F-35 Fantasy or Fake F-35 Discussions Debunked

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Grand Danois

Entertainer
IPA35 said:
Appearantly the Australians ordered 14...
RAAF first to put joint strike fighter on flightline | The Australian

3.2 billion for 14 planes:shudder

I wonder if it is Australian dollars or American dollars.
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Aussie dollars - and it includes TCO for the first years of service in RAAF. Just like the 6 billion AUD for the 24 Shornet included TCO for 10 years. Acquisition of the Supers was less than half of that (2.4 bn), irrc.

The F-35, all in the CTOL configuration, will be used largely to replace the Royal Australian Air Force's older F/A-18 fleet.
Today's decision merely affects the first 14 F-35s to be used in testing and to prepare the groundwork for fleet-wide introduction of JSF. The bill for those fighters, along with infrastructure and support, comes to A$3.2 billion.

Ares Homepage

a qualified guess would be that Australia paid slightly above 100 million usd per early bird.
 
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IPA35

New Member
Our budget is/was around 6 billion for 85 planes and 10 for 30 years of service...
means we can equip two small squadrons if these prices will stay the same:el.
 
G

Grand Danois

Entertainer
IPA35 said:
Our budget is/was around 6 billion for 85 planes and 10 for 30 years of service...
means we can equip two small squadrons if these prices will stay the same:el.
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1) these are still early birds - NL isn't getting any in 2014. ;)
2) those 6 billion is most likely for acquisition only. Not TCO for the period, as the Aussie number.
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Scorpion82 said:
Fair enough. Your statment did sound as if you was convinced about that and that's why I asked, albeit I didn't expect any different answer. Maybe the best approach would be let a pilot used to russian aeroplanes fly those different western fighters and let him report about his feelings about the MMI of those fighters. I have read the same comments as you, but I have also read the opposite elsewhere so whom should I believe? I personally tend to assess such things on my own. While not being a fighter pilot, I have at least flown in real military simulators and have plenty of experience with PC sims. So I have a rough idea on how things work and what might be more or less productive for a pilot.
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My understanding of what I had read was that whatever the difference was, it was something that until the pilot transitioned to it, there was an impact on performance. Once the transition was complete though, the pilot could then make full and proper use of the aircraft. The impression I was left with was that some air forces that France/Dassault had tried to sell the Rafale to did consider the layout/presentation/whatever it is about the Rafale avionics or cockpit, a negative presumably because it would mean that pilots needed more training to transition to the aircraft compared with other designs.

Scorpion82 said:
That's what is known as sensor fusion and what can be found on existing fighters like the Rafale, Typhoon or F-22 to mention some examples. The F-35 will certainly built on top of that, but it remains to be seen how it works out in the end. What I want to say with that is that the approach itself is neither new, nor unique to the F-35. The level of that might be higher on the F-35, depending on how existing designs will be further developed.
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Indeed, the avionics package of the F-35 is all about sensor fusion. The F-35 is supposed to be a step (or two or three or more...) beyond the sensor fusion achieved with the F-22, which seems a safe assumption since the lead contractor for both aircraft is LockMart. To me at least, it is just logical that LockMart would take corporate knowledge acquired from the F-22 Raptor and apply it to the F-35 Lightning II. As such I expect that it would be integrated to a degree beyond what has already been accomplished with current aircraft. Use of a fiberoptic wiring loom, an OOP language like C++ and some other features should allow the F-35 to stay 'current' with future avionics developments more easily than most other advanced designs. In addition, the inclusion of the Northrupp Grumman EO DAS (Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System) further improves SA by providing 360 degree spherical coverage around the aircraft. This is not an avionics/sensor feature than any other current aircraft can claim.

In time, and with significant amounts of money and R&D I do believe that other aircraft can reach the level of the F-35. All the same though, the F-35 has (or will) become the new benchmark against which other fighter avionics packages are measured against. The other thing to consider is also that even if other fighters reach the same level of avionics performance as the F-35, aside for the F-22 which has even greater LO capabilities the F-35 will most likely out perform the upgraded fighter in most mission areas.

-Cheers
 
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IPA35

New Member
Multiple sources (included leaked documents) tell us that it is enough to operate 55 aircraft and then there would be some money available to buy the rest, but not to operate them IIRC.
It would make sense since they airforce all of a sudden desided to order in two batches (and you've guessed it 55 and 30).


