The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Troothsayer]

I think the danager is the sale of one ship to say India. If the issues are short-medium term cashflow I think it would not be such a bad idea to sell one and then construct another ship later say from 2020. I would have thought a third would be cheaper and the construction schedule should be a lot less crowded

I'm not worried about selling them on at all. India are in the process of building their own indigenous carriers and aquiring the Gorshkov.

It'll be 2016 by the time QE is fully built, could be a whole different set of circumstances financially come that time.

 

[1805]

I'm not worried about selling them on at all. India are in the process of building their own indigenous carriers and aquiring the Gorshkov.

It'll be 2016 by the time QE is fully built, could be a whole different set of circumstances financially come that time.

I think a QE class would represent much better value for money for India than the old Gorshkov they have been throwing money at. But then they have spent most of already.

That said although I don't trust the Tories anymore than the Labour party, I do agree it would be very difficult to sell one of the carriers. Also as you point out there are very few potential buyers.

 

[Systems Adict]

Hi my name is kevin and I am a navy enthusiast.

If anyone can answer my question I would be greatful.

Regarding the new aircraft carriers that are being built from today onwards, how would I go about becoming part of the workforce as an apprentice? as I would love to be a part of this huge build!

I'd try here....

Trade Groups On Offer | Babcock International Group PLC

...& here

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Note, due to changes in UK law, apprenticeships are open to all ! (no longer the domain of school / college leavers !!)

So even if you're 35 you can still apply to be an apprentice.

From having to deal with a few people I know, BAE only do online applications now, so there's no point in turning up at the door of one of their sites, CV in hand, asking to speak to HR.

Additionally, the scheme they run for apprentices is only open for applications for a short time from like the begining of January, thru to the end of February. They also like people to have 5 UK standard grades, although some roles only need 3 or 4.

If you've got a technical / craft & design standard grade, maths & english, you'll probably have a better shot at a job too.

I got all this from helping the son of a friend make contact with a BAE employee I know, when he was applying last year.

From attending a job fair for school leavers(I was helping on a stall promoting an Institution), I also picked up that BAE gets about 3,000 applicants for it's apprenticeship scheme every year, even though they may only have 100 -200 jobs available across the whole of the UK in the shipbuilding sector.

Anyways, I hope that this is some help...

SA

 

[1805]

I have been looking at CIWS like the Kashtan and AK630M1 Roy, and I like the bolt on nature of the US Phalanx (if not the hitting power). I appreciate in the current cash strapped times there is no money about, however I really think such a system would be an excellent CIWS for major warships or primary AA system on RFAs or C3 type ships. Assuming CAMM will be in the Sea Wolf/RAM anti missile space surely it would be possible to develop a twin Gun/Missile solution in a c10-12ton bolt on mount. I know CAMM is currently a VLS on ships but I assume it will be in containers as a land system?

I don't think Kashtan is actually bolt on or many other systems like Goalkeeper, but Phalanx is completely standalone/bolt on, what do people think?

 

[Hambo]

I have been looking at CIWS like the Kashtan and AK630M1 Roy, and I like the bolt on nature of the US Phalanx (if not the hitting power). I appreciate in the current cash strapped times there is no money about, however I really think such a system would be an excellent CIWS for major warships or primary AA system on RFAs or C3 type ships. Assuming CAMM will be in the Sea Wolf/RAM anti missile space surely it would be possible to develop a twin Gun/Missile solution in a c10-12ton bolt on mount. I know CAMM is currently a VLS on ships but I assume it will be in containers as a land system?

I don't think Kashtan is actually bolt on or many other systems like Goalkeeper, but Phalanx is completely standalone/bolt on, what do people think?

1805, there are a few snippets on CAAM online, Jaynes and the naval institute site. From the things that technophobe like me can pick up it is quite well advanced.

It apears to be compatible with the Command systems on the Type 23, and designed for software upgrades, I expect it will be added to T45 in time meaning ASTER 15 could be deleted and the cells used for the bigger missile, all it will need is a data link for some mid course updates.

They have been testing the seeker in "captive trials" whatever that means, using an aircraft to prove the seeker in high clutter environments.

The Soft Vertical Launch means it can will come in a sealed container with a gas piston at the base, it wont need a gas eflux system so wont rely in existing VLS, meaning it can be bolted around the ship in clustersand so will be much cheaper, The SVL fires it 80-100ft up where the motor starts so there are no thermal effects on the ship, Im not sure what they will do on the T23, maybe use the space of the seawolf cells, or maybe put small clusters around the ship and use the space for something else?

