Indian Army News and Discussion

Which Attack Helicopter Should Indian Army opt for


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dragonfire

New Member
India really needs to stick to the weapons Russia is Selling to them, mixing up other helicopters such as the Apache spells trouble

But hey thats what I think
Since you have just joined, Welcome to DT. Please read the forum rules and i would suggest that if you are about to post on any topic run a search on the forum to understand the current discussion on the same here.

The IAF has not finalised the attack helo it is going to purchase yet. The Mil Mi-28 and Ka-52 are also in the race, however this is an Indian Army thread so if you have further inputs pls post them in the IAF thread. Because the helos will be operated by the IAF and not the IA
 

dragonfire

New Member
Which one is better is highly debatable.
Yeah theres a sandtrap alrite :)

However India will operate ~1600 T-90S, and ~140 Arjuns.
I thought apart from the 124 ordered recently there already was about 50 Arjuns with the IA / or was it a regiment size

What i would really like to see though is a sizable number of IFVs and APCs. IA has about 900-1000 BMP II s and virtualy no other IFV or APC currently which is a very very low number
 

kay_man

New Member
Since you have just joined, Welcome to DT. Please read the forum rules and i would suggest that if you are about to post on any topic run a search on the forum to understand the current discussion on the same here.

The IAF has not finalised the attack helo it is going to purchase yet. The Mil Mi-28 and Ka-52 are also in the race, however this is an Indian Army thread so if you have further inputs pls post them in the IAF thread. Because the helos will be operated by the IAF and not the IA
The las i heard the IA had also requested for a dedicated attack helo squadrons ( army aviation ) and as far as i can remember the requested was accepted by Mod.
Today the army aviation has to make do with armed Mi-17s. But that'll change soon.
Most likely option is the weaponised Dhruv and maybe the LCH.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Yeah theres a sandtrap alrite :)



I thought apart from the 124 ordered recently there already was about 50 Arjuns with the IA / or was it a regiment size

What i would really like to see though is a sizable number of IFVs and APCs. IA has about 900-1000 BMP II s and virtualy no other IFV or APC currently which is a very very low number
India can procure the battle proven BTR-80 as its new APC or maybe the new BTR-90::ninja:
 

dragonfire

New Member
The las i heard the IA had also requested for a dedicated attack helo squadrons ( army aviation ) and as far as i can remember the requested was accepted by Mod.
Today the army aviation has to make do with armed Mi-17s. But that'll change soon.
Most likely option is the weaponised Dhruv and maybe the LCH.
But the heavy attack helos being procured is for the IAF.

As for the Army Aviation wing - i am a big supporter of all sorts of attack helos for it, not just LCH, but the heavy attack helos also. The role of helos in the anti-armour role is too great for the Army not to have its own attack helos not just armed Mi-17s

Hmmm seems like deja vu i feel i have written the exact same thing before :)
 

dragonfire

New Member
ST Kinetics to start Gun Trials in a month

According to a Defense News article, "India To Let Singapore Technologies Join Howitzer Trials" and the Deccan Chronicle article quoted below:


This means that Singapore artillery technology has a track record of being sold abroad and the Singapore based technology can be the basis for future Indian artillery exports to other countries once your own domestic industry matures. IMO, there is really very little risk as Singapore artillery conducts exercises in India and also in NZ, ensuring that these Singapore designed guns are tested in a variety of conditions (including in India). .
ST Kinetics is going to begin the trials of their howtizers for the IA in a months time as per an official with the company


ST Kinetics says to begin India gun trials soon


NEW DELHI (Reuters) - ST Kinetics, an arm of Singapore Technologies Engineering, said it will begin India trials of its 155 MM Towed Howitzer guns for the army in a month.

"There are two programmes, towed guns and light guns," Patrick Choy, chief marketing officer of ST Kinetics told reporters.

Singapore Technologies is the world's largest aircraft repair firm.

India is upgrading its largely Soviet-era arsenal to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China with a series of acquisitions.

The Indian army needs new weapons urgently as the Bofors Howitzers were its last major acquisition, made back in 1986.

