RMAF Future; need opinions

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Vietnam will be operating either 24 or 36 Flankers (I can't seem to get exact numbers) in the near future. 12 Su-27SK, and the rest Su-30MK variants. So they will operate a modern airforce. In addition to this we are looking at a bucketload of Fishbeds. I don't know how high of a threat that's considered, but that outnumbers what the Malaysians currently fly.

I'm very curious to see something solid on the replacements.
 

nevidimka

New Member
Vietnam will be operating either 24 or 36 Flankers (I can't seem to get exact numbers) in the near future. 12 Su-27SK, and the rest Su-30MK variants. So they will operate a modern airforce. In addition to this we are looking at a bucketload of Fishbeds. I don't know how high of a threat that's considered, but that outnumbers what the Malaysians currently fly.

I'm very curious to see something solid on the replacements.
Feanor, is there any evidence that in the russian circle about exchanging the MiG's with 6 MKM's?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
When Dr M was PM, his behaviour ensured that he was not taken seriously when discussing defence matters and that his past policy choices were seen as potentially destabilizing by responsible leaders in the region..
A point to take note here is that during the 80's and 90's, Malaysia as a developing nation was expected to accept what was offered and do as told when it came to certain issues with 1st world nations, irrespective of the double standards and hyprocisy involved. When it refused to do so it often led to Mahathir taking a lot of Flak for being ''difficult'' and ''uncooperative''. Yes Mahathir's policies with regards to defence have been disastrous for the Malaysian Armed Forces, no one here is disputing that but to claim that he reduced cooperation and his policies were destabilising in my opinion is not accurate .
Mahathir did say his fair share of insensitive remarks but then he was not alone in doing so in the region. All leaders say things to appeal to a domestic audience, not just leaders from developing or 3rd world nations. Some of the things Bush said in the run up to the Iraq war and the global war on terrorism may have disturbed and and made little sense to an international audience but to many Americans it made sense.

Another point to take note, which I know you're aware of, is Malaysia's policy of not being overtly too close to any country with regards to defence, and this due to a number of internal factors [however flawed], not solely due to its involvement with the Non Aligned Movement. Even under the Najib administration, Malaysia has not endevoured to take its defence relationship to a new level to a point where it would be classified as a non-NATO U.S. ally like Thailand and the Philippines or a close U.S. ally like Singapore.

Thailand and Singapore have had to work to earn US's trust as responsible powers that contribute to regional stability, whereas, Malaysia under Dr M worked to ensure reduced defence cooperation between other powers and the Malaysian defence establishment in his attempt to look good before the non-aligned movement.
Your statement is too simplistic and not quite accurate, no offence intended, this just my opinion. It was during the late 80's that Malaysia increased it's comittment to the FPDA. Had Malaysia or Singapore decided that the FPDA was no longer needed, the whole arrangement would have ended. This was after a period where some claimed the FPDA was growing increasingly irrelevant partly due to low key participation by the UK, with the Deputy Prime Minister of Singapore saying in 1981 that the FPDA was dated and not relevent to the Soviet threat. It was also in the 80's that the RMAF conducted its first annual exercises with the USAF. Some years later, the RMAF made its largest purchase of fighters when 88 Skyhawks were ordered from the U.S. Malaysia came close to ordering a 2nd batch of F-5Es in 1982 but canceled the order due a cut in the defence budget.

Mahathir may have been many things but he was not stupid, he never burned his bridges with the US because he knew it would be suicidal diplomaticly and economicly. Though the U.S./Malaysia relationship, like every other relationship, naturally had it low moments defence ties with the US were always mantained.

Anyway, this is an RMAF thread so its best to leave politics and international relations out of the picture, when possible.....
 
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Dzirhan

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Nothing solid on replacements at the moment though both Minister and RMAF Chief indicate it's going to be a western aircraft if any. Will depend largely on the country's financial and political situation. Saab is pushing a package similar to the Thai one for the Gripens in that it will include Aew and/or MPAs in the deal.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Nothing solid on replacements at the moment though both Minister and RMAF Chief indicate it's going to be a western aircraft if any. Will depend largely on the country's financial and political situation. Saab is pushing a package similar to the Thai one for the Gripens in that it will include Aew and/or MPAs in the deal.
What are your personal thoughts on this Dzirhan? You still feel the Gripen is the leading contender? I think the fact that Boeing wasn't at LIMA says a lot.
 

