How about Typhoon for U.S. Military?

raider1

New Member
I guess this question is hypothetical... Why do we (the U.S.) HAVE to always develop our own aircraft? I think the vast amounts of money being spent on the F35 that probably won't enter service for many years and keeps taking more and more money is a joke.

Why (again hypothetically,) couldn't we buy "off the shelf" aircraft such as the Typhoon, which has already proven superior to the teen series fighters? If jobs are a concern, I'm sure we could work out a license build contract (with Boeing or Northrop, etc.) building them here with jobs saved here... the Navy could use more money on the Super Hornet... Then the JSF program won't feel so rushed, and we would most likely get a better product at a reasonable price...

I just think there's better solutions out there right now than dumping all that money into a program that's been misrun and starts to take on a "money pit" kind of feel...

Military topics are a hobby for me, not a job, this thought has just occurred to me, so go easy on me, here...;)
 
I think a large part of the problem would be how the US voter sees a decision to buy a large number of foreign built aircraft. I don't think it's wrong for US citizens to want something that has a major impact on national security to be built in the US whenever it can.
I'd love the US to make a huge order for Typhoons but I think the order for something like the Harrier is about as good as any order for foreign aircraft is going to get.
 

raider1

New Member
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I don't disagree with "made in the USA," however, I think the time is ripe right now for something like this. The American people are learning more than ever about the government's wasteful spending, and I think would respond positively to spending less money on something that works right now, not 5 years down the road when something is needed now...

Opening factories in the US that employ American workers would be the proverbial "icing on the cake," what with our employment level as it is, and foreign car makers and gun manufacturers have had a lot of success doing the same thing...

Congress hopefully in the near future will finally learn to listen to the people, and not the ones who line their pockets for "special favors" for contracts and such... Wishful thinking, I know,

Buying "off the shelf" tehcnology and working deals to employ American workers are things the average American understands because that is how successful household budgets are run.

Thanks for the input!
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Typhon may be slightly superior to the teen series (and so it should be its a later design), but you need to look at the bigger picture than what is around today. LO technology seems to be accepted as being the way to achieve a massive leap in capability. The F35 was developed to be a second tier under the F-22 to replace a large range of aircraft from the USN, USMC and USAF. The F-22 was developed to keep the qualitative superiority over the then soviet reported developments of their own 5th gen technology aircraft - the tech flowed downhill to the F-35 from there. This tech is not simple or cheap to implement hence the protracted development times.

You also need to look at the fact the F35 is essentially 3 aircraft in one - a carrier version, a VTOL version and a conventional fighter/attack aircraft version. You cannot replace the AV8B's the USMC operate with a Typhoon. Incidentally, this one single basic airframe will be replacing 7(?) different aircraft and will be bought in massive numbers (by todays standards) - the end cost will probably end up being comparable or better than each service developing and operating their own disparate aircraft.

So why do what the US is doing? Because there will be combat advantages over other 4.5gen aircraft, and this design will be more 'future proof' than other 4th gen based designs. The Russians have just flown their LO airframe - and the last thing you want to be equipping your airforce with is something inferior to your possible enemies (not stating the Russians will be the 'enemy' here just that the Russians will probably sell the T50 to other countries). Lastly, the aircraft the F-35 will replace will be A-10 F15, F16, F/A-18, AV-8B, the still born A-12 and in the Australian context the F111. The savings that will result in having a largely common procurement, training, spares and systems development will offset the expense of the development of this airframe.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The answer is rather simple. The JSF is the best deal for the money.

In essence it capitalizes on what you perceive to be benefits of the Typhoon purchase, i.e. outsourcing R&D to European partners, and then producing it domestically. Granted the outsourcing is not as major. But then again the finished product is far more sophisticated then the Typhoon. Marc already addressed the plethora of other reasons.

Truth is many countries do opt that route, mainly when they are unable to develop, or it would cost too much to develop, a domestic alternative. The US doesn't do that because the US has a very large military, and extensive R&D. It can develop and field in large numbers practically any weapon system it needs. Hence why importing anything, other then minor items, components, or (as in a few cases in the 90s) foreign technology for evaluation and possible application.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don't disagree with "made in the USA," however, I think the time is ripe right now for something like this. The American people are learning more than ever about the government's wasteful spending, and I think would respond positively to spending less money on something that works right now, not 5 years down the road when something is needed now...

