over 76mm and I am assuming CAMM will be lighter than Sea Wolf. But at c 95m/ 5000 mile range more than adequate for a "global corvette", particularly as they would probably spend most of there time in the Med/Gulf. And they clearly demonstrate you can fit a very capable armament on quite a small ship. Mind the 40 year old A69 design carried a very heavy armament (if not very effective) on an even smaller displacement.
Any 'global corvette' adopted by the RN would also spend much of its time in the Caribbean, the Atlantic (including South), & the Indian Ocean. The RN wouldn't want a ship that wasn't suitable for such deployments.

The radical stealth profile of the Visbys comes with costs, both financial & in ship design. For a vessel intended for the Baltic, they're probably worthwhile, but I'm not sure they would be for an oceanic ship.
 

1805

New Member
Any 'global corvette' adopted by the RN would also spend much of its time in the Caribbean, the Atlantic (including South), & the Indian Ocean. The RN wouldn't want a ship that wasn't suitable for such deployments.

The radical stealth profile of the Visbys comes with costs, both financial & in ship design. For a vessel intended for the Baltic, they're probably worthwhile, but I'm not sure they would be for an oceanic ship.
Maybe the Gulf is not that dissimilar to the Baltic, and along with the Indian Ocean is probably one of the hottest regions for the RN. Agreed the Atlantic is a tough enviroment but a 95m ship should be able to handle. This is slightly larger dimensions than a WW2 Loch. I would no see these as replacements for T26 but a very low cost addition,better suited for coastal waters.
 

citizen578

New Member
Maybe the Gulf is not that dissimilar to the Baltic, and along with the Indian Ocean is probably one of the hottest regions for the RN. Agreed the Atlantic is a tough enviroment but a 95m ship should be able to handle. This is slightly larger dimensions than a WW2 Loch. I would no see these as replacements for T26 but a very low cost addition,better suited for coastal waters.
You think the best part of £175M for a ship which is ill-suited to the UK's requirements is a good deal?

I would seriously NOT want to be on a Visby in a South Atlantic storm, nor would I want to be the logistics strategist banging his head against a table wondering how in the hell he's going to support this vessel to cross an ocean or two, then support it on ops.

Visbys are great little ships in the littoral, but completely the wrong option for a large blue-water navy like the RN.
 

1805

New Member
You think the best part of £175M for a ship which is ill-suited to the UK's requirements is a good deal?

I would seriously NOT want to be on a Visby in a South Atlantic storm, nor would I want to be the logistics strategist banging his head against a table wondering how in the hell he's going to support this vessel to cross an ocean or two, then support it on ops.

Visbys are great little ships in the littoral, but completely the wrong option for a large blue-water navy like the RN.
You really must read posts before you comment on them. I was making a passing reference about extreme Visby stealth features being applied to a much bigger design not the actual ship. Obviously a 600t FAC would not be very useful outside of coastal waters.
 
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citizen578

New Member
You really must read posts before you comment on them. I was talking about extreme Visby stealth features being applied to a much bigger design not the actual ship. Obviously a 600t FAC would not be very useful outside of coastal waters.
Is that not pretty obvious? Of course lessons learned from previous/current gen vessels would be incorporated wherever possible. Design Compromise.
The same as has been happening throughout the history of naval architecture. Forgive me for making the mistake of thinking you might be saying something of specific importance.
 

1805

New Member
Is that not pretty obvious? Of course lessons learned from previous/current gen vessels would be incorporated wherever possible. Design Compromise.
The same as has been happening throughout the history of naval architecture. Forgive me for making the mistake of thinking you might be saying something of specific importance.
Apology accepted......if that was one.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Maybe the Gulf is not that dissimilar to the Baltic, and along with the Indian Ocean is probably one of the hottest regions for the RN. Agreed the Atlantic is a tough enviroment but a 95m ship should be able to handle. This is slightly larger dimensions than a WW2 Loch. I would no see these as replacements for T26 but a very low cost addition,better suited for coastal waters.
It's not to do with the size, but the design.

The days when the RN could have local fleets permanently stationed in many different areas have long gone, & with them, the requirement for lots of coastal warships.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
It's not to do with the size, but the design.