India is now seeking heavy-lift helicopters, submarines, ships and artillery for its army, valued at millions of dollars, a KPMG report said this week

ST Kinetics says to begin India gun trials soon | Business News | Reuters
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
ST Kinetics is going to begin the trials of their howtizers for the IA in a months time as per an official with the company
Thanks for the update. ST Kinetics issued a press release and Brigadier-General (Retired) Patrick Choy, the chief marketing officer of ST Kinetics was reported to have said:

“We have never been told we have been blacklisted. The CBI (Central Bureau of Investigation) has spoken to us but we have never been told what the charges against us are.”​

He added that:

“We are more than willing to open our books for inspection. We have not done any wrong. Our corporate governance is of a very high standard. In the last 40 years, there has not been a single instance of our having done wrong.”​

BG (rtd) Choy maintained that:

“We have a reputation to keep. Now that trials are to begin of our gun, that speaks for itself.”​

However, according to the The Telegraph, India, the Indian government "has authorised an outright purchase of 145 ultra-light howitzers from the US, a highly-placed defence ministry source said..." If this was the case, there should be a corresponding FMS notification for BAE Land Systems’ M777 (which I note has not appeared).

On the personal basis, I have to admit that the M777 is impressive. It is possible that India will take the FMS route and ST Kinetics may lose this sale. See this impressive air drop video from ArtyEngineer:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXq0-A9Xxw]Heavy drop two M777 Howitzers[/ame]
 
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dragonfire

New Member
@ OPSSG. Does ST Kinetics have any AA guns India is soon going to replce the Indian Army's decades old and obsolete ZSU AA guns from Russia. We need partners who can deliver quality, contemporary and up to date products in a time bound manner in accordance with the contracts signed. One such experience can make a lot of the people in the process to consider the other products for repeat orders. Now the only thing is there shouldnt be any corrput activity like bribes etc
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
@dragonfire, I'm not sure about AA guns and I don't think Singapore is the best place to source for AA guns as RSAF's 160 Squadron operates the Oerlikon 35mm automatic anti-aircraft gun, though ST manufactures the AOS 40mm L70 FADM.

ST Kinetics is going to begin the trials of their howtizers for the IA in a months time as per an official with the company
Here's an update by Ajai Shukla on the sorry tale:

Army, MoD lock horns over ban on Singapore Technologies

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 22nd Jan 09

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) faces accusations of serious contradictions in the apparently ill-considered ban that it imposed last June on arms vendor, Singapore Technologies Kinetic (STK). The ban was slapped on 7 companies after the 19th May 09 arrest of former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) Chairman, Sudipta Ghosh, for corruption.

The ban on STK is all but collapsing. Next month STK’s 155 mm towed gun will take part in firing trials --- cleared by the MoD --- for selecting a new-generation artillery piece for the Indian Army. STK’s Lightweight Assault Rifle will also begin army trials in February. Inexplicably, though, the ban remains on STK’s 155 mm Pegasus ultralight howitzer, which the army wants urgently for India’s mountain divisions.

The Pegasus trials remain blocked despite the efforts of army chief, General Deepak Kapoor --- himself an artilleryman --- who requested the MoD for trials to continue alongside the CBI’s investigations, in order to save time. Rejecting that request (reported in Business Standard on 18th July 09. Full details of the army’s request and the MoD’s rejection is posted on Broadsword… click back to July 09), the MoD approached Washington to allow India to buy the American BAE Systems M777 ultralight howitzer.

The army, however, wants both options open, not a single-vendor situation in which the US-based company can dictate its price. Despite the MoD ban, the army chief has publicly declared that the STK howitzer remains an option.

On 14th Jan 09, General Deepak Kapoor told the press, “We have one gun (the Pegasus) waiting for trials and, at the same time, we have approached a foreign country (the US) for purchasing an ultralight howitzer directly. We will follow both routes. The moment one of them is successful, we will go ahead with that purchase.”

But MoD sources say they are not rethinking the ban on the Pegasus; they say the CBI has solid proof that STK paid money into Ghosh’s bank account in Singapore. Asked why the CBI has failed to file charges against Ghosh, who was freed on bail last July, they have no answers.