Opening factories in the US that employ American workers would be the proverbial "icing on the cake," what with our employment level as it is, and foreign car makers and gun manufacturers have had a lot of success doing the same thing...

Congress hopefully in the near future will finally learn to listen to the people, and not the ones who line their pockets for "special favors" for contracts and such... Wishful thinking, I know,

Buying "off the shelf" tehcnology and working deals to employ American workers are things the average American understands because that is how successful household budgets are run.

Thanks for the input!
To be honest, I do not think it would be all that beneficial for the US to engage in significant MOTS (military off the shelf) purchases in general, or for the EF Typhoon specifically.

A MOTS purchase, by the very nature of what it is, is basically an in-production piece of gear or equipment. As such, its capabilities are fixed/known, as are the development and production costs, service & maintenance requirements, etc. These are all very good things to know, particularly for a nation/defence force with a small or otherwise limited budget that could not otherwise afford to develop a needed system on their own due to developmental costs and programme risk.

A MOTS purchase is also limited in that its capabilities are already known/fixed. If a piece of gear needed to be able to perform function n, which was not already in its capabilities set, then a modification programme with developmental costs and programme risk would need to be initiated. This would not only cause the purchase to cease being a MOTS purchase, it would also eliminate two of the major advantages to MOTS purchases.

In the case of the US, which IIRC has a defence budget ~equal to or greater than the defence budgets of all the rest of the world combined, spends more on defence R&D (~13% defence budgetary allocation) than a number of other nations do on their entire defence force... This means that the US is better positioned to develop systems which meet US defence needs, or have entirely new capabilities, than most other countries can.

If the US were to switch to significant MOTS purchases or domestic production of foreign designs, then a significant R&D advantage could be lost. While such actions could reduce the total costs (thus allowing the defence budget to shrink) it could also lead to a reduction in defence capabilities as well as US equipment would no longer be as 'cutting edge'.

Now make no mistake, the US can and should purchase or license-produce foreign defence items when they meet US needs and there are not appropriate US systems to fufil the need. Why reinvent the wheel when someone else has already done so? Three items which immediately come to mind in this situation are; the 120 mm tank cannon used in the M1 Abrams MBT, IIRC this is a licensed copy of a German Rheinmetal tank cannon. Another example would be the 76 mm/62 cal. OTOBreda/Melara naval cannon from Italy which has seen service on USN and USCG vessels. The final example is more historical namely the .30 cal./.30-06 Springfield rifle, the action of which was a licensed modification of a Mauser rifle action Colonel (later President) Theodore Roosevelt encountered in Cuba during the Spanish-American War.

OTOH though, the US should not wait for others to develop equipment to meet current or future defence situations. Using the Typhoon as an example, I will attempt to illustrate what that could mean for the US. When the Typhoon programme initiated, it was to meet a Cold War era 1980's European requirement for an air superiority fighter and reached IOC (Initial Operating Capacity) ~2000 as a 4.5 Gen air superiority fighter. At about the same time the Typhoon programme started, the US launched the ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter) programme in 1986. This programme ultimately resulted in the F-22 Raptor, which reached IOC in 2006 as a 5th Gen fighter with some strike capability. Given what seems to be the capability difference between the two, I would choose the F-22 Raptor over the Typhoon for the air superiority role. The only other current new fighter programme which the US is involved in currently is the JSF programme using F-35A/B/C Lightning II's to meet the multi-role fighter needs of the USAF, USMC and USN with a 5th Gen platform. For multi-role operations I would again choose the various F-35's (once in service) over the Typhoon, even the still to be developed Tranche 3 Typhoons which are supposed to be multi-role. Basically this means that the Typhoon could be used to replace existing legacy aircraft. However, given the role restriction the Typhoon currently has (air superiority only at present) this would mean that the Typhoon could replace USAF F-15C's, which are themselves being replaced by F-22 Raptor's, albeit in smaller numbers.

Some caveats. I am aware that some British Tranche 2 Typhoons were modified to provide them with a multi-role capability, AFAIK however, this was done post-production. There is the possibility that the delivery schedule of the F-35 could slip further behind. This could cause some problems for US air arms as existing airframes use up their flight hours in operations. To that end, small numbers of legacy aircraft (or their more modern variants) could be ordered. This to me seems a more sensible solution to cover any possible service gap, since the aircraft are still in production in the US (no additional costs to toolup), already in US service or similar to types in service (shorter/no additional training/transition time).

