Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[agc33e]

:dance2I have to point out about the lhd munition lifts, from the pictures i can see like the jets munition lift is in the forward part of the ship, next to the forward big lift, closer to the point of launching the jets with a shorter run, closer than the back lift, more associated with the helos, so i suppose in this zone they should be another munition lift thought more for the helos, closer to them than the one forward, in fact the links i pasted before, they say various lifts..
Although looking a bit better i dont find a second lift in the back part...anyway they can use the 20 something tonnes lifts..

jeje

 

[ThePuss]

:dance2I have to point out about the lhd munition lifts, from the pictures i can see like the jets munition lift is in the forward part of the ship, next to the forward big lift, closer to the point of launching the jets with a shorter run, closer than the back lift, more associated with the helos, so i suppose in this zone they should be another munition lift thought more for the helos, closer to them than the one forward, in fact the links i pasted before, they say various lifts..
Although looking a bit better i dont find a second lift in the back part...anyway they can use the 20 something tonnes lifts..

jeje

Nope, Think about it, what is bellow the aft end of the flight deck ......The Well Deck. LHDs will have Two Aircraft lifts, One Cargo lift, One Ammo lift, One Hospital lift, One VIP lift and a couple of Provision lifts (and Dumb waiters if you count them).

 

[agc33e]

Yes i know.. well i dont understand some words ..., but in case you need it maybe you can move the missiles thorugh the heavy weight deck here use the internal heavy deck crane (substitute of rotary platform), then using the cargo lift to the light load deck and then the aircraft lift, the point i dont know where is the ammo warehouse but maybe you can fill it not using the ammo lift...jeje, but as you say there is one ammo lift so i suppose is the one next to the forward aircraft lift, because i see a rectangular shape, appropiate for heavy missiles etc

Outside the intentions or practical plans of the ran, allow to consider this,
at the end, simulation of conflicts, engagements, becomes a matter of computing, mathematics, number of vectors, with correspondings capacities, adding different type of vectors, despite only a few, multiplies the complexity of the equation for the enemy to calcule a prudent display of their vectors. You can imagine a radar able to track at 600 kms, able to move at 50 kph, with one jet they can shot hostile antisubmarine helicopters that were thinking they were safe in their fleet radar umbrella, then own antisubmarine helos combined with own submarines can force the hostile fleet to move backwards and culminate the job with a one way jet flight launching at 2500 kms off the lhd a 300 kms range precission missile to destroy hostile radar facilities inland or coast.:drunk1 , what could happen if the hostile has a carrier? Then guerrilla and raaf.

But inside the ran practical plans, more deployment and coastal-inland control than fleet task, are we going to use a tomahawk when we can use a much cheaper bomb, or using a cell of the mlk launncher instead a fourth of a square meter of surface and half meter in height in an ammo warehouse. the speed and fuel cost of a jet from lhd to make a job in a police-militar task asked in the polynesia compared to the cost of raaf jet tanked in air, or the speed range of a tiger, so there are practical reasons inside the scope of ran planned activities.

But i understand ran, as i would not ask the ran to have a differente concept to the one generally associated to jets capabilities, by all the navies, that is or at least a squadron or nothing, for making the effort for a few.

Also it is the seed of a possible resource whenever is convenient or pleasurent, we have to keep people entertained, we should have the aim of protect the earth from hostile ufos etc, or at least some know-how.

Cheers.

 

[LancasterBomber]

Also it is the seed of a possible resource whenever is convenient or pleasurent, we have to keep people entertained, we should have the aim of protect the earth from hostile ufos etc, or at least some know-how.

Cheers.

I can see all those words are in english but when I add them all together its got me buggered what you are on about!

 

[agc33e]

Some pics inside the f100 alvaro de bazan, you can see them playing in net in the ship´s cibercoffe:

 

[agc33e]

Let me copy some statements from other forums:

"los estudios de la OTAN, que estan en los enlaces anteriores, demuestran que para que un ataque cause preocupacion a un grupo de combate protegido por F100 se necesitan no menos de 50 aviones con personal entrenado especificamente"
-"Studies from the nato show that for an attack makes worry to a combat gruop protected by an f100 they need at least 50 jets with specifically training".

I suppose with the 48 cells and in each a quad pack of essm, and the sm2´s, etc, give for few waves of hostile jets..

" la armada argentina, con solo 5 aviones y 5 misiles hundieron dos buques y dejaron fuera de combate otro."
-"the argetinian "navy", with just 5 jets and 5 missiles sunked two ships and out of combat other".