Now STK has also --- for the first time --- publicly protested the ban. Last week, STK CEO, Brigadier-General Patrick Choy, revealed to the press in New Delhi that he had travelled to India last year to assist the CBI in its investigations into Ghosh’s alleged corruption. Choy said that he had invited the CBI team to Singapore for a full audit of STK, promising that he would fully open the company’s books to investigators. The CBI has not, so far, responded.

STK first encountered the unpredictability of the Indian defence market when it flew a Pegasus howitzer into India for trials last year, in response to an MoD request. On 5th June 09, just as the Pegasus reached the Pokhran Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan, a media statement from the MoD spokesperson announced that STK had been banned. To this day, the MoD has not officially intimated STK about any ban.

After remaining stranded by the roadside in Pokhran for several days, the Pegasus was moved to Gwalior, where it remains housed in an army unit.

The Indian Army’s artillery modernisation plan has remained stalled, for various reasons, for over two decades; the ultralight howitzer is only the latest procurement fiasco. The army’s 180 artillery gun regiments --- each having 18 guns --- have not received any new weaponry since the Bofors gun was bought in the late 1980s.
 
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Firn

Active Member
Does anybody know what the army exactly wants?


Considering the threat matrix and the terrains I personally came up with the following suggestions for the 155mm systems.

a) A well armoured self-propelled howitzer for the heavy units, like PzH 2000 or the K-9. The same carriage as the main battle tank(s) would be favourable, but is of course highly unlikely. It must be highly and armoured to survive the enemy's counter battery while delivering sustained fire in support of other arms.

b) A relative light howitzer which can be pulled over all those bridges and over all those passes in the Himalaya, possibly transported by helicopters and can be delivered by air as seen above. A very high arc is absolutely necessary for operations in mountainous and urban terrain. Automation is not a high priority given the potential Indian manpower. It might be rather vulnerable against an enemy capable in counter-battery fire.

A though nut to crack, especially the latter. Long or short barrel, very light weight or limited self propulsion? And one should try to figure the MLRS and mortars also into the equation. Perhaps two different types would make most sense.


Firn

P.S: Two new mountain divisions? At least in size they seem to be bases on the (old) German ones. Do they also have armored and highly mobile vehicles in their TO&E? Does the Indian army still use pack animals? Helicopter are very fine and very dandy but one can not rely on them alone.
 
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dragonfire

New Member
Does anybody know what the army exactly wants?


Considering the threat matrix and the terrains I personally came up with the following suggestions for the 155mm systems.

a) A well armoured self-propelled howitzer for the heavy units, like PzH 2000 or the K-9. The same carriage as the main battle tank(s) would be favourable, but is of course highly unlikely. It must be highly and armoured to survive the enemy's counter battery while delivering sustained fire in support of other arms.
I think the IA is currently looking for static guns and not the self propelled ones. IA has some self propelled guns and the DRDO has been experimenting with various tanks instaling the guns on them after removing the turrets

b) A relative light howitzer which can be pulled over all those bridges and over all those passes in the Himalaya, possibly transported by helicopters and can be delivered by air as seen above. A very high arc is absolutely necessary for operations in mountainous and urban terrain. Automation is not a high priority given the potential Indian manpower. It might be rather vulnerable against an enemy capable in counter-battery fire.

A though nut to crack, especially the latter. Long or short barrel, very light weight or limited self propulsion? And one should try to figure the MLRS and mortars also into the equation. Perhaps two different types would make most sense.
I think IA is already looking for a lighter gun as well for the high altitude regions. The IA does use the Pinaka MBRLS (Multi-Barrel Rocket Launching System) for e.g. it was used during Kargil

Firn

P.S: Two new mountain divisions? At least in size they seem to be bases on the (old) German ones. Do they also have armored and highly mobile vehicles in their TO&E? Does the Indian army still use pack animals? Helicopter are very fine and very dandy but one can not rely on them alone.
IA relies on pack animals mainly donkeys. They had tried working with Yaks but it wasnt succesful

IAF has a large fleet of Mi-8 and Mi-17s which does a lot of lifting for the IA and for tactical ops and smaller cargo lifts the IA has its own fleet of Chetaks, Cheetahs, nw Dhruvs