While the Typhoon is a good air superiority fighter, and would likely make a good multi-role fighter if developed, I just do not see it fitting into any US OrBat given US fighter needs and programmes.

-Cheers
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I guess this question is hypothetical... Why do we (the U.S.) HAVE to always develop our own aircraft? I think the vast amounts of money being spent on the F35 that probably won't enter service for many years and keeps taking more and more money is a joke.

Why (again hypothetically,) couldn't we buy "off the shelf" aircraft such as the Typhoon, which has already proven superior to the teen series fighters? If jobs are a concern, I'm sure we could work out a license build contract (with Boeing or Northrop, etc.) building them here with jobs saved here... the Navy could use more money on the Super Hornet... Then the JSF program won't feel so rushed, and we would most likely get a better product at a reasonable price...

I just think there's better solutions out there right now than dumping all that money into a program that's been misrun and starts to take on a "money pit" kind of feel...

Military topics are a hobby for me, not a job, this thought has just occurred to me, so go easy on me, here...;)
Don't the Coast Guard's H-65's or the Army's UH-72 count? Token examples that show that this has been done, for a very long time.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Don't the Coast Guard's H-65's or the Army's UH-72 count? Token examples that show that this has been done, for a very long time.
Those two examples completely slipped my mine. Also they are complete systems while the examples I had used were weapon systems that were part of a larger piece of equipment.

Incidentally, another example of an overseas order/licensed production would be the EH101 version VIP helicopter to replace the current Sikorsky Presidential helicopters/Marine One. As a side note, that programme is a good example of a bloated, money-pit type programme. IIRC the programme cost has doubled from the originally quoted price, which was why LockMart/AW won the contract instead of the Sikorsky offer in the first place. In other words, ordering any new system/variant on equipment has the risk programme failiure and/or cost creep.

-Cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
Now make no mistake, the US can and should purchase or license-produce foreign defence items when they meet US needs and there are not appropriate US systems to fufil the need. Why reinvent the wheel when someone else has already done so? Three items which immediately come to mind in this situation are; the 120 mm tank cannon used in the M1 Abrams MBT, IIRC this is a licensed copy of a German Rheinmetal tank cannon. Another example would be the 76 mm/62 cal. OTOBreda/Melara naval cannon from Italy which has seen service on USN and USCG vessels. The final example is more historical namely the .30 cal./.30-06 Springfield rifle, the action of which was a licensed modification of a Mauser rifle action Colonel (later President) Theodore Roosevelt encountered in Cuba during the Spanish-American War....

-Cheers
The British L7 105mm gun used in upgraded M48s, the M60, & the early M1 should certainly get a mention in there.

There are, as already mentioned, many others, e.g. the M777 howitzer, the Seaspray 7500E radar for USCG HC-130H, & the Vixen 500E radar to replace old F-16 radars in U.S. Customs and Border Protection aircraft.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It's always fun to identify various nations contributions: how about the ubiquitous ejection seats from Martin-Baker: http://www.martin-baker.co.uk/home.aspx; or the Bofors 57mm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_57_mm_gun; the radars for the two LCS contenders: EADS TRS-3D/Sea Giraffe 3D (may even change to the Thales NL Smart IIs; while we're at it, consoles and decoy systems for LCS from Terma :)D)...

Diamond Back (MBDA?) forming the basis for the SDB...
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's always fun to identify various nations contributions: how about the ubiquitous ejection seats from Martin-Baker: http://www.martin-baker.co.uk/home.aspx; or the Bofors 57mm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_57_mm_gun; the radars for the two LCS contenders: EADS TRS-3D/Sea Giraffe 3D (may even change to the Thales NL Smart IIs; while we're at it, consoles and decoy systems for LCS from Terma :)D)...

Diamond Back (MBDA?) forming the basis for the SDB...
I was actually thinking about the Martin Baker seats earlier, great minds think alike! :)

Don't forget about the Marine Corps adoption of the AV8A Harrier and subsequent MD license built AV8B's, the Carl Gustav, H&K MP 5's and 10's were in use by various SF for years, the M9 Baretta..... the M1 Abrams owes much of it's success to using British Chobham armor.