The days when the RN could have local fleets permanently stationed in many different areas have long gone, & with them, the requirement for lots of coastal warships.
Yes.

It needs to be able to deploy with a task group, preferrably being able to maintain a normal "fleet" speed of say 18 knots. It needs to be able to resupply at sea and it needs to have the endurence to self deploy by itself to a patrol zone by itself when needed. Such as the Carribean or Gulf.

Remember that one of the roles of these ships will be as an MCM. However unlike the Hunts and Sandowns, these will be "expeditionary" MCM ships, rather then "local" MCM ships.

Just like the primary role of the RN has changed from ASW in the north atlantic to expeditionary force around the world along with maintaining standing patrol tasks.
 

1805

New Member
Yes.

It needs to be able to deploy with a task group, preferrably being able to maintain a normal "fleet" speed of say 18 knots. It needs to be able to resupply at sea and it needs to have the endurence to self deploy by itself to a patrol zone by itself when needed. Such as the Carribean or Gulf.

Remember that one of the roles of these ships will be as an MCM. However unlike the Hunts and Sandowns, these will be "expeditionary" MCM ships, rather then "local" MCM ships.

Just like the primary role of the RN has changed from ASW in the north atlantic to expeditionary force around the world along with maintaining standing patrol tasks.
Agreed but i don't see why this can't be achieved in a ship of that size (ie 95m/5000 mile range 25-30 knot). Some of the ships mentioned by Systems Adict , with little modification would be very sound designs.

BTW excellent news that the RN will be helping with the current flight restrictions, looks like many thousands of people should hopefully have a positive experience of the RN first hand which can only help with address the UKs sea blindness.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Agreed but i don't see why this can't be achieved in a ship of that size (ie 95m/5000 mile range 25-30 knot). Some of the ships mentioned by Systems Adict , with little modification would be very sound designs.
Lots of modification. Some don't have flight decks, all are heavily armed, none have flex decks for carrying MCM modules.

Best to start with a clean sheet design.

BTW excellent news that the RN will be helping with the current flight restrictions, looks like many thousands of people should hopefully have a positive experience of the RN first hand which can only help with address the UKs sea blindness.
Yes, should help.
 

Hambo

New Member
Election prospects for the RN. With 18 days of boredom interupted by some defence talk left, I just wonder what impact the election will have for the RN, particularly if we get the dreaded hung parliament and associated trading that will go with it.

Ainsworth yesterday was getting stuck into the Lib Dems Trident replacement plans which are laughable. They will keep trident till 2020 then replace it with something cheaper. When does the decision on the replacements for vanguard have to be made? If its deferred for one maybe two hung parliaments, how will that effect the drumbeat, and how would the industry keep going?

As we know there isnt really a alternative, something cheaper means cruise missiles or an even more expensive bomber force, cruise missiles will be vulnerable to integrated air defence networks and are short legged, so the Libs are pulling off a con trick, they want the deterrent gone. Thats not a problem until now when they might actually become kingmakers. How desperate would labour be to remain in power? could the deterrent be the dowry of the marriage? or would electoral reform be higher up on the lib dem demands?

So if the lib dems scrap an SSBN based deterrent, would they order more SSN's to keep the industry alive? I doubt it, SSN's are a bit too nasty for the fence sitters.

So if labour win we get, 2 CV, some form of carrier airpower, 7(8) astutes, 4 SSBN for a just about viable indutstry, 18-23 escorts and an impressive amphib fleet and a long stint in afghanistan.

The tories want trident so I assume a viable industry means SSN'S and SSBNs, There is mixed messages on CV but I assume they are safe from what Fox says, they suggest the rest of the savings will come from MOD waste, and I assume we will see a few army regiments reformed to keep the old boy networks alive, similar escort numbers an a long stint in afghanistan.

Im not really sure how the Lib Dems would leave the armed forces of the UK. But I suspect more insular, smaller and less able to operate independently??

So 2 out of 3 want a nuclear deterrent, albeit the core support and ethos of one of them still has CND leanings, the 3rd wants rid of it but is spinning the claim that there is no need to make a decision now. I can guarantee the "100 billion" cost that they claim the Trident replacement will cost, will not be spent elsewhere on defence.