Dzirhan

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What are your personal thoughts on this Dzirhan? You still feel the Gripen is the leading contender? I think the fact that Boeing wasn't at LIMA says a lot.
The gripen has been coming up often in the circles I'm in but at the moment it is really too early to really state who the leading contender is until the RFI/RFP actually comes out and whether there is actually funding for the purchase. I heard Lockheed Martin is also pushing the F-16 strongly too but they weren't at LIMA either. There's been a fair amount of cutbacks in the defence industry which as a result companies are picking and choosing their shows carefully so LIMA could have been off the calendar for Boeing because of this and it could be that Boeing felt that since the offer is already there and PM Najib and the RMAF pretty much knows what Boeing is all about so they felt that they didn't need to be there further.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Your statement is too simplistic and not quite accurate, no offence intended, this just my opinion.
There is great value in interacting with Malaysians on a forum, as it enables me to learn more about various Malaysian perspectives. Please understand that I do not mean offence.

I know this is a little off topic but your post deserved a response.

Yes Mahathir's policies with regards to defence have been disastrous for the Malaysian Armed Forces, no one here is disputing that but to claim that he reduced cooperation and his policies were destabilising in my opinion is not accurate.
Let me provide my perspective, which is necessarily Singaporean. I make no pretense at being unbiased. Like each of us, I am a product (victim) of my own experience and observations.

After the SQ117 hijack from Subang Airport in Kuala Lumpur on 26 March 1991 (instead of expressing sympathy, promising to tighten security or increasing security cooperation, as Malaysia had done with the US in the aftermath of Sept 11), Malaysia under Dr M chose to conduct, an airborne assault exercise, codenamed Pukul Habis (Malay for 'Total Wipeout') on 9 August 1991, with a drop zone in southern Johor just 18km from Singapore. Singapore's response was measured and confident. We triggered an Open Mobilisation on the eve of Singapore's 26th National Day. This mobilization meant that many thousands of Singaporean families could not spend time together (by virtue of the fact that NSFs and NSmen* were reporting to camp) on a public holiday because our neighbours decided to saber rattle. And this was not the only reported incident where a decision made by the Malaysian government/armed forces that triggered mobilization in Singapore. In fact, we, as a country had to develop a system of rotational alertness levels to cope with the need for rapid mobilization in the event of a sudden outbreak of hostilities. Ironically, Indonesia greatly benefited from our system in the aftermath of the Dec 2004 Tsunami - were our forces were able to be deployed in-country even before the US Marines arrived to deliver aid.

How would you feel if Singapore conducted major amphibious assault exercises, oh on say 31 August of any year? Especially since the exercise was scheduled after a significant terrorist incident affecting Singapore that originated from Malaysia soil. The choice of the date of the exercise is symbolic and I would not describe Ex Pukul Habis as enhancing stability. See post #312 of this thread for a chronology of Singaporean events.

In some years, Kuala Lumpur said that as a result of the impact of the 1997 economic and financial crises, Malaysia was not able to take part in some FPDA exercises. The FPDA decision-making is consensual and clearly, Dr M, at various points of his regime reduced defence cooperation in the 1990s by refusing to take part in FPDA exercises or other actions. Observers like me, suspect that these decisions were linked to a broader downturn in relations between the our two countries. Alternatively, it could be related to the tensions between Dr M and the relevant Australian PM or the Australian press during the period considered.

The Malaysia-Singapore bilateral relationship when Dr M was in power (in the 1990s and up to the time he stepped down in Oct 2003) can be described as strained. This is in sharp contrast to the excellent current relationship between our leaders - where Singaporean aircraft are invited to LIMA. And that such an invitation is accepted (click for pixs).

*Note: In the past, NSmen were called reservists. So depending on which period, where Dr M's decisions triggered a mobilization, the Singaporeans being mobilized could be accurately called 'reservists'.

It was during the late 80's that Malaysia increased it's commitment to the FPDA. Had Malaysia or Singapore decided that the FPDA was no longer needed, the whole arrangement would have ended.
Agreed and I'm sure Indonesia would be happy to see FPDA dissolved. For a useful perspective on the FPDA, I would recommend this article by Carlyle A. Thayer.

