Stalin's Back!

[Feanor]

An interesting bit of news. After a recent scandal where during the restoration of an old subway station in Moscow, resulted in an old version of the Soviet hymn mentioning Stalin, the issue was further exacerbated. Moscow authorities intend to put up a large sized portrait of Stalin in the place where the Moscow people's militia was formed during WWII, along with stands with portraits of Stalin, and historical information on his contribution to the victory over WWII. Liberal human rights groups are already up in arms. Head of the CPRF, Zyuganov, has already praised it as a brave move.

NEWSmsk.com â Ìîñêâå: Êî Äíþ Ïîáåäû Ìîñêâó õîòÿò óêðàñèòü ïîðòðåòàìè Ñòàëèíà. Ìîñêîâñêèå íîâîñòè, ïîãîäà è ïðîáêè â Ìîñêâå, ïîèñê è àðõèâ íîâîñòåé

It will involve portraits and posters hung on facades of buildings, in preparation for victory day celebrations in May.

Thoughts?

At first this brought a smile to my face. But then again, this sort of thing has been brewing for a while. And the UR has not really taken any solid position on the matter.

 

[plasmahawk]

An interesting bit of news. After a recent scandal where during the restoration of an old subway station in Moscow, resulted in an old version of the Soviet hymn mentioning Stalin, the issue was further exacerbated. Moscow authorities intend to put up a large sized portrait of Stalin in the place where the Moscow people's militia was formed during WWII, along with stands with portraits of Stalin, and historical information on his contribution to the victory over WWII. Liberal human rights groups are already up in arms. Head of the CPRF, Zyuganov, has already praised it as a brave move.

NEWSmsk.com â Ìîñêâå: Êî Äíþ Ïîáåäû Ìîñêâó õîòÿò óêðàñèòü ïîðòðåòàìè Ñòàëèíà. Ìîñêîâñêèå íîâîñòè, ïîãîäà è ïðîáêè â Ìîñêâå, ïîèñê è àðõèâ íîâîñòåé

It will involve portraits and posters hung on facades of buildings, in preparation for victory day celebrations in May.

Thoughts?

At first this brought a smile to my face. But then again, this sort of thing has been brewing for a while. And the UR has not really taken any solid position on the matter.

Feanor, as I am sure you expected I am the first to get to replying on this...maybe not the first maybe second.

First of, on a non serious, but still serious note - perhaps they should also put up Mikheil Saakashvili photo in moscow, since Stalin was a Georgian too But instead Mr. Medvedev just declared him to be a person non grata, in Russia.. hehehe

At the end of the day, in say 50 years who will remember the Patriot Act or Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib and who will remember G.W.Bush as the man who was there during 911 and under whom the nation together after a terrorist attack and took the war to the faceless enemy who threatened/threaten the nation.

Its all the same with Tovarish Stalin, yes he did bad things, but it was under his rule during the direct assault of the Nazi that Russia, and it was Russia between 1941-1943 who turned the tide of the war and pushed away a superior and more organized force away from its capital and drove it back home and to a final defeat.

I would not worry about it, perhaps from a perspective of Nationalism, Stalin is a strange thing to show as he did drive out and executed many minorities, but as a Soviet Nationalism, he was there and it was under him that Soviet Union survived and won the war. People wont remember the detail, but will remember that it was Stalin who led the nation to victory.

On a side note I am hoping to go to Russia for a visit during late April early May for the parade, I will post picture as I take them down there.

Long live comrade Lenin, Marx, Engels and may Stalin's stern mustache remind us of IS2 Tank:gun!
Plas

 

[Marc 1]

Its all the same with Tovarish Stalin, yes he did bad things, but it was under his rule during the direct assault of the Nazi that Russia, and it was Russia between 1941-1943 who turned the tide of the war and pushed away a superior and more organized force away from its capital and drove it back home and to a final defeat.