The land version is supposed to be truck based with each flatbed having 2 x 12 cells that are raised vertically, I think the idea is for a search radar to find the target, fire the CAAM in the general direction and let the seeker scan and do the rest. A footprint of a small truck bed would make CAAM ideal to bolt onto ship decks?there seems plenty of room on the T45 for this?

As to gun systems, defensenews is reporting a UK,FRENCH joint study on some cased telescoped 40mm gun system and ammunition, which seems to be beer can sized cartridges with the propellent packed around the sides, reducing the size of the round and is being offered for FRES and Warrior upgrade, with some innovative feed system meaning a 40mm weapon takes up the same turret space as a 25mm cannon. They are offering armour piercing, GP and fused airburst rounds. If it is really light weight and to be used by the army, I suspect it would be easy to offer to the RN as a canon upgrade. Wouldnt the bigger round provide more stopping power? I dont know, but it suggests yet another home grown solution is available for the future.

I think things are looking quite promising, rather than a highly specialised missile, that dictates the size of the ship, CAAM would seem to be very exportable and bolt on. I would be curious if they could make Meteor into a ship based SAM, lots of range,similare heritage to Aster, Caam etc and a direct rival to ESSM on the export market.

 

[1805]

1805, there are a few snippets on CAAM online, Jaynes and the naval institute site. From the things that technophobe like me can pick up it is quite well advanced.

It apears to be compatible with the Command systems on the Type 23, and designed for software upgrades, I expect it will be added to T45 in time meaning ASTER 15 could be deleted and the cells used for the bigger missile, all it will need is a data link for some mid course updates.

They have been testing the seeker in "captive trials" whatever that means, using an aircraft to prove the seeker in high clutter environments.

The Soft Vertical Launch means it can will come in a sealed container with a gas piston at the base, it wont need a gas eflux system so wont rely in existing VLS, meaning it can be bolted around the ship in clustersand so will be much cheaper, The SVL fires it 80-100ft up where the motor starts so there are no thermal effects on the ship, Im not sure what they will do on the T23, maybe use the space of the seawolf cells, or maybe put small clusters around the ship and use the space for something else?

The land version is supposed to be truck based with each flatbed having 2 x 12 cells that are raised vertically, I think the idea is for a search radar to find the target, fire the CAAM in the general direction and let the seeker scan and do the rest. A footprint of a small truck bed would make CAAM ideal to bolt onto ship decks?there seems plenty of room on the T45 for this?

As to gun systems, defensenews is reporting a UK,FRENCH joint study on some cased telescoped 40mm gun system and ammunition, which seems to be beer can sized cartridges with the propellent packed around the sides, reducing the size of the round and is being offered for FRES and Warrior upgrade, with some innovative feed system meaning a 40mm weapon takes up the same turret space as a 25mm cannon. They are offering armour piercing, GP and fused airburst rounds. If it is really light weight and to be used by the army, I suspect it would be easy to offer to the RN as a canon upgrade. Wouldnt the bigger round provide more stopping power? I dont know, but it suggests yet another home grown solution is available for the future.

I think things are looking quite promising, rather than a highly specialised missile, that dictates the size of the ship, CAAM would seem to be very exportable and bolt on. I would be curious if they could make Meteor into a ship based SAM, lots of range,similare heritage to Aster, Caam etc and a direct rival to ESSM on the export market.

I have just looked up a mock up of the 2 x 12 cell truck based solution and I could certainly see such a combination around a Goalkeeper type system. I think the 40mm gun system is not in the CIWS space? What impresses me about the Kashtan/AK630M1 Roy was the twin gatlin gun the shear rate of fire 8-10,000 rpm. Also could CAMM being controled by something like the Phalanx/Sea RAM. It does look much lighter on trackers/illumination requirements?

I

 

[Systems Adict]

I have been looking at CIWS like the Kashtan and AK630M1 Roy, and I like the bolt on nature of the US Phalanx (if not the hitting power). I appreciate in the current cash strapped times there is no money about, however I really think such a system would be an excellent CIWS for major warships or primary AA system on RFAs or C3 type ships. Assuming CAMM will be in the Sea Wolf/RAM anti missile space surely it would be possible to develop a twin Gun/Missile solution in a c10-12ton bolt on mount. I know CAMM is currently a VLS on ships but I assume it will be in containers as a land system?