Cheers.

 

[Marc 1]

Let me copy some statements from other forums:

"los estudios de la OTAN, que estan en los enlaces anteriores, demuestran que para que un ataque cause preocupacion a un grupo de combate protegido por F100 se necesitan no menos de 50 aviones con personal entrenado especificamente"
-"Studies from the nato show that for an attack makes worry to a combat gruop protected by an f100 they need at least 50 jets with specifically training".

I suppose with the 48 cells and in each a quad pack of essm, and the sm2´s, etc, give for few waves of hostile jets..

" la armada argentina, con solo 5 aviones y 5 misiles hundieron dos buques y dejaron fuera de combate otro."
-"the argetinian "navy", with just 5 jets and 5 missiles sunked two ships and out of combat other".

Cheers.

If you are referring to the Falklands conflict, the poms lost 6 ships. And go do some reading and tell us how many sorties the Argentinians had to make to sink those ships and how many aircraft they lost in the process.

 

[OpinionNoted]

Let me copy some statements from other forums:

"los estudios de la OTAN, que estan en los enlaces anteriores, demuestran que para que un ataque cause preocupacion a un grupo de combate protegido por F100 se necesitan no menos de 50 aviones con personal entrenado especificamente"
-"Studies from the nato show that for an attack makes worry to a combat gruop protected by an f100 they need at least 50 jets with specifically training".

I suppose with the 48 cells and in each a quad pack of essm, and the sm2´s, etc, give for few waves of hostile jets..

" la armada argentina, con solo 5 aviones y 5 misiles hundieron dos buques y dejaron fuera de combate otro."
-"the argetinian "navy", with just 5 jets and 5 missiles sunked two ships and out of combat other".

Cheers.

What are we talking about with 50 jets?

2 missiles per jet for a total of 100,minimum.

I dont think F100 or its flock will be lasting to long.

Halve the attack and they will probably be dead too.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The F-100 looks very modern inside. Hopefully by the time the Hobarts are built they will be modernised for the times. The computer stations look like they could fit 27" widescreens LCD's on them. Those 19" 4:3 LCD look small.

A nice setup up from the FFG's. I do hear how spacious the F-100's are inside. I walked though the Vampire last year, man its a long way since the RAN had OPEN bridges!

 

[spoz]

The F-100 looks very modern inside. Hopefully by the time the Hobarts are built they will be modernised for the times. The computer stations look like they could fit 27" widescreens LCD's on them. Those 19" 4:3 LCD look small.

A nice setup up from the FFG's. I do hear how spacious the F-100's are inside. I walked though the Vampire last year, man its a long way since the RAN had OPEN bridges!

Not for some of us, it isn't. Lots of us still around who had the privilege. And Vamps doesn't have an real open bridge; they enclosed it during the half life refit in about 1970. Can't remember whether they enclosed Ducky's when they made her into a training ship (although there will be somebody out there who does); if they did then the last escort sized ship with an open bridge would probably have been 'ZAC II.

And if you want to feel divorced from the present day, 'ZAC had hammocks and no cafeteria. You collected you scran from the galley by the funnel and ate it in your messdeck, provided of course you didn't lose it over the side on the way aft if you happened to be in 3M or one of the other mess decks down the back end. Can't remember if the ship had a TV; maybe in the wardroom but I don't think so. The internal comms were basic (at the same time Sydney had a manually connected telephone switchboard), and the only entertainment was the SRE.

Still that was also the time before OH&S; you went on watch wearing a pair of shorts and sandals, then spent some time in the lagging party or chipping the red lead. Those were the days.

 

[agc33e]

In 48 cells, some sm2 have a range of 200 kms +-, and classified exact speed, so the point of no return to hostile jets, can be at 100 kms for example from the f100 (i know there are horizon conditions etc), so hostile jets should launch their antiship missiles in that range, we imagine 2 missile per jet, so 100 missiles, we can have in 48 cells times 4= 192 essm against them, plus the ciws or machine guns and cannon (that can asing targets using the spy radar), so in one f100 they have for 2 waves of 50 jets with 2 antiship missile that are worth probably +1000000 dollars...
The thing changes when you can launch some jets, hostile jets probably be more careful to enter in what zone to launch a missile..for example recently one eurofighter shooted 4 f15, i suppose in the awareness space of the eurofighter...

In the f100:
"• Sistemas de entretenimiento de radio y televisión (15 TV), con capacidad para distribuir señales de radio y televisión, de tierra y de satélite a los espacios de habilitación y descanso en el buque."
-"entertainment radio and tv (15 tv) systems, with capacity for distribute radio and tv signals, land bradcasted or satellite, to the living and resting spaces of the ship".