{off topic}
Which reminds me recently i read that China had customised and had designated one of their KJ-2000 type aircraft (not AWACS just the normal transport aircraft) for transporting sheep when the sheep ran out of pasture. Thats pretty cool in my book livestock getting transported via aircraft en masse to newer pastures
 

Firn

Active Member
I think the IA is currently looking for static guns and not the self propelled ones. IA has some self propelled guns and the DRDO has been experimenting with various tanks instaling the guns on them after removing the turrets
I quickly browsed through the equipment of the Indian army an could only find rather old designs like the Abbot with an rather outdated 130 mm. There are many excellent reasons why NATO, WARPAC and Korea invested so heavily into them. The more capable the opposition the greater the need to prevail in the CB fight.


I think IA is already looking for a lighter gun as well for the high altitude regions. The IA does use the Pinaka MBRLS (Multi-Barrel Rocket Launching System) for e.g. it was used during Kargil
While I do think that for an alpine environment the heavy (120 mm) can be considered to be the fire support element par excellence the need for a weapon with more reach is of course there. The CB operations, the interdiction and the destruction of the enemy assets and enemy infrastructure (roads and bridges!!!) all make a relative light, accurate and long ranged 155 mm howitzer a huge asset. The Kargil war merely reinforces that message.

MLRS with guided and unguided rockets can be a sensible addition. Guided rockets with a range of almost 90 km like the ones fired by the MLRS and HIMARS can, If well integrated and supported be an amazing asset. You could fire at the 90° angle to the target and thus from a position very close to a mountain side, shielding you from any conventional CB. (The containerized PAM seems to become more sensible now). Given the often terrific challenges of the terrain and the strain on the roads this ability to engage distant enemy high value targets from many positions in depth unusable by conventional artillery is a great bonus which also makes the resupply easier.

Pinaka seems to be a very sensible addition, but can of course not fire long-ranged guided rockets yet.


IA relies on pack animals mainly donkeys. They had tried working with Yaks but it wasnt succesful
Donkeys can be a very efficient link in the supply chain. They are especially important if we consider just how few roads there are in the Himalaya, and how many good footpaths and donkey trails. In the more rounded and bare landscapes of Ladakh and Spiti, and not just there, a capable cross-country vehicle like the Bv206 could do great things. The wear and tear for the soft tracks however must be breathtaking.

IAF has a large fleet of Mi-8 and Mi-17s which does a lot of lifting for the IA and for tactical ops and smaller cargo lifts the IA has its own fleet of Chetaks, Cheetahs, nw Dhruvs
Support helicopters have almost become a necessity in far-flung operations in mountainous terrain.


Firn

P.S: The BEL Weapon Locating Radar seems to be finally a huge step forward for the fire support and will become a sine qua non. The number of units seems rather small to me and the carriage might not be ideal for difficult terrain. In the mountains you may well need some cross-country mobility to place the vehicle in a good position to keep the screening crests of the mountains as low as possible.
 
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dragonfire

New Member
I quickly browsed through the equipment of the Indian army an could only find rather old designs like the Abbot with an rather outdated 130 mm. There are many excellent reasons why NATO, WARPAC and Korea invested so heavily into them. The more capable the opposition the greater the need to prevail in the CB fight.
Infact almost all of the IA's arty and AA guns is old and outdated. The notable bettr equipment is the Bofors guns and the Tunguska's, the former proved its worth in kargil, the Pinaka is still contemporary and am sure there will be future developments on the system

While I do think that for an alpine environment the heavy (120 mm) can be considered to be the fire support element par excellence the need for a weapon with more reach is of course there. The CB operations, the interdiction and the destruction of the enemy assets and enemy infrastructure (roads and bridges!!!) all make a relative light, accurate and long ranged 155 mm howitzer a huge asset. The Kargil war merely reinforces that message.
The IA is raising a couple of new Mountain brigades in the eastern sector and is on the lookout for light tanks with 120 mm guns, they are looking for 300 wheeled and tracked vehicles apart from the light static guns.