Its a shame that the defence policies of all the parties wont be scrutinised closely by the wider electorate, namely cos the wider electorate isnt interested enough in enough numbers to make a difference.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Election prospects for the RN. With 18 days of boredom interupted by some defence talk left, I just wonder what impact the election will have for the RN, particularly if we get the dreaded hung parliament and associated trading that will go with it.

Ainsworth yesterday was getting stuck into the Lib Dems Trident replacement plans which are laughable. They will keep trident till 2020 then replace it with something cheaper. When does the decision on the replacements for vanguard have to be made? If its deferred for one maybe two hung parliaments, how will that effect the drumbeat, and how would the industry keep going?

As we know there isnt really a alternative, something cheaper means cruise missiles or an even more expensive bomber force, cruise missiles will be vulnerable to integrated air defence networks and are short legged, so the Libs are pulling off a con trick, they want the deterrent gone. Thats not a problem until now when they might actually become kingmakers. How desperate would labour be to remain in power? could the deterrent be the dowry of the marriage? or would electoral reform be higher up on the lib dem demands?

So if the lib dems scrap an SSBN based deterrent, would they order more SSN's to keep the industry alive? I doubt it, SSN's are a bit too nasty for the fence sitters.

So if labour win we get, 2 CV, some form of carrier airpower, 7(8) astutes, 4 SSBN for a just about viable indutstry, 18-23 escorts and an impressive amphib fleet and a long stint in afghanistan.

The tories want trident so I assume a viable industry means SSN'S and SSBNs, There is mixed messages on CV but I assume they are safe from what Fox says, they suggest the rest of the savings will come from MOD waste, and I assume we will see a few army regiments reformed to keep the old boy networks alive, similar escort numbers an a long stint in afghanistan.

Im not really sure how the Lib Dems would leave the armed forces of the UK. But I suspect more insular, smaller and less able to operate independently??

So 2 out of 3 want a nuclear deterrent, albeit the core support and ethos of one of them still has CND leanings, the 3rd wants rid of it but is spinning the claim that there is no need to make a decision now. I can guarantee the "100 billion" cost that they claim the Trident replacement will cost, will not be spent elsewhere on defence.

Its a shame that the defence policies of all the parties wont be scrutinised closely by the wider electorate, namely cos the wider electorate isnt interested enough in enough numbers to make a difference.
The critical issue is money, unfortunately Britain has too many capital projects coming together at the same time. CV's are not the issue, it's the spiralling costs and uncertainty of the F35B and other critical support assets that scares the number crunches (MASC, MARS, FSC, F35B), plus a v-expensive future SSBN. I'm convinced the UK will end up with at least one QE Carrier complete with a credible number of aircraft. A second remains a ?, simply because the UK can't afford to equip, escort and keep at sea two fully equipped strike carriers. The second will be either cancelled, end up as a glorified Commando/UCAV platform, held in reserve or sold off.

Whilst we bemoan a shrinking surface fleet you have to remember that the UK invests more in ISTAR than any other country in Europe (Predator, Reaper, Watchkeeper, Sentinel, Rivetjoint, GCHQ etc.), this will continue and I perceive the next SDR will demand even more money be spent funding such programmes at the expense of others. Big and heavy spear point assets will continue to be sacrificed to fund investment in ISTAR simply because good intelligence is worth a brigade of troops on the ground and can be used to mitigate the terrorist threat at home or abroad.

To be utterly frank in an age of asymmetrical warfare the average civvy will scratch his/her head as to why the UK needs the largest fleet of Typhoons (assuming Tranche 3) and the largest fleet of F35B's in Europe, particularly when the poor bloody infantry are perceived to be doing most of the fighting these days.

I'm convinced the UK can build a stretched ASTUTE capable of carrying a nuclear weapon system capable of deterring most rouge states. It may not be up there with Trident, but then again the Soviet Empire is long gone, Iran / NK can't strike the UK (as yet) and China ain't adopting an overtly aggressive and expansionist foreign policy. The real threat is some nutter detonating a N-Bomb in a major city, a 50bn nuclear deterrent is not going to prevent that happening.