Actually the photos i pasted before they werent from the cibercafe of the f100, it was actually the combat and information centre doing some exercises in other wordls..jeje:

 

[swerve]

Let me copy some statements from other forums:
" la armada argentina, con solo 5 aviones y 5 misiles hundieron dos buques y dejaron fuera de combate otro."
-"the argetinian "navy", with just 5 jets and 5 missiles sunked two ships and out of combat other".

Cheers.

Factually incorrect.
18 jets of the Argentinean naval air arm were engaged in action, of which 5 were lost. The 5 Exocet missiles fired by some of those aircraft sank two ships, but did not hit or damage any others. HMS Glamorgan was damaged by a land-based Exocet.

About 100 Argentinean air force jets also took part in the war, of which 35 were lost in action, & Argentina also lost about 10 helicopters & 20 prop-driven aircraft.

Over 430 attack sorties were flown from the Argentinean mainland.

 

[agc33e]

I past a lateral plane of the ship, useful:

 

[spoz]

Actually the photos i pasted before they werent from the cibercafe of the f100, it was actually the combat and information centre doing some exercises in other wordls..jeje:

No it's not the CIC. Looks like the library/classroom on 2 deck.

 

[OpinionNoted]

In 48 cells, some sm2 have a range of 200 kms +-, and classified exact speed, so the point of no return to hostile jets, can be at 100 kms for example from the f100 (i know there are horizon conditions etc), so hostile jets should launch their antiship missiles in that range, we imagine 2 missile per jet, so 100 missiles, we can have in 48 cells times 4= 192 essm against them, plus the ciws or machine guns and cannon (that can asing targets using the spy radar), so in one f100 they have for 2 waves of 50 jets with 2 antiship missile that are worth probably +1000000 dollars...
The thing changes when you can launch some jets, hostile jets probably be more careful to enter in what zone to launch a missile..for example recently one eurofighter shooted 4 f15, i suppose in the awareness space of the eurofighter...

In the f100:
"• Sistemas de entretenimiento de radio y televisión (15 TV), con capacidad para distribuir señales de radio y televisión, de tierra y de satélite a los espacios de habilitación y descanso en el buque."
-"entertainment radio and tv (15 tv) systems, with capacity for distribute radio and tv signals, land bradcasted or satellite, to the living and resting spaces of the ship".

Actually the photos i pasted before they werent from the cibercafe of the f100, it was actually the combat and information centre doing some exercises in other wordls..jeje:

I guess it comes down to what type of missile,what range it has,what height it was fired at,was defensive ship fire directed from ship born sensors or elsewhere,say an awac.

post note:F100 defending the fleet as the main sensor/ordanance platform would be more than hard pressed to defend against 50 jets firing 100 missiles ecspecially supersonic 100klm+missiles.
F100 and fleet firepower directed by awacs would change the story,to what end i cannot know.

 

[Bonza]

I guess it comes down to what type of missile,what range it has,what height it was fired at,was defensive ship fire directed from ship born sensors or elsewhere,say an awac.

post note:F100 defending the fleet as the main sensor/ordanance platform would be more than hard pressed to defend against 50 jets firing 100 missiles ecspecially supersonic 100klm+missiles.
F100 and fleet firepower directed by awacs would change the story,to what end i cannot know.

In what scenario is a lone F100 likely to face off against fifty aircraft, all equipped with supersonic long-range anti-ship missiles?

Where are the fleet's supporting assets? If they are not present, why did mission planners think it permissible to send high value assets into an area without appropriate support and without first attaining air superiority?

I understand you're just trying to clarify something that was said, but think about how relevant a point it is.

If the fleet has AWACs support, it makes me wonder where its own air cover is. Would you extend your fleet outside the range of your own air power, knowing the enemy has substantial air assets with AShM capability? And if you had to do so, would you do it under the protection of a single air-defence ship?

If the aircraft are land-based, that very likely means static basing, and so the ranges of aircraft operating from said bases will be factored into mission planning for the fleet (to say nothing of the "preparation" such bases would potentially receive). If the aircraft are carrier based and there's fifty of them in the air at once, you're probably fighting the United States, and thus have bigger problems than the type of warship you've selected.

