The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
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Troothsayer
New Member
None of the transcripts seem to cover the Q&A session afterwards. I definitely heard the same though - Type 26
Meanwhile more doubts about the carriers?
Unions’ fears over Tory plans for shipbuilding - Herald Scotland | News | Home News
Meanwhile more doubts about the carriers?
Unions’ fears over Tory plans for shipbuilding - Herald Scotland | News | Home News
pimpin1986
New Member
kev
Hi my name is kevin and I am a navy enthusiast.
If anyone can answer my question I would be greatful.
Regarding the new aircraft carriers that are being built from today onwards, how would I go about becoming part of the workforce as an apprentice? as I would love to be a part of this huge build!
Hi my name is kevin and I am a navy enthusiast.
If anyone can answer my question I would be greatful.
Regarding the new aircraft carriers that are being built from today onwards, how would I go about becoming part of the workforce as an apprentice? as I would love to be a part of this huge build!
the latest news in the times,today, is that the carriers are finally safe and beyond cancellation due to their state of build and progress with orders ......good news.
now we just have to resist selling one of them on,when they are built and hopefully buy enough f35's/rafales/naval typhoons to equip BOTH of them.....
now we just have to resist selling one of them on,when they are built and hopefully buy enough f35's/rafales/naval typhoons to equip BOTH of them.....
There are mixed messages, the Scotsman and Herald are all doom and gloom about Liam Fox meeting Union Leaders and talking about "break clauses". Labour in Scotland are casting it as carriers safe under labour, cancelled under Tories, even the Lib Never Get Ins are supposedly in favour. Admittedly scottish press will be anti Tory and the Unions fund Labour..but.
What worries me is why if the Tories are committed wont they just say so? Why would they hand over such potentially damaging political ammunition by keeping quiet? I think Fox is a clown but even so??
Surely they realise there is no plan B, unless they are suddenly going to order T45,Astutes and MARS, then the UK ship building industry will be killed. Being as their friends in the City will vacate the UK if the bonus culture is regulated, then that doesnt bode well for UK PLC.
10,000 shipworkers paying say £10,000 tax a year equals £100,000,000. Add 10,000 workers claiming the dole at £5000 equals £50,000,000. Say it takes these skilled workers an average of 1 year to find a job at a gardening centre, McDonalds or a call centre then cancelling the carriers may only cost George Osborne "break clauses" plus £150,000,000 . Surely they arent that dumb??? Thing is they just might be.
I hope they get welding, we need a few ship like blocksASAP before the election.
They are that dumb! But if they aren't making a descision till November 2011 quite a lot of work must have been done/committed to. I guess there is the danger of a sale, let hope not, but even if the RN only get one ship a huge leap forward.
True, but I would be happier if say in 2006, HMG handed the full sum to BVT to get on with the job. At the minute it seems that a new contract or long lead item is issued almost weekly, eg a drip drip drip
If the Tories win in May 2010 and think they may end up cancelling post SDR 2011, are they likely to drip £50 here, £20m there for different chunksof the carrier or component parts?, when that would actually make the decision to canel harder.?
I suspect we might see a postponement of work until the SDR. The problem is, once in with a deficit of £174 billion thye can virtaully get away with aything, and the press, having no interest in defence will hardly bat an eyelid.
Like you say though, I would be happy with one at the minute, but cancellation of number 2 wrecks the industry, a future govt may have to order POW from a french yard.
In many ways although I think 65,000t is great, but I would be more comfortable if they had gone with 45-50,000t and cheaper not as capable but a huge leap forward on the Invincibles. I know steel is cheap but i its not free. Also what a waste with that recent delay, if only they had been ordered on the basis of longer timescales. Still maybe we are worrying unnecessarily.
kev 99
Member
I wouldn't say tha'ts true at all, what I would say is that the press only care when its bad news in defence i.e. when project X is way over budget and doesn't work as advertised, or how much it costs and how many schools could be built for the same amount of money, so basically it's bad news sells, which is pretty much the way the press works in all walks of life.
I think people are making a little bit too much of the current defecit. Much of the cost of such expensive projects as Astute boats 5-8, Vanguard replacement and QE CV (i.e. the F-35) will occur in almost a decade. Hopefully, there will be no financial meltdown at that point!
Troothsayer
New Member
But it would be the current defecit that would bring the downfall of the carriers. It shouldn't because £5bn in relative terms is a pittance. The savings on cancellation will be minimal when job & industry losses are taken into account. The trouble is the carriers are political for the lefties in this country and a target.
This is a vital stage in the history of the RN. Another cancelled carrier project following CVA01 will put us out of the carrier game for the rest of most of our lifetimes.