These are just tiny few examples that leap to mind when discussing the use of non-US designs/systems.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was actually thinking about the Martin Baker seats earlier, great minds think alike! :)

Don't forget about the Marine Corps adoption of the AV8A Harrier and subsequent MD license built AV8B's, the Carl Gustav, H&K MP 5's and 10's were in use by various SF for years, the M9 Baretta..... the M1 Abrams owes much of it's success to using British Chobham armor.

These are just tiny few examples that leap to mind when discussing the use of non-US designs/systems.
Or the Nulka decoy, which always brings out a little bit of national pride in me :)
 

Spetsznaz

New Member
This may seem unimportant, but there are is also the pride, America purchasing foreign fighters IN LARGE NUMBERS, plus there has been so much money put in the JSF I think the United states needs to stick to it, perhaps in the future i don't know?

The Typhoon cannot be said to be Superior than the F-15 and MAYBE the F-18, some countries like Spain who rely a lot on the Typhoon as the main fighter, there pilots could have better performance records with the typhoon, than some US pilots in the teen series

Hope my point is not to vague...
 
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Bluesaphirro

New Member
I guess this question is hypothetical... Why do we (the U.S.) HAVE to always develop our own aircraft? I think the vast amounts of money being spent on the F35 that probably won't enter service for many years and keeps taking more and more money is a joke.

Why (again hypothetically,) couldn't we buy "off the shelf" aircraft such as the Typhoon, which has already proven superior to the teen series fighters? If jobs are a concern, I'm sure we could work out a license build contract (with Boeing or Northrop, etc.) building them here with jobs saved here... the Navy could use more money on the Super Hornet... Then the JSF program won't feel so rushed, and we would most likely get a better product at a reasonable price...

I just think there's better solutions out there right now than dumping all that money into a program that's been misrun and starts to take on a "money pit" kind of feel...

Military topics are a hobby for me, not a job, this thought has just occurred to me, so go easy on me, here...;)
I Think it is a great idea that somehow the American govenrment should consider an " Off the Shelf " buy of the Euro-Fighter Typhoon it would definitely save the American tax's payers a lot of money for that, but then again given the American people so much pride on their American made products is a factor.. :cool:
 

Kilo 2-3

New Member
I Think it is a great idea that somehow the American govenrment should consider an " Off the Shelf " buy of the Euro-Fighter Typhoon it would definitely save the American tax's payers a lot of money for that, but then again given the American people so much pride on their American made products is a factor.. :cool:
Americans tend to buy American militarily for far more reasons that just pride, which admittedly is one factor.

US products tend to better meet US military, poltical, and physical needs better than foreign ones, and hence they tend to be better fits. For example, the Typhoon is notoriously short-legged. For a European fighter this a minor issue given Europe's relatively small geogprahic size, but for the US, a nation with a large amount of NORAD space and a need for strategic/long tacticaal reach in many of its assets, range is crucial.

An off-the-shelf buy also wouldn't really save that much. Firstly, the US would need to buy more expensive later Tranches of the Typhoon, train and maintainers crews on the jet, integrate a host of US weapons systems and build a new production line in the US, while paying a manufacturer to build the thing under license.

And and the end of the day, it would still be less-capable than the F-35, meaning that the armed forces might need to purchase more tankers, Growlers, etc. to support it, as well as buying more Super Hornets to replace the aging legacy Hornets the F-35C was supposed to replace.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Even if the US does buy a foreign design it often extensively modifies it for its own use. When the USAF bought the design for the Canberra bomber they started to extensively modify it to meet USAF requirements and needs.

It's always fun to identify various nations contributions: how about the ubiquitous ejection seats from Martin-Baker: http://www.martin-baker.co.uk/home.aspx; or the Bofors 57mm: Bofors 57 mm gun; - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the radars for the two LCS contenders: EADS TRS-3D/Sea Giraffe 3D (may even change to the Thales NL Smart IIs; while we're at it, consoles and decoy systems for LCS from Terma :)D)...

Diamond Back (MBDA?) forming the basis for the SDB...
I've bee on LCS-1 and there is a lot of foreign equipment on the ship. Italian diesels, Spanish power equipment are the examples that leap immediately to my mind.
 
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