The Lib-Dems are Euro obsessed, they would be happy if we kept one QE Class Carrier and tied its availability to that of our European allies (French and Italians). Thus saving jobs at the ship yards, boosting the UK's European standing, maintaining the ability to project and protect our ARG and save money. Work assigned to the PW could be diverted to FSC, or used to build a cheaper flat-top to replace Ocean
 
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windscorpion

New Member
I wouldn't read too much into the Lib Dem Trident plans, its a useful policy to put some clear water between themselves and the other parties but one of the things they could compromise on in a coalition trading scenario.
 

Hambo

New Member
The critical issue is money, unfortunately Britain has too many capital projects coming together at the same time. CV's are not the issue, it's the spiralling costs and uncertainty of the F35B and other critical support assets that scares the number crunches (MASC, MARS, FSC, F35B), plus a v-expensive future SSBN. I'm convinced the UK will end up with at least one QE Carrier complete with a credible number of aircraft. A second remains a ?, simply because the UK can't afford to equip, escort and keep at sea two fully equipped strike carriers. The second will be either cancelled, end up as a glorified Commando/UCAV platform, held in reserve or sold off.

Whilst we bemoan a shrinking surface fleet you have to remember that the UK invests more in ISTAR than any other country in Europe (Predator, Reaper, Watchkeeper, Sentinel, Rivetjoint, GCHQ etc.), this will continue and I perceive the next SDR will demand even more money be spent funding such programmes at the expense of others. Big and heavy spear point assets will continue to be sacrificed to fund investment in ISTAR simply because good intelligence is worth a brigade of troops on the ground and can be used to mitigate the terrorist threat at home or abroad.


To be utterly frank in an age of asymmetrical warfare the average civvy will scratch his/her head as to why the UK needs the largest fleet of Typhoons (assuming Tranche 3) and the largest fleet of F35B's in Europe, particularly when the poor bloody infantry are perceived to be doing most of the fighting these days.

I'm convinced the UK can build a stretched ASTUTE capable of carrying a nuclear weapon system capable of deterring most rouge states. It may not be up there with Trident, but then again the Soviet Empire is long gone, Iran / NK can't strike the UK (as yet) and China ain't adopting an overtly aggressive and expansionist foreign policy. The real threat is some nutter detonating a N-Bomb in a major city, a 50bn nuclear deterrent is not going to prevent that happening.

The Lib-Dems are Euro obsessed, they would be happy if we kept one QE Class Carrier and tied its availability to that of our European allies (French and Italians). Thus saving jobs at the ship yards, boosting the UK's European standing, maintaining the ability to project and protect our ARG and save money. Work assigned to the PW could be diverted to FSC, or used to build a cheaper flat-top to replace Ocean
I think a stretched astute would be the logical way forward but I still think it needs to be Trident. You could have 6 missiles per boat, 3 could have the full pack of 10 warheads to deter a major power that may become agressive in the next 50 years , the other 3 could have a single variable yield warhead to deter the rogue state, then mix and match. Build 4 of them, mix and match the warhead numbers over time as the political system dictates.

Im not sure developing a cruise missile with a nuclear warhead is even viable in the sense of arms control, most cruise missile systems are limited by range, I can see building a nuclear cruise missile goes against world opinion more than halving a buy of a system we already use (albeit souped up E6).

Any state that buys a decent SAM system such as S300 would effectively have a good chance to cancel a cruise missile based deterrent, a major power Who wants to make mischief could just loan or sell a rogue state a decent SAM. In the same way Russia does with Iran in the will they-wont they sell them S300. Unless we put enough conventional cruise missiles in a package with the nuclear one to overwhelm the defences , it wouldnt be viable and therefore a waste of money.

Typhoon is a tricky one but the public really need to be educated in aircraft lifespans, the rest of the RAF fleet is quickly running out of hours so we will need something, and no one knows how much F35 is going to cost, that said some forward thinking 20 years ago would have helped and we would have a carier capable fighter.

Im not sure afghan type conflicts are the future, the sooner we get out the better, and I think the UK public may be less willing to commit to future conflicts of that type, despite what the army says, thats one benefit of a more balanced Parliament, we would be less likely to jump to US demands to join in any move against Iran.