I don't think Kashtan is actually bolt on or many other systems like Goalkeeper, but Phalanx is completely standalone/bolt on, what do people think?

Mmm...

The 1st thing that comes to mind on this is an old, well spoken addage....


"If it aint broke, don't fix it !"

& it's still true....

Why should be upgrade for the sake of upgrading ??

Phalanx is a good system. It's stand alone / bolt-on & it does exactly wot it says on the tin.

Yes there are slightly more modern systems out there, but we know it works, our ships are fitted out for it, so it doesn't make sense to throw away perfectly good kit, just for the sake of it.


SA

 

[1805]

Mmm...

The 1st thing that comes to mind on this is an old, well spoken addage....


"If it aint broke, don't fix it !"

& it's still true....

Why should be upgrade for the sake of upgrading ??

Phalanx is a good system. It's stand alone / bolt-on & it does exactly wot it says on the tin.

Yes there are slightly more modern systems out there, but we know it works, our ships are fitted out for it, so it doesn't make sense to throw away perfectly good kit, just for the sake of it.


SA

True but Phalanx is nearly 30 years old and the threats it faced: subsonic sea skimming missiles has changed. Also at 20mm it's always been one of the lighter CIWS, the RN has used Goalkeeper on the Invincibles, and I suspect used Phalanx on some T42 because it is light and self sufficent. It has been upgraded and is very accurate as demonstrated by its use on land in the Gulf against mortar round etc. The RN and many other Navies prefer missiles for the hitting power Sea Wolf/RAM. I think the Kashtan offers both?

 

[windscorpion]

Have any of the T23s received their radar upgrades yet with the Artisan 3D radar?

 

[Goknub]

30 Phalanx

Whilst CIWS is being talked about, the Phalanx is only brought down by its small calibre so what would be the difficulties in installing a 30mm+ gun in its place?

Obviously ammo storage would need to be re-worked and recoil would be a much larger problem but to my mind it would be far easier
(and cheaper) to evolve the existing CIWS than design a new system from the ground up.

Thoughts?

 

[Grim901]

Whilst CIWS is being talked about, the Phalanx is only brought down by its small calibre so what would be the difficulties in installing a 30mm+ gun in its place?

Obviously ammo storage would need to be re-worked and recoil would be a much larger problem but to my mind it would be far easier
(and cheaper) to evolve the existing CIWS than design a new system from the ground up.

Thoughts?

Whilst reading the proposals further up the page that was the idea that came to my mind. Would it be possible to use the new 40mm round (that only takes up the space of a 25mm) onto the Phalanx mounting and radar?

That plus CAMM would be a powerful combination.

 

[1805]

Whilst CIWS is being talked about, the Phalanx is only brought down by its small calibre so what would be the difficulties in installing a 30mm+ gun in its place?

Obviously ammo storage would need to be re-worked and recoil would be a much larger problem but to my mind it would be far easier
(and cheaper) to evolve the existing CIWS than design a new system from the ground up.

Thoughts?

I agree particulary when you think the 30mm gun in the Goalkeeper is a related US weapon. Mind these Russian Kashtan's with 2 x 30mm & SAM would be a massive leap forwards. I think such a system could be linked with a container based CAMM attached. Idea for bolting on RFAs/C3s assuming they will not be fitted with SAMs all the time

 

[StevoJH]

I agree particulary when you think the 30mm gun in the Goalkeeper is a related US weapon. Mind these Russian Kashtan's with 2 x 30mm & SAM would be a massive leap forwards. I think such a system could be linked with a container based CAMM attached. Idea for bolting on RFAs/C3s assuming they will not be fitted with SAMs all the time

Its computer software/hardware is most likely not even compatible with the UK CMS. There was a ship mounted Starstreak under development at one stage though.

 

[1805]

Its computer software/hardware is most likely not even compatible with the UK CMS. There was a ship mounted Starstreak under development at one stage though.

I was more thinking of a UK based system using the same 30mm US guns as Goalkeeper and CAMM rather than using the Russian Kashtan. I just like the concept of such concentrated firepower

 

[Systems Adict]

Have any of the T23s received their radar upgrades yet with the Artisan 3D radar?

Mmm...

BAE, jointly with the RN, only announced the Artisan being fitted onto RN ships as a replacement to 996 in August last year (2009), with the latest T-23 coming out of refit in October. While it could have been possible to fit it, I have a feeling that they want to finish some development on it prior to fitting. (well that & costs...).