In my opinion, if the next UK government are serious about keeping 14 overseas territories and go without naval air power projection then Britain gets everything it deserves coming its way with South America enviously eyeing up Oil & Mineral resources.
This is a vital stage in the history of the RN. Another cancelled carrier project following CVA01 will put us out of the carrier game for the rest of most of our lifetimes.
In my opinion, if the next UK government are serious about keeping 14 overseas territories and go without naval air power projection then Britain gets everything it deserves coming its way with South America enviously eyeing up Oil & Mineral resources.
Agreed. If you cut on the armed forces strategic capability you effectivly make a statement on overseas vulnerability.
The £5bn is a fraction of the cost of the ships. The real cost/value is the airwing that is being purchased for it. And the real big costs on that (i believe) will not fal due for around a decade.
The problem will be the budget squeeze over the next 2/3 years as the public debt is re-paid. Hopefully selling the banks can help in this regard at some stage in the future.
I would have thought that of all the defence projects over the last 20 years, the 2 carriers represent the best value of money/reinvestment in employment, even at the inflated £5bn. I know we are not taking in refits etc but spread over 50 years? As for the aircraft costs I don't see why they should have cost anything more if we just replace 50-60 proposed land based orders with F35b or c's. Those aircraft will end up seeing 10 times the active service on the carriers. But in the meantime 12 F35 on one CV would do.
Hi
Construction is infact fairly advanced, The bulbous bow has allready been complete as has another bow section, the rudder is under construction supports for the flight deck have been complete, parts of the double bottom are finished 2 sets of stabilzers are finished and a few other bits are complet. The article about work starting was just the work at Portsmouth shipyard. By November the Queen will be well under construction I dont see her being cut as for the 2nd unit i dont know. Here is a link to a video of the construction time line of a CVF.
I could genuinely see Osbourne culling POW. It really depends who has the ear of the The Tory leadership, if its an army-centric type there are several compelling (to a politician) arguments.
The Invincible class have been extremely flexible at 20,000 tonnes, they can do strike and LPH, and its not hard for an army chief to say they are excellent for Sierra Leone type missions and landing soldiers (the fact RM are navy may be glossed over). Then He would point out that for the last 30 years the navy has managed with two small squadrons of Harrier and everything has gone swimmingly, citing multi national operations etc etc..".so why do the Admirals want to swap perfectly flexible "affordable" ships for something so big that it will bancrupt the country to fill with aircraft??"
An army type may point to Cavour, or the RAN's Canberra and say "they would be ideal, great for disater relief in Haiti, landing soldiers in Africa and if we put on a squadron of F35;s would make a perfectly adequate carrier, just what our allies are using blah blah blah"...and they would save the treasury a packet.
So by the time of the SDR , if QE looks too much like a warship, it may survive. Look at the Tory idea for Trident , that is to defer new builds to 2029, so they could blame Labour and the RN for "selling off perfectly good ships too early" and eek out as many years as possible for Ark Royal and Illustrious. Chuck a couple of refits at the shipyards to "save" jobs and that might be enough for Political conscience at the damage they have done.
They then buy a very small amount of F35 and now and then let the "RAF" land on QE and the Ark,selling the pretence we have a carrier force, deferring the pain until much later.
Of course in reality there is no real alternative. Cavour is reported to cost 1.4 billion euros and the canberras 3billion Aus dollars for two, but logic never really bothers a politicican and I can see those ships as appealing to any spin they put post SDR.
Of course the Toies may intend building both and are just keeping their powder dry.
I agree, I do think there would have been a compromise if the RN had gone for a 45-50,000t ship about now and a second in c2020 (maybe a third in 2030). Such carriers would still have been capable of operating c50 aircraft, say 40 fixed wing, each ship would carry greater than the the forces we deployed in GW1? Its like the T45 why try and build 12 in one go, if they had just gone for 4 each decade this is manageable and maintains industrial capability (removing these huge gaps that lead to Astute like problems) and enable gradual development/improvement, look how the Burkes has matured over 20 years.
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Kevin,
what started yesterday (today when you wrote your post) was the building of sections in Portsmouth. Construction of other sections has been underway for some time at other locations.
I suppose you should apply for an apprenticeship at one of the yards making sections, or at Rosyth where they'll be put together. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
You can't "cull" a ship you're contractually obliged to buy, which is the case here.
I think the danager is the sale of one ship to say India. If the issues are short-medium term cashflow I think it would not be such a bad idea to sell one and then construct another ship later say from 2020. I would have thought a third would be cheaper and the construction schedule should be a lot less crowded