Plas

It could also be pointed out that if Stalin wasn't in contol for the years before and the initial years or WWII, perhaps ther may not have been a need to 'save' Russia in the first place. His purges of the military in the late 1930's where just about all the experience was removed and shot, his actions to disbelieve all the warning signs of an imminent invasion left the poorly lead troops also not expecting attack. These actions significantly imperrilled his own country.

 

[Feanor]

I'd dispute the experience of the commanders that were removed in the first place. Or rather then experience, their skill.

If I were you I'd do some more serious reading on the subject. Remember to have shot competent commanders you need to have trained those competent commanders first.

Stalin's failure wasn't that he shot the good commanders. It was that he never bothered to train and raise a generation of professional officers.

 

[plasmahawk]

I'd dispute the experience of the commanders that were removed in the first place. Or rather then experience, their skill.

If I were you I'd do some more serious reading on the subject. Remember to have shot competent commanders you need to have trained those competent commanders first.

Stalin's failure wasn't that he shot the good commanders. It was that he never bothered to train and raise a generation of professional officers.

Also the valuable people were not "put down" they were sent for long term vacation, such as Comrade Tupolev, who was in a concentration camp but was called back to build bombers and later was in charge of copying the B29 into the Tu4. Tupolev was later fully re-patriated by Kruschev.

Stalin's purges did eliminate many powerfull opponents and opponents to be, as well as many excellent mounted cavalry commanders. I think this thread is a bit too historical and can deteriorate into a yes he did/no he didnt kind of a discussion.

The statistics of the purges, and the executions, and the war losses, and the side who did win WW2 are all there, I think its too late now to start a he did / he didnt kind of a discussion on this topic. :duel

I will say and this is from my view of Russia right now, if Stalin came to power, and had to straighten out Russia again, to remove all the people who are taking bribes, all the people who are usurping power, executions and mass deportations would be the only way.

Russia is a nation that in "freedom" turns into the wild west greed and sloth, and must always have an Iron hand with a blood covered fist to be straightened out. Its the nature of Russia, I am sorry to say and admit as a Russian. What happened to Khodorkovsky should have happened to thousands in Russia in the last ten years, and this would have cleared out the rats from the ship, and don't think I am as mean as Stalin, I am a Russian Nationalist.. perhaps one and the other are very similar.

I will refer you to: Fatov - Simpsons Wiki

Cheers
Plas

 

[wing fan]

I'm sorry, but didn't Stalin kill thousands of his own people and had his men shoot the bezprizornye (homeless) for no reason! I am in history and have to read a book called "Stalin - Russia's Man of Steel" and it says everything he did. I would not do any of the "picture putting up" if it was for a dictator that killed such a large amount of people.

Sorry if i sound offensive, but i don't think it is a good idea. His own men didn't like him, so why like him now? he's dead. what is there to "honor" or praise? Please, i would love to know.

- wing fan

 

[Marc 1]

I'd dispute the experience of the commanders that were removed in the first place. Or rather then experience, their skill.

If I were you I'd do some more serious reading on the subject. Remember to have shot competent commanders you need to have trained those competent commanders first.

Stalin's failure wasn't that he shot the good commanders. It was that he never bothered to train and raise a generation of professional officers.

Hmmm, I guess I have a rather western influenced upbringing being a child of the cold war. Suggested reading?

 

[plasmahawk]

I'm sorry

never be sorry, comrade! ( unless you start a X vs Y thread.. ) :

..... "Stalin - Russia's Man of Steel" and it says everything he did.

His own men didn't like him, so why like him now? he's dead. what is there to "honor" or praise?

His men feared him, but the nation loved him ( do a search in google : Stalin's Funeral ) the people also feared and loved him, the repressions and executions took place, many people were sent out of the capital to the Gulags

Stalin`s death history

I am not pro-Stalin, but his "deeds" are forgotten by youth of today, and his actions are remembered.... in genral he was never hated by the public, when I was in my youth in USSR there were portraits of Stalin in many many homes, of the people, truck drivers had it hanging from their rear view mirror ( kind of like hawaiian hula girls are in US vehicles ) ...

