Current state of Russian Air Force?

[StevoJH]

Feanor, could the smaller size of the Mig 29K compared to the Su33 be a factor in its selection? The smaller size could make it more useful as a carrier aircraft compared to the Su 33?

Mig 29 is comparable in MTOW to the F/A 18A and C, whereas the Su 33 is comparable in MTOW to the F14D. The Mig also has a higher thrust/weight, which is probably an advantage for trying to get off a carrier deck.

 

[Feanor]

I heard no mention of how many can fit. We operate 24 Su-33s, but only 12 can fit on the Kuznetsov at one time. 24 MiG-29Ks will be bought, but how many will operate from the carrier at once remains to be seen. I also suspect that the MiG-29KUB will be bought to replace the Su-25UTGs as trainers for carrier aviation.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Feanor we have only 19 Su-33

 

[Feanor]

Feanor we have only 19 Su-33

Really? I always heard корабельный авиаполк. An air regiment is 24 fighters, two squadrons of 12. I think I may have assumed that this translated into 24 Su-33s. Though, I think I saw the number 24 somewhere. I'll look around. Do you have any sources?

EDIT: Nevermind, you're right. Apparently 24 is the required size, but we currently have 19.

 

[SkolZkiy]

it was built 24 but now there are only 19 of them - crashes and so on

 

[Toptob]

Could it also be that with the Mig-29K's of India, there are a lot more of them out there, so spares, logistics, maintenance and training will be cheaper? It could also be to give confidence to the Indians, seeing they bought even more Mig29-K's.

Does any of you know if the RuNav has planned any new aircraft carriers? And what is the state of your current one?

My last question is; if there is going to be a replacement or major update for the SU-25 in the future? I really like this AC and I think it deserves an upgrade at least.

[edit]
Ow BTW I looked up Voronezh on google earth. Are those mig-23's that are stationed there ??

 

[Feanor]

The VMF (RuN) does plan in the long run to have new A/Cs, but that's many years away. The Admiral Kuznetsov currently is operational, has been modernized, and has made several major voyages recently proving that it can still get around. Otherwise little is known.

The Su-25 is currently being upgraded to the Su-25SM standard, and new Su-25s are supposed to be getting built soon.

As for Voronezh, there is an aircraft plant there, but I don't know of any actual VVS unit stationed near Voronezh, other then the former 455th BAP flying Su-24M. No MiG-23s are currently active. In addition there are major weapon storage facilities near Voronezh. I'm not sure what you saw on google earth (links would be nice ) but I would guess that if you did see MiG-23s, they were retired ones in storage on some airfield.

 

[SkolZkiy]

By the way it is also planned to produce deep modernization of Su-25 - Su25T or Su-39.
It was said that a training centre for NAVY would be built near Astrakhan in the South of Russia in 2011-12

 

[Bonza]

As for Voronezh, there is an aircraft plant there, but I don't know of any actual VVS unit stationed near Voronezh, other then the former 455th BAP flying Su-24M. No MiG-23s are currently active. In addition there are major weapon storage facilities near Voronezh. I'm not sure what you saw on google earth (links would be nice ) but I would guess that if you did see MiG-23s, they were retired ones in storage on some airfield.

Maybe they were the Su-24 you mentioned. Wouldn't be too difficult to confuse the two on a satellite photo would it?

 

[Feanor]

Possible. I'm not sure what the current situation with the 455th BAP is, whether it's part of some new airbase based there, or what.... so it might not even be there anymore.

 

[baranek]

Su-27SM crash near Dzemgi airfield. Pilot is killed. Russia suspends flights of su-27.
ASN Aircraft accident 14-JAN-2010 Sukhoi Su-27SM Flanker-B Mod. 1 86 red
Russia suspends flights of Su-27 fighters after crash | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

 

[Feanor]

They found the plaane, the black box, and the pilot. Apparently the crash was fatal. I suspect the issue is again with poorly trained pilots transitioning to new planes, and getting their flight hours upgraded.

This is a typical situation imo. A unit that averages like 20-30 hours annually (which really is concentrated in the form of 60-70 hours of a few senior pilots, and almost nothing for the rest) gets modernized or just repairs done, and is transferred to high priority status, getting around 100 hours annually average. And the pilots of course have little experience (there are airforce captains that haven't flown since they graduated schooling), and the maintenance crews are out of experience. The result is accidents.