MLRS with guided and unguided rockets can be a sensible addition. Guided rockets with a range of almost 90 km like the ones fired by the MLRS and HIMARS can, If well integrated and supported be an amazing asset. You could fire at the 90° angle to the target and thus from a position very close to a mountain side, shielding you from any conventional CB. (The containerized PAM seems to become more sensible now). Given the often terrific challenges of the terrain and the strain on the roads this ability to engage distant enemy high value targets from many positions in depth unusable by conventional artillery is a great bonus which also makes the resupply easier.

Pinaka seems to be a very sensible addition, but can of course not fire long-ranged guided rockets yet.
The Pinaka MBRL has a range of upto 120 km and IMI is providing assistance to DRDO on TCS of Pinaka for improved CEP. Besides which a longer range improved version is being developed. PAM is yet to be operationaly deployed by the USArmy

Support helicopters have almost become a necessity in far-flung operations in mountainous terrain.
IA is only able to maintain the Siachen ops because of the sortie flown by its helos without which it would not be possible

P.S: The BEL Weapon Locating Radar seems to be finally a huge step forward for the fire support and will become a sine qua non. The number of units seems rather small to me and the carriage might not be ideal for difficult terrain. In the mountains you may well need some cross-country mobility to place the vehicle in a good position to keep the screening crests of the mountains as low as possible.
The IA has also acquired the Green Pine WLRs from the US a few years back - i think about 4 systems were deployed in the Kashmir sectors
 

Rish

New Member
Infact almost all of the IA's arty and AA guns is old and outdated. The notable bettr equipment is the Bofors guns and the Tunguska's, the former proved its worth in kargil, the Pinaka is still contemporary and am sure there will be future developments on the system



The IA is raising a couple of new Mountain brigades in the eastern sector and is on the lookout for light tanks with 120 mm guns, they are looking for 300 wheeled and tracked vehicles apart from the light static guns.




The Pinaka MBRL has a range of upto 120 km and IMI is providing assistance to DRDO on TCS of Pinaka for improved CEP. Besides which a longer range improved version is being developed. PAM is yet to be operationaly deployed by the USArmy



IA is only able to maintain the Siachen ops because of the sortie flown by its helos without which it would not be possible



The IA has also acquired the Green Pine WLRs from the US a few years back - i think about 4 systems were deployed in the Kashmir sectors
pinaka mbrl actually only has a range of 30-40 km
 

Firn

Active Member
The IA is raising a couple of new Mountain brigades in the eastern sector and is on the lookout for light tanks with 120 mm guns, they are looking for 300 wheeled and tracked vehicles apart from the light static guns.
The terrain in the Himalaya offers great variety and gradually opens up towards the Tibet. While good tank country looks often vastly different, there is surprisingly often quite some ground for small armored formations. The integration of a formation of Tanks, IFV and APCs might make quite some sense, even if the supply is rather problematic. However the soldiers should be trained mountaineers.


The Pinaka MBRL has a range of upto 120 km and IMI is providing assistance to DRDO on TCS of Pinaka for improved CEP. Besides which a longer range improved version is being developed. PAM is yet to be operationaly deployed by the USArmy
The range is only 40km and there is no guided rocket in service. So far the GMLRS set the industry standard with a great service record, outstanding precision and a range of up to 90 km. A variant of the ATACMS can cover 300 km and addresses specific operational and strategic needs. South Korea was not surprisingly a buyer, we already talked about their threat matrix.

PAM might be a very sensible addition to light formations, but so far it has not been fielded and there is no feedback from the ground.

The IA has also acquired the Green Pine WLRs from the US a few years back - i think about 4 systems were deployed in the Kashmir sectors
The quality of the carriage is, as I wrote also a very important factor. Basically the higher your position, the larger the space you can scan. On a valley floor you might have quite huge blind spaces or shadows due to having the mountain range in the front of your nose. A more mobile (tracked) one could be important for operations in the Himalaya.


Firn
 

Firn

Active Member
A question: Is there any mountain division which has integral IFV/tank support? The usual way to secure armored support in wartime is to attach a heavy formation to them, especially when they have to fight on easier terrain, which makes things harder for such light units. Just curious.

Firn
 
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