I am not going to try to convince or change your mind about what you think about Stalin, but he did not drink human blood as far as I have heard, he did make a cup out of Hitler's skull they say...

Cheers
Plas

 

[wing fan]

I am not going to try to convince or change your mind about what you think about Stalin, but he did not drink human blood as far as I have heard, he did make a cup out of Hitler's skull they say...

First and foremost, Thank you for not trying to change my mind. I respect that very much. Thank you.

Secondly.....

I am not trying to be an a**, but he killed more people than Hitler did. Why doesn't anyone read about this stuff anymore? Hasn't anyone ever heard of Bloody Sunday? The people of Russia said "Double, Triple the guard around this (stalin's) tomb, so that Stalin may never get out, nor the past with Stalin." I think they (and myself) hated him. He starved his people so much, they started to eat the glue off of the furnature, as well as the people who had died from starvation. That is why i don't think they should do anything to "honor" him in any way. My opinion, you don't have to believe it.

Laters

- wing fan

 

[Feanor]

Hmmm, I guess I have a rather western influenced upbringing being a child of the cold war. Suggested reading?

Viktor Suvorov raises interesting questions about the nature of the purges in his book "Cleansing". I'm not sure if an English copy exists, as google came up practically blank. The Russian title is Ochischenie.

Cleansing (Очищение). Why did Stalin behead his army?, Moscow, 2002, ISBN 5-17-009254-7

Wing fan we can debate for a very long time about the causes of the 1933 famine. However please keep in mind that Stalin's USSR was not a totalitarian dictatorship. It was a complex political oligarchy with Byzantine internal power balance. It's hard to imagine an intentional famine that is then met with relief efforts (like the distribution of grain and flour to peasants in the winter of '37 and '38).

 

[wing fan]

:wah Why doesn't anyone know about this stuff? If anyone on here would like to know where i am getting the info i have, do please get the book "Stalin - Russia's Man of Steel". It says everything!!!!! Please?

Well i can't change anyone's mind i guess, but i just wanted to put where i stand on it in here.

- wing fan

 

[plasmahawk]

:wah Why doesn't anyone know about this stuff? If anyone on here would like to know where i am getting the info i have, do please get the book "Stalin - Russia's Man of Steel". It says everything!!!!! Please?
Well i can't change anyone's mind i guess, but i just wanted to put where i stand on it in here.
- wing fan

WingFan, dont think we are all blood thirsty Stalin supporters on this forum! You read the book and it shocked you, I lived in USSR and later in Russia and saw how people admired Stalin.

This should be the biggest shock, and the question, why... why is there a discrepancy between the book you read about how evil Stalin was and some guy on the forum ( aka me ) telling you that people actually loved Stalin.

PS please dont think I am preaching or being parental at this point ( Im only 27 so not that "old" lol )

The best approach is to read 3 or 5 books look at it from different perspectives see if you have friends in school or university who are of soviet background and talk to them and their parents if you are interested in the perspectives, even within the soviet nations you will see differing views too.

Learning is a life long path and road and you will come across many people with different views and perspectives you must never be shocked at their perspective however, rather than be shocked at yourself for not understanding them and then challenge yourself and try to understand them and their view, finally making a decision as to what is right for you what is not right for you.

I am worried that the Stalin book you mentioned is listed as a standard school text and the part "About the Author" lists the following: About the Author: Dr. Albert Marrin is a master at weaving personal perspective and historical material smoothly to give readers an interesting and reliable account of the subject.

Always ask why, and never accept one answer - get three or four and make the decision on your own. Just imagine if you were to write an essay and give to your teach with the perspective of "One man, One Nation, its blood, war and rapid industrialization" :daz

All the best, and dont get discouraged with us or defencetalk forum!
Plas

 

[Feanor]

:wah Why doesn't anyone know about this stuff? If anyone on here would like to know where i am getting the info i have, do please get the book "Stalin - Russia's Man of Steel". It says everything!!!!! Please?