I think the Libs will actually shoot them selves in the foot with the amnesty for illegals, and its our porous borders and lack of action that creates and easy operating environment for the would be terrorist.700,000 people hiding within a population of 60,000,000 is a disgrace. The idea that troops in afghanistan keeps the home front safe from terrorists is a farce, there may be other important reasons (eg propping up nuclear armed pakistan) but we are no safer thanks to the blood of our brave troops unfortunately, because there are still terrorists carrying out hostile reconnaisance across the UK as I type. Sacrificing proper high end warfighting ability for the anti terror agenda is a serious mistake.

The prospect of the nutter with an H bomb is real, but the cost of a proper border force, ID cards, holding cells for illegals, huge effort to deport illegals, minus the economic cost to the economy of their labour etc would cost more than 50 billion and will never politically happen, Trident might just deter the future sponsor of terror if not the martyr himself.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... I'm convinced the UK will end up with at least one QE Carrier complete with a credible number of aircraft. A second remains a ?, simply because the UK can't afford to equip, escort and keep at sea two fully equipped strike carriers. The second will be either cancelled, end up as a glorified Commando/UCAV platform, held in reserve or sold off. .
I keep posting this . . .

The plan is - and always has been - not to escort & keep at sea two fully equipped strike carriers. At any given time, one will be in service as a strike carrier. The other will either be in refit, reserve, or operating in the LPH role. They'll both have the same equipment.

It's no secret. It's been public for years. It's exactly how Ark Royal & Illustrious operate now, alongside Ocean. Three operational flat-tops: one carrier (when the Harriers aren't all being used by the RAF :( ), one LPH (either Ocean or the other carrier), one in refit/reserve/working up. The RN intends to keep that going.
 

citizen578

New Member
Some new details about T26:

•Assessment phase to last 4 years (18mth initial, followed by design phase)
•141m Length
•6850t
•towed and bow sonar
•2x FLAAD (CAMM) launchers
•VL system for Tomahawk, SCALP (/Naval Storm Shadow), or N-GMLRS
•Harpoon
•Main Gun (likely 155mm, possibly 127mm or retention of 114mm)
•2x Block 1B Phalanx
•Chinook capable flight deck
•Hanger space for Merlin + UAV (possibly housed in 'dog kennel' supplementary hangar)
•Large aft mission bay capble of at least 4x RHIB + mission modules
•Torpedo system
•Likely all-electric propulsion, possibly hybrid
•Range of at least 7000nm unrefuelled
•Crew of 150
•Capacity for at least 30 additional personnel
•Main Gate: late 2013
•In Service Date: 2021
•Introduction of 1 vessel per year from 2021, with 10 vessel run.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some new details about T26:

•Assessment phase to last 4 years (18mth initial, followed by design phase)
•141m Length
•6850t
•towed and bow sonar
•2x FLAAD (CAMM) launchers
•VL system for Tomahawk, SCALP (/Naval Storm Shadow), or N-GMLRS
•Harpoon
•Main Gun (likely 155mm, possibly 127mm or retention of 114mm)
•2x Block 1B Phalanx
•Chinook capable flight deck
•Hanger space for Merlin + UAV (possibly housed in 'dog kennel' supplementary hangar)
•Large aft mission bay capble of at least 4x RHIB + mission modules
•Torpedo system
•Likely all-electric propulsion, possibly hybrid
•Range of at least 7000nm unrefuelled
•Crew of 150
•Capacity for at least 30 additional personnel
•Main Gate: late 2013
•In Service Date: 2021
•Introduction of 1 vessel per year from 2021, with 10 vessel run.

Wot... No Depth Charges ???



It's a nice set of facts & figures, but can you 'quote' where you obtained the info / provide a link ??

SA
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Wot... No Depth Charges ???
But....but....but...you need depth charges!!

I thought the first ship was to commission ~2019 or 2020 with a 15 vessel run or something going from the latest info? ;)

Most the this "information" seems to be either speculation or guesswork based off the models?
 

1805

New Member
I wonder if there will be a C2 now or if a few of the T26 will be fitted for but not with. 2031 is a long time off but could it be the escort fleet will be 16 ships by then (6 T45 & 10 T26). We could be at 19 fairly soon if the 4 T22 get axed in defence cuts post the election?
 
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