 

[Vzlet]

They found the plaane, the black box, and the pilot. Apparently the crash was fatal. I suspect the issue is again with poorly trained pilots transitioning to new planes, and getting their flight hours upgraded.

This is a typical situation imo. A unit that averages like 20-30 hours annually (which really is concentrated in the form of 60-70 hours of a few senior pilots, and almost nothing for the rest) gets modernized or just repairs done, and is transferred to high priority status, getting around 100 hours annually average. And the pilots of course have little experience (there are airforce captains that haven't flown since they graduated schooling), and the maintenance crews are out of experience. The result is accidents.

I don't think that these are fair conclusions to draw. Remember that this is only the first crash of a Su-27SM in the RFAF. Contrast that with two crashes which have already happened with the F-22 (plus one crash of the YF-22).

 

[Feanor]

You don't think that it's likely for crashes to become more common as flight hours are rapidly increased for units that are brought up to priority status? The fact that this is an SM just makes the point all that more clear. I don't know which units received the SMs and in what order they received it in, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this is a unit that has received their new fighters in the last 2 years.

 

[T.C.P]

Feanor, could the smaller size of the Mig 29K compared to the Su33 be a factor in its selection? The smaller size could make it more useful as a carrier aircraft compared to the Su 33?

Mig 29 is comparable in MTOW to the F/A 18A and C, whereas the Su 33 is comparable in MTOW to the F14D. The Mig also has a higher thrust/weight, which is probably an advantage for trying to get off a carrier deck.

the Mig-29k has been chosen for financial reasons. at first the russian navy had planned to order additional Su-33 as they hoped China would order these air craft too. Since China wont probanly order the Su-33, reopening the Su-33 lines for a small order for the russian naval aviation is not economial. thats why russia chose the Mig-29k, with India ordering 24 aircraft( as well as 40 optional) the cost of the Mig-29K per air craft is significantly smaller than the unit cost of the Su-33

 

[Feanor]

India ordered 16, with another 29 optional (an option they are going to be using as reports indicate right now). Combined with the 24 AVMF order, this would give MiG-29K a production run of 69 units. Additionally it has significant commonality with the MiG-35, which is inteded for the VVS, as well as being a contender in the MMRCA. So it made much more sense.

By the way the Su-33s currently in service have undergone life-extension and upgrades. What exactly is unspecified, but I'm guessing it's something like the SM package, except for Su-33.

 

[Vzlet]

You don't think that it's likely for crashes to become more common as flight hours are rapidly increased for units that are brought up to priority status? The fact that this is an SM just makes the point all that more clear. I don't know which units received the SMs and in what order they received it in, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this is a unit that has received their new fighters in the last 2 years.

I think you are misrepresenting the facts. By all accounts this was a very experienced pilot. I believe that when you consider the relative infrequency of accidents in the Russian AF this has to be viewed as an anomaly and not a symptom of a systemic problem.

 

[Feanor]

I think you are misrepresenting the facts. By all accounts this was a very experienced pilot. I believe that when you consider the relative infrequency of accidents in the Russian AF this has to be viewed as an anomaly and not a symptom of a systemic problem.

I would be very interested to see those accounts.

 

[Vzlet]

I would be very interested to see those accounts.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hKhd3t_KmU&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

If you understand Russian, in this interview with the pilot of the crashed Su-27SM explains that he started working with that airframe in 2006.


Ïîèñêîâèêè íàøëè òåëî ïèëîòà Ñó-27, ðàçáèâøåãîñÿ ïîä Êîìñîìîëüñêîì-íà-Àìóðå // KP.RU

Also cites MoD records or sources that the pilot as very experienced, and brings up the valid point that this accident highlighted the flaws (once again) not of the Russian Federation Air Force flight capabilities, but the shortfalls of the search and rescue system. The aircraft crashed only 20km from its home base and yet it took them 3 days to find the crash site!!!

 

[Feanor]

I do speak Russian, thank you for the links. The "характеризация" provided by the MoD is typical. I mean would they ever say "the pilot was inexperienced"? I mean I suppose they would, if they had a PR disaster and needed someone to blame, like the accident in Ukraine. The issues with the SaR system being practically worthless are notable. However that has nothing to do with the reasons for the crash. Basically you're saying we should take the MoD's word that the pilot was experienced and that the crash isn't related to VVS flight training issues. I would respectfully disagree.