The latest sources say only 40 planes but I'm not sure what to believe.
 
S

Scorpion82

New Member
Todjaeger said:
My understanding of what I had read was that whatever the difference was, it was something that until the pilot transitioned to it, there was an impact on performance. Once the transition was complete though, the pilot could then make full and proper use of the aircraft. The impression I was left with was that some air forces that France/Dassault had tried to sell the Rafale to did consider the layout/presentation/whatever it is about the Rafale avionics or cockpit, a negative presumably because it would mean that pilots needed more training to transition to the aircraft compared with other designs.
That might be quite possible depending on a pilots backgrounds and what he is used to or simply what he feels is good or bad. An average from let's say 20+ pilots with differing backgrounds might be interesting.


Indeed, the avionics package of the F-35 is all about sensor fusion. The F-35 is supposed to be a step (or two or three or more...) beyond the sensor fusion achieved with the F-22, which seems a safe assumption since the lead contractor for both aircraft is LockMart. To me at least, it is just logical that LockMart would take corporate knowledge acquired from the F-22 Raptor and apply it to the F-35 Lightning II. As such I expect that it would be integrated to a degree beyond what has already been accomplished with current aircraft. Use of a fiberoptic wiring loom, an OOP language like C++ and some other features should allow the F-35 to stay 'current' with future avionics developments more easily than most other advanced designs. In addition, the inclusion of the Northrupp Grumman EO DAS (Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System) further improves SA by providing 360 degree spherical coverage around the aircraft. This is not an avionics/sensor feature than any other current aircraft can claim.

In time, and with significant amounts of money and R&D I do believe that other aircraft can reach the level of the F-35. All the same though, the F-35 has (or will) become the new benchmark against which other fighter avionics packages are measured against. The other thing to consider is also that even if other fighters reach the same level of avionics performance as the F-35, aside for the F-22 which has even greater LO capabilities the F-35 will most likely out perform the upgraded fighter in most mission areas.

-Cheers
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I partitially agree, as said it remains yet to be seen how things work out in the end and maybe we'll never know or just in a very distant future.
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G

Grand Danois

Entertainer
IPA35 said:
Multiple sources (included leaked documents) tell us that it is enough to operate 55 aircraft and then there would be some money available to buy the rest, but not to operate them IIRC.
It would make sense since they airforce all of a sudden desided to order in two batches (and you've guessed it 55 and 30).


The latest sources say only 40 planes but I'm not sure what to believe.
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Well, we're (DK) down to 30 "active" jets, but that's supposedly from politically established requirements and not from budget blow-outs... and unrelated to whatever type is chosen.
 
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IPA35

New Member
I'm not really into the Danish airforce but I assume the F-35 is still favourite?
I expect budget troubles though, not only in our countries, but in most JSF countries.
 
G

Grand Danois

Entertainer
IPA35 said:
I'm not really into the Danish airforce but I assume the F-35 is still favourite?
I expect budget troubles though, not only in our countries, but in most JSF countries.
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Since the Norwegians went JSF and since the Danish Government decided on an expeditionary fighter air arm model - I've considered the JSF as a give.

I expect trouble too. The hurdles for the JSF is IMV: slow pace of test flights, and which is more critical, will L-M be able to bring down the cost of manufacture to projected levels?
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Scorpion82 said:
That might be quite possible depending on a pilots backgrounds and what he is used to or simply what he feels is good or bad. An average from let's say 20+ pilots with differing backgrounds might be interesting.
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I was left with the impression that the difference was a fundamental one, as opposed to just a pilot preference or something which having a differing pilot background would make a difference. Hence my comment about the US and British automobile markets...

-Cheers
 
Z

zeven

New Member
PeterCrisp said:
I thought the UK had been given the all clear for the code to the F-35 but it seems not. Will this decision make much difference to how the export customers are able to use the aircraft or is this just media hype about something that won't actually matter?

U.S. to withhold F-35 fighter software code | U.S. | Reuters
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From an operational point, the difference will be a minor one. from "the national pride" point of view is devastating.
 
I

IPA35

New Member
Will LM personell do the maintainance?

Or something like paying for available aircraft instead of spares, how does this work?
 
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