Mahathir did say his fair share of insensitive remarks but then he was not alone in doing so in the region. All leaders say things to appeal to a domestic audience, not just leaders from developing or 3rd world nations.
Ask a Jew if he thinks Dr M's remarks are merely insensitive. Having said that, I do understand the domestic imperative of expressing co-religionist solidarity. I also understand why the Malaysian government under Dr M had been vocal in condemning the U.S. actions and policies and demanded the world community clarify the concept of “terrorism” and associated the root cause of current trend of terrorism to the plights of the Palestinians and US policy in the Middle East.

Another point to take note, which I know you're aware of, is Malaysia's policy of not being overtly too close to any country with regards to defence, and this due to a number of internal factors [however flawed], not solely due to its involvement with the Non Aligned Movement.
That is actually useful.

Even under the Najib administration, Malaysia has not endevoured to take its defence relationship to a new level to a point where it would be classified as a non-NATO U.S. ally like Thailand and the Philippines or a close U.S. ally like Singapore.
Minor point of clarification. Singapore is not an ally of the US. We are but one of many coalition partners (and a junior one at that).

Mahathir may have been many things but he was not stupid...naturally it had low moments
Yes, agreed. To be fair, in the immediate aftermath of the 11th September 2001 attacks, Dr. M was amongst the many world leaders who openly condemned the terrorist acts.

In May 2002, US and Malaysia signed a joint declaration to fight terrorism in Southeast Asia, making Malaysia’s efforts part of the Global War on Terrorism. The declaration agreed to mutual cooperation in counter-terrorism in defence, banking, intelligence sharing, border control, transportation and law enforcement. Consequently, the existing defence cooperation has not only been enhanced. In 2002, Dato Seri Najib Tun Razak revealed that Malaysia had granted all U.S. requests for flightovers during Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan In addition, he also stated that Malaysia had assisted the US in arresting and handing over suspected terrorists wanted by the US.

Partly, as a result of these efforts, the US provided funding and training resources for the setting up of the South East Asia Regional Centre for Counter–Terrorism in Malaysia. In other moves, the US increased IMET funding for the training of Malaysian military officers and also provided 1206 funding to establish a coastal surveillance radar system for Malaysia.

With the above said, shall we go back to discussing the Malaysian MiG-29 replacements?
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
In some years, Kuala Lumpur said that as a result of the impact of the 1997 economic and financial crises, Malaysia was not able to take part in some FPDA exercises.

Alternatively, it could be related to the tensions between Dr M and relevant the Australian PMs or the Australian press during the relevant period. .
Malaysia suspended its participation in the 1998 FDDA exercise but resumed its involvement the following year. The largest and most complex FPDA exercises started taking place in the 90's [it's in the Thayer article] and would not have been possible without the full participation of all 5 member nations.

The problems with the Aussie press was a few years prior and were in no way connected to the FPDA.

Ask a Jew if he thinks Dr M's remarks are merely insensitive.
I won't comment about this as it could lead to certain unpleasentness and be taken the wrong way by others in the forum. No, I'm not anti-semitic. :)

The Malaysia-Singapore bilateral relationship when Dr M was in power (in the 1990s and up to the time he stepped down in Oct 2003) can be described as strained. This is in sharp contrast to the excellent current relationship between our leaders - where Singaporean aircraft are invited to LIMA.
Again you're giving the simplistic impression that Mahathir and Malaysia are the sole reasons behind the downturn in relations. Im saying this from an objective perspective not a Malaysian perspective. It was strained because if a number of issues that until today remain unresolved and as I pointed out Mahathir before and after retirement did not have a monopoly on insensitive remarks.

The RSAF first came to LIMA in 1991 and never returned not because they were not invited..... Similiarly CIS was at DSA 94 and never returned, again it was not because they were not invited or were not welcome. I was involved in some way with a company asspciated with LIMA, let me assure you the Singaporeans decided not to return on their own accord.