Well i can't change anyone's mind i guess, but i just wanted to put where i stand on it in here.

- wing fan

I do know about this stuff. However I have done extensive reading on the subject, and the man of steel image of Stalin as a unitary and all-powerful dictator is not accurate. He was the one who stayed in the upper echelons of what was a very complex system of internal politics.

A few things to keep in mind. Soviet politics were not limited to politicians. Everything was political, because the system rested on client-patron relations that extended into practically every walk of life. The number of people "Stalin killed" and "Hitler killed" are practically impossible to compare, because who counts and who doesn't? All executions carried out when those leaders were in power? That's like claiming that those leaders had control over every aspect of the judicial system, which is rather far from the truth. And if we start to unwind the complex threads of power balance we quickly find out that many of those who were executed were not as innocent as one might think. (Especially in regards to the purges of the armed forces, please read up on what Yakir, Tukhachevsky, and Dybenko were doing during the Civil War, and how they got to their positions of power. Yakir's Chinese mercenaries known for particular brutality are an especially unpleasant anecdote.)

The far more interesting question is what the current political leadership hopes to achieve through this sort of revival. It's clear they can milk Stalinist political capital, but they've already been doing that under a nationalist banner. The liberal protests are likely to be weak, and generally ignorable (as they don't represent a particularly potent political force, in it's heyday Yabloko didn't manage to get even 20% of the votes for example). On the other hand this victory day parade will involve service members from other countries, Britain and France have already received invitations. It will also be a very massive one, even by Putin-era standards. So the inevitable question arises what effect this will have on foreign partners, participants, and public opinion of Russia in general.

 

[wing fan]

PS please dont think I am preaching or being parental at this point ( Im only 27 so not that "old" lol )

Dude, your only a little older than my brother. Don't worry.

But i do understand where you guys are coming from. I just got a little too excited. And i am done reading that book, i'll stick to military autobiographies. written by the soldier.

see if you have friends in school or university who are of soviet backround

Um..... I am home schooled, but i will be going to a college next year for classes, even if i am only going to be 16.

Thanx for all of your guys help and info.

Laters!

- wing fan

 

[dtleio]

Although some ppl dont like Stalin very much, but dont forget he ever saved Russia from Nazi's hand.Pls dont tell me there must be another guy will resucre Russia to avoid Germany invading.
Im glad to hear that at least Russian ppl not forget their original leader, just like history never erase someone's merits

 

[John Sansom]

I do know about this stuff. However I have done extensive reading on the subject, and the man of steel image of Stalin as a unitary and all-powerful dictator is not accurate. He was the one who stayed in the upper echelons of what was a very complex system of internal politics.

A few things to keep in mind. Soviet politics were not limited to politicians. Everything was political, because the system rested on client-patron relations that extended into practically every walk of life. The number of people "Stalin killed" and "Hitler killed" are practically impossible to compare, because who counts and who doesn't? All executions carried out when those leaders were in power? That's like claiming that those leaders had control over every aspect of the judicial system, which is rather far from the truth. And if we start to unwind the complex threads of power balance we quickly find out that many of those who were executed were not as innocent as one might think. (Especially in regards to the purges of the armed forces, please read up on what Yakir, Tukhachevsky, and Dybenko were doing during the Civil War, and how they got to their positions of power. Yakir's Chinese mercenaries known for particular brutality are an especially unpleasant anecdote.)

The far more interesting question is what the current political leadership hopes to achieve through this sort of revival. It's clear they can milk Stalinist political capital, but they've already been doing that under a nationalist banner. The liberal protests are likely to be weak, and generally ignorable (as they don't represent a particularly potent political force, in it's heyday Yabloko didn't manage to get even 20% of the votes for example). On the other hand this victory day parade will involve service members from other countries, Britain and France have already received invitations. It will also be a very massive one, even by Putin-era standards. So the inevitable question arises what effect this will have on foreign partners, participants, and public opinion of Russia in general.