News and Events : Royal Navy

SA

 

[Systems Adict]

Whilst CIWS is being talked about, the Phalanx is only brought down by its small calibre so what would be the difficulties in installing a 30mm+ gun in its place?

Obviously ammo storage would need to be re-worked and recoil would be a much larger problem but to my mind it would be far easier
(and cheaper) to evolve the existing CIWS than design a new system from the ground up.

Thoughts?

Mmmm... ??

WHY, when T-23, T-45, Wave Ruler, Wave Knight, Albion & Bullwark are fitted with a 30mm gun (or two) & the x4 Bay class LSD(A)'s a facility to fit them, would we replace CWIS/Phalanx with a 'bolt-on' 30mm mount ???

While these 30mm cannons can fire upto 600 rounds/min & could be used for AA protection, the Phalanx is better as a 'last resort' weapon.

Not many things (if anything), will get passed a wall of lead made up of 1,200 rounds/min !

As my old granny used to say...

" If it aint broke, don't try to fix it !"

(& yes I'm well aware I sound like a broken record, repeating this statement, but it's becoming a mantra, trying to explain to individuals WHY, it's better to utilise what we have, instead of throwing cash at new, underdeveloped technology...)

SA

 

[windscorpion]

Mmm...

BAE, jointly with the RN, only announced the Artisan being fitted onto RN ships as a replacement to 996 in August last year (2009), with the latest T-23 coming out of refit in October. While it could have been possible to fit it, I have a feeling that they want to finish some development on it prior to fitting. (well that & costs...).

News and Events : Royal Navy

SA

2009? I thought they announced it in August 2008?

 

[1805]

Mmmm... ??

WHY, when T-23, T-45, Wave Ruler, Wave Knight, Albion & Bullwark are fitted with a 30mm gun (or two) & the x4 Bay class LSD(A)'s a facility to fit them, would we replace CWIS/Phalanx with a 'bolt-on' 30mm mount ???

While these 30mm cannons can fire upto 600 rounds/min & could be used for AA protection, the Phalanx is better as a 'last resort' weapon.

Not many things (if anything), will get passed a wall of lead made up of 1,200 rounds/min !

As my old granny used to say...

" If it aint broke, don't try to fix it !"

(& yes I'm well aware I sound like a broken record, repeating this statement, but it's becoming a mantra, trying to explain to individuals WHY, it's better to utilise what we have, instead of throwing cash at new, underdeveloped technology...)

SA

I didn't mean replace with the type of 30mm guns on a number of warships, I am sure they could be used for AA fire but not seriously. The point about 30mm was upgunning the 20mmm Phalanx with a heavier but similar type of gun like the one used in the Goalkeeper (GAU-8) .

I think the use of Phalanx on land in Iraq has shown it's accuracy, but there has always been a question mark over its hitting power, but in the future with much heavier/faster missiles it must be even more in question. I think the RN has been very lukewarm on any form of gun AA/CIWS and put nearly all its faith in SAMs/Sea Wolf. I agree to a degree but think it is worth considering both; matching CAMM with 1 or 2 30mm Gatlin type weapons in a self contained solution would I believe be attractive.

 

[Grim901]

If anything the RN are likely to be the warmest on the idea of CIWS systems (I wouldn't count the Sea Wolf SAM system as one really) since they learnt first hand that they need them. No one else has really had that experience.

I don't think there are any plans to only use CAMM in future, it is not meant to be the innermost air defence layer (last ditch attempt) system that CIWS is.

 

[1805]

If anything the RN are likely to be the warmest on the idea of CIWS systems (I wouldn't count the Sea Wolf SAM system as one really) since they learnt first hand that they need them. No one else has really had that experience.

I don't think there are any plans to only use CAMM in future, it is not meant to be the innermost air defence layer (last ditch attempt) system that CIWS is.

I think it is best to have both SAMs & Guns in the anti missile space, but the RN doesn't seem to and they definately don't see guns in the AA role. They have always regarded Sea Wolf as an anti missile solution, and never fitted Goalkeeper to the T23s. In fact I think they have only fitted both to the Batch 3 T22s. I don't know why they used Phalanx on the T42 but I suspect it was the only CIWS that would fit with the topweight issues on them. I think the original Phalanx on the CVs went on T42 aswell?

It is quite surpising how poor RN air defences are when as you say they of all people should know better after the Falkands, but they had forgotten before an have done again it would seem