Off topic and totally unrelated but talking about Singaporean companies just triggered an incident in my mind which I found hilarous. BTW, no pun intended to Singapore or Sngaporean companies.... Anyway at DSA 94 I was at the CIS booth admiring an Ultimax.
I asked the salesman if any had been sold abroad, he said no. I replied that I had seen Ultimaxs in Croatia. He looked at me with a perfectly straight face and said it was a Yugoslav copy of the Ultimax.

This mobilization meant that many thousands of Singaporean families could not spend time together (by virtue of the fact that NSFs and NSmen* were reporting to camp) on a public holiday because our neighbours decided to saber rattle.
This the 2nd or 3rd time you've mentioned ''Pukul Habis'' in your threads and yes I get your point. You seem to get the impression that it is only the SAF that mobilises due to actions of a close neighbour. I can cite a number of incidents where parties apart from Malaysia decided to ''saber rattle''. But I won't because it would lead to nowhere and I suspect dragging this any further would draw me some flak with the mods. And yes I think we should get back to discusing the RMAF and not veer off topic.
 
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s.raptorski

New Member
what are they planning to do with these .......imho russians will be a little reluctant to take them back...why dont try indians.... they would take them if good offer is made...they are already upgrading their own fulcrums....
feel free to disagree:)
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
what are they planning to do with these .......imho russians will be a little reluctant to take them back...why dont try indians.... they would take them if good offer is made...they are already upgrading their own fulcrums....
feel free to disagree:)
Actually the Russians have made it clear they'd be very happy to accept the MiGs as part payment. Abot 2 weeks back the Malaysian Defence Minister said that 2 parties have shown an interest. I doubt if the IAF is keen on any additional Fulcrums though.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are no such news in Russian press, but the news may be swept under the rug until some official agreement is reached.
 

nevidimka

New Member
This the 2nd or 3rd time you've mentioned ''Pukul Habis'' in your threads and yes I get your point. You seem to get the impression that it is only the SAF that mobilises due to actions of a close neighbour. I can cite a number of incidents where parties apart from Malaysia decided to ''saber rattle''. But I won't because it would lead to nowhere and I suspect dragging this any further would draw me some flak with the mods. And yes I think we should get back to discusing the RMAF and not veer off topic.
LOL!.. exactly.. its more like 4-5 times this has been mentioned. I guess the lad has been badly traumatised by the pukul habis. :rolleyes:

Anyways..could the malaysian MiG's be heading to Myanmanr as part of their 20 plane deal?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
LOL!.. exactly.. its more like 4-5 times this has been mentioned. I guess the lad has been badly traumatised by the pukul habis. :rolleyes:

Anyways..could the malaysian MiG's be heading to Myanmanr as part of their 20 plane deal?
LOL... No at all, it was a good and valid example of Malaysian saber rattling (and in my defence, I gave that as an example of an act that did not enhance stability in response to a prior point).

Edit: Text deleted to tone down my response to nevidimka's usual pattern of behaviour.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Last warning about staying on topic.

You'd all be aware of how quickly we tend to react to failures of acknowledging Mods requests.

This is my christmas and new year present to posters on this thread :)


Note the first sentence.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I doubt the Malaysian MiGs are going to Myanmar. The Burmese MiGs are allegedly SMTs, and 24 in number coming from Russia.
 

nevidimka

New Member
BUt the Malaysian MiG's still have 10-15 years on its life yet. WOuldnt it be lesser cost to overhaul and upgrade them into SMT's than to buy totally new SMT's alltogether? Say like the MiG's going to Russia to be upgraded to SMT's and then sold to Myanmar at reduced price.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
NO Myanmar is purchasing 20 new migs and whether they are SMTs or not has not been confirmed. it already operates 12 Mig-29s and they are not SMTs:eek:
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
yuo know Malaysia can just upgrafe its Mig 29s into SMTs. this would save a lot of trouble for the country. the SMTs are 4+ generation aircraft and would seriously be a boost to the RMAF
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Burmese are getting 24 SMTs. Not 12 Ns. There has not been any news of returning the Ns to Russia, and there has been no news of a refurbishment order for them. From what I understand the SMTs for Myanmar are either coming from MiG/VVS invetories, and upgraded to SMT, or they're the same ones that Algeria returned.

SMTs are not a 4+ generation. They're roughly the level of an MLU F-16... block 30 or so.
 
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