Stalin's personal political outlook was driven by an extraordinary paranoia which demanded the creation of "enemies" and then their extirpation. When he became head honcho, those who were aware of his "instability" did everything they could to please him---such as removing the "obstacles" he identitified.

In this instance, Beria proved to be a good "chum", while Molotov was a wiley placator who worked to level the playing field of international diplomacy to Stalin's advantage.

Above all, however, Stalin's suspicious nature emained the driving force in the matrix of the Soviet Union's development but eta buila mnogiye lyet tomy nazad. Let's hope the whole thing blows away. Russia will move on and will make a far, far better ally than an enemy.

 

[Feanor]

Stalin's personal political outlook was driven by an extraordinary paranoia which demanded the creation of "enemies" and then their extirpation. When he became head honcho, those who were aware of his "instability" did everything they could to please him---such as removing the "obstacles" he identitified.

In this instance, Beria proved to be a good "chum", while Molotov was a wiley placator who worked to level the playing field of international diplomacy to Stalin's advantage.

Above all, however, Stalin's suspicious nature emained the driving force in the matrix of the Soviet Union's development but eta buila mnogiye lyet tomy nazad. Let's hope the whole thing blows away. Russia will move on and will make a far, far better ally than an enemy.

Yes of course. How could I have missed that. The explanation for a complex power pyramid, where various actors had varying degrees of influence is a tabloid-level psychoanalysis of Stalin. It's got nothing to do with inertial cultural (and political culture) influences, nothing to do with the institutional engineering of the Soviet system, and naturally nothing to do with the other actors involved (of which I might add there were more then two).

The bricks in the wall of bureaucracy have minds of their own.

 

[John Sansom]

Yes of course. How could I have missed that. The explanation for a complex power pyramid, where various actors had varying degrees of influence is a tabloid-level psychoanalysis of Stalin. It's got nothing to do with inertial cultural (and political culture) influences, nothing to do with the institutional engineering of the Soviet system, and naturally nothing to do with the other actors involved (of which I might add there were more then two).

The bricks in the wall of bureaucracy have minds of their own.

Of course the situation at the top of the Russian directorate under Stalin was a great deal more complicated than just Stalin's paranoia at play while a couple of lapdogs continually sought to ingratiate themselves with their head honcho. Fact is, Stalin had a big lap with room for lots of dogs.

The institutional engineering of the system was "successful" only in that it met Stalin's criteria, or in that he could be sold on an idea that might at first seem to him to be diversionary. It was the Bolsheviks who opened the door to Stalin;s exercise of his own personality....and one has to wonder what might have happened had the Mensheviks won out. Some might suggest the early outcome would have been something akin to what Russia has now. I would firmly state that....I have no idea.


And please be assured, I haven't read a tabloid in years and years, but I did spend a lot of time doing the other thing.

Hey! At least I'm not blathering on about Somali pirates.

 

[Feanor]

I'm not sure why you introduce the word "success" into the discussion when it's contingent on criteria of intent, which we are far from establishing.

Nor was the Soviet system based on an exercise of Stalin's personality.

Nor were the major figures of Soviet internal politics Stalins lap dogs. I'm not sure if the name of Kalinin means anything to you. Or Rokossovskiy for that matter. But they both provide sufficient counter-points to your blanket assertion.

Finally you would do well to consider that the Bolshevisk were far from the singular and monolithic entity you ascribe to them. They did not "open the door" for an exercise of someones personality, but rather represented a diverse set of ideological viewpoints loosely affiliated by their opposition to the counter-revolutionaries, and by their leadership. Fact is, almost as soon as the Civil War ended the Bolsheviks were locked in an ideological struggle with each other. While Stalin may have survived that struggle and come out relatively advantaged from it, the struggle itself never ceased, but rather intensified. As late as 1937 notable leadership positions (command of the 1st Far Eastern Front comes to mind) were held by Trotskyists, the NKVD was in the hands of a shady opportunist, and Stalins loyal ally (lap dog would be your relevant term) Kirov is murdered in cold blood.