Remember too that in waging such an air offensive, you're very likely going to lose planes. And it's not just a matter of the fighters and the ship lobbing missiles at one another until someone falls over. You'd have to know what was considered an acceptable loss rate for whoever is mounting the attack, because remember it is not the sole purpose of the aircraft to conduct this one mission. Future sorties will depend on the aircraft surviving and being available, so if the F100 poses a credible enough threat that it is determined a direct attack would result in unacceptable casualties, then it has done its job by acting as a deterrent, not just a mobile missile launcher. For the vast majority of nations, fifty aircraft represent a staggering investment and one not easily replaced.

 

[OpinionNoted]

In what scenario is a lone F100 likely to face off against fifty aircraft, all equipped with supersonic long-range anti-ship missiles?

Where are the fleet's supporting assets? If they are not present, why did mission planners think it permissible to send high value assets into an area without appropriate support and without first attaining air superiority?

I understand you're just trying to clarify something that was said, but think about how relevant a point it is.

If the fleet has AWACs support, it makes me wonder where its own air cover is. Would you extend your fleet outside the range of your own air power, knowing the enemy has substantial air assets with AShM capability? And if you had to do so, would you do it under the protection of a single air-defence ship?

If the aircraft are land-based, that very likely means static basing, and so the ranges of aircraft operating from said bases will be factored into mission planning for the fleet (to say nothing of the "preparation" such bases would potentially receive). If the aircraft are carrier based and there's fifty of them in the air at once, you're probably fighting the United States, and thus have bigger problems than the type of warship you've selected.

Remember too that in waging such an air offensive, you're very likely going to lose planes. And it's not just a matter of the fighters and the ship lobbing missiles at one another until someone falls over. You'd have to know what was considered an acceptable loss rate for whoever is mounting the attack, because remember it is not the sole purpose of the aircraft to conduct this one mission. Future sorties will depend on the aircraft surviving and being available, so if the F100 poses a credible enough threat that it is determined a direct attack would result in unacceptable casualties, then it has done its job by acting as a deterrent, not just a mobile missile launcher. For the vast majority of nations, fifty aircraft represent a staggering investment and one not easily replaced.

yes couldnt agree more..F100 and fleet would be operating in a multi service umbrella in more cases than not...i was just replying in regards to a F100 as the main asset in defending a fleet as far as agc33e post regarding natos summation that 50 jets would be needed to create a worry for F100 and co.

 

[agc33e]

The F-100 looks very modern inside. Hopefully by the time the Hobarts are built they will be modernised for the times. The computer stations look like they could fit 27" widescreens LCD's on them. Those 19" 4:3 LCD look small.

A nice setup up from the FFG's. I do hear how spacious the F-100's are inside. I walked though the Vampire last year, man its a long way since the RAN had OPEN bridges!

-27´´ !! wow, i havent one like that even at home, i use my own 50 ´´ plasma tv screen, maybe for the internal championship they can use the aegis screens, i am not sure if the screens are even 19´´.... the evolution with screens has been fast, in a few years increase the size and quality.

The thing is that you can follow satelilte channels for watching the sports, i would like to have fireplaces for burging wood, it would give a really "home" sensation.:idea2

Cheers.

 

[agc33e]

Factually incorrect.
18 jets of the Argentinean naval air arm were engaged in action, of which 5 were lost. The 5 Exocet missiles fired by some of those aircraft sank two ships, but did not hit or damage any others. HMS Glamorgan was damaged by a land-based Exocet.

About 100 Argentinean air force jets also took part in the war, of which 35 were lost in action, & Argentina also lost about 10 helicopters & 20 prop-driven aircraft.

Over 430 attack sorties were flown from the Argentinean mainland.

-Ok, i dont know about it, i pasted as an example of what can a jet do, sink ships, not necessarily well defended.

Thanks.

Mod edit: So, getting back to the Royal AUSTRALIAN Navy....

 

[agc33e]

It is a fact t that ageis system is capable, since some years ago (permanent evolution), that can track up to 100 different targets and launch 48 cells in less than 2 minutes, probably that´s because the nato studies say that "with 50 jets", because times 2 is 100 missiles....jeje:smoker but here begin the worries (after second wave), and:
Also a ciws system might be more useful than a sam system, because this is finite, while the ciws can have more munition and have a great accuracy and agility, but before that you can try to calibrate the cannon to shot big bullets with a range of 20 somenting kilometres, using the spy or the others...

You can be in war with usa or with china, that had been interested in similar missiles to a harpoon, i think, own development? Or with anyone that has 50 jets, to put a fleet in the nose-etc.. of someone it can be useful to launch some tactoms. Imagine a conflict for taiwan ii think it is...

Cheers.