Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft

[dragonfire]

I think the points to be noted from the IN's announcement would be

• The IN is looking for STOBAR capable alternate options to the Mig-29K for the first Vikrant class AC
• These options are currently the Hornet (no chance), SHornet, Rafale, Su-33
• Only Boeing and Dassault have confirmed reciept of the RFI
• The RFI is generic in nature - to understand what can be on offer
• The Naval LCA could see its order limited to the 6 ordered recently
• The second ADS would be affected by the options available for the IN, which it is exploring currently
• The IN is looking out for the best in class options it can access in terms of ACs as well as carrier based fighters

BTW
@ Crusader2000
I think you should reveal your source about INs interest in the EMALS system, if found genuine then it opens a lot of possibilities for the IN

@ricksavage
Indian Military heads (IIRC both IN and IAF chiefs) have recently stated on record that they are not interested to go on a asset to asset match-up with China, they had also stated that they currently equipped to handle all threats. I think US could be willing to sell the EMALS tech to India, it will bring in more $$ and jobs. India wouldnt have major issues with money, unless it's like way way too much. It has spent close to 3 Billion for the INS Vikramaditya (albeit unwillingly). But the order wouldnt be unless the IN is very serious about changing from STOBAR to CATOBAR ops and that change would not be be for only one AC - yes i am speculating if this has to happen it should be for atleast two CATOBAR carriers.

BTW - on a related line

I have always wondered why the Russian ACs like the Gorshkov and the Kuznetsov carry a much smaller air contigent, for eg the Gorshkov and the under construction Indian ADS are in similar tonnage and yet the ADS is going to have 36 fighters while the INS Vikramaditya will have only 16. The close to 70K ton Kuznetsov has only about 20 fighters, whereas a Nimitiz class (40 - 50 % more tonnage) has about 80 fighters. And yet the Kuznetsov has much bigger dimesnsions (if anyone wants to argue about flight deck) than the Indian ADS

Also wanted to add a point LM had try to sweeten the F-16 offer to the IAF in the MMRCA by suggesting that such an order could pave way to a future F-35 offer - releveant or not i thought it would a be an interesting point

 

[kev 99]

I would expect one of the reasons for a smaller airgroup for the Kuznetsov would be the significant amount of weapon systems that it carries.

Another would be the size of the aircraft, Su33s are massive (and there aren't many of them!).

 

[dragonfire]

I would expect one of the reasons for a smaller airgroup for the Kuznetsov would be the significant amount of weapon systems that it carries.

Another would be the size of the aircraft, Su33s are massive (and there aren't many of them!).

Oh come on

The PLAN has been buying the Su-33s. Anyway the Su-33 onboard the Kuznetsov are supposedly to be replaced by Mig-29Ks - wonder how many units would be deployed on board. Wrt Weapon systems from pics it doesnt look like the Kuznetsov has Vertical Launchers like the original design for the Gorshkov, apart from the superstructure the rest of the deck looks clear !

 

[Crusader2000]

BTW
@ Crusader2000
I think you should reveal your source about INs interest in the EMALS system, if found genuine then it opens a lot of possibilities for the IN



I will but it will have to be later today! (Sorry, I am very busy at the moment.)

 

[kev 99]

Oh come on

The PLAN has been buying the Su-33s. Anyway the Su-33 onboard the Kuznetsov are supposedly to be replaced by Mig-29Ks - wonder how many units would be deployed on board. Wrt Weapon systems from pics it doesnt look like the Kuznetsov has Vertical Launchers like the original design for the Gorshkov, apart from the superstructure the rest of the deck looks clear !

What about internal layout? Those Granits and all those SAM/CIWS must available hanger space.

China are trying to buy Su33s, so far the Russians appear to have knocked them back.

 

[Crusader2000]

What about internal layout? Those Granits and all those SAM/CIWS must available hanger space.

China are trying to buy Su33s, so far the Russians appear to have knocked them back.

FYI

China is not trying to purchase the Su--33. Its developing its own Naval Verison of the Flanker. Plus, a more advance and I believe Stealthy Fighter is coming after that! (i.e. J-13) Thought its possible the J-13 could indeed be the Chinese Naval Flanker. Hard to tell with China considering how secretive they are.......

 

[Salty Dog]

What about internal layout? Those Granits and all those SAM/CIWS must available hanger space.

China are trying to buy Su33s, so far the Russians appear to have knocked them back.

Notice the 12 missile hatches for the Granit SSM in the forward flight deck of the Kuznetsov. No doubt these will take up considerable below deck (hangar) space

Yes, China as been unsuccessful so far in acquiring the Su-33 from Russia.

China to Buy Su-33 Carrier-Based Fighters from Russia?

I agree with you.. . .

 

[kev 99]

Notice the 12 missile hatches for the Granit SSM in the forward flight deck of the Kuznetsov. No doubt these will take up considerable below deck (hangar) space

Yes, China as been unsuccessful so far in acquiring the Su-33 from Russia.

China to Buy Su-33 Carrier-Based Fighters from Russia?

I agree with you.. . .

Yep exactly what i was getting at, Granits aren't exactly small now are they, plus you can add all the rest of Kuznetsovs weapon systems in and they must eat into available internal volume.

 

[Salty Dog]

Yep exactly what i was getting at, Granits aren't exactly small now are they, plus you can add all the rest of Kuznetsovs weapon systems in and they must eat into available internal volume.

In the Granits´ case yes, however the ships self defense systems such as SAMs and CIWS are located on outboard sponsons, outside both the hangar deck and flight deck areas.

 

[Crusader2000]

BTW
@ Crusader2000
I think you should reveal your source about INs interest in the EMALS system, if found genuine then it opens a lot of possibilities for the IN

Here you go......

Indian Navy prefers Emals on new aircraft carriers

.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The last 24hrs of posts are all over the place.

Please make the effort to make sure that you edit and display responses properly.

Everyone has 48hrs to clean them up so that they're aesethetically fixed and present properly before the Mods go out and clean them up ourselves - which could mean deletion.

Please make the effort to post properly as it presents as indolence and disrespectful to others if you can't bother replying properly.

 

[irtusk]

to start off Crusader Mig-29 need no catapult while the F-18 Refale do!

Incorrect, Boeing has already told India the Super Hornet will work off the ski jump on the Gorshkov 'with a substantial payload'

 

[swerve]

BTW
@ Crusader2000
I think you should reveal your source about INs interest in the EMALS system, if found genuine then it opens a lot of possibilities for the IN

Here you go......

Indian Navy prefers Emals on new aircraft carriers

.

Not even a secondary source. Tertiary at best. And look at the agency -

Sawf News is a news agency based in Austin, TX, USA and NCR, India, which specializes in quality Hollywood, Bollywood, Fashion, Lifestyle and Health news. Our news stories are accurate, well written and timely. They conform to the highest standards of journalistic ethics.

We gather our news throught photographers, journalists and agencies based in Hollywood and Mumbai.

A source of Bollywood gossip, with spelling errors on its extremely amateurish-looking website. I reckon that's run out of someones bedroom, & all it does is recycle other peoples stories without attribution. That's certainly what it's done in this case.

Note that the real source is, although eminently respectable, now unofficial - "former Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Sureesh Mehta." (retired a few months ago), & making a vague statement about future possibilities - "When catapult technology improves, we are looking at building conventional carriers with electric rather than steam catapults," - not current plans. He made no mention of it in his (official, pre-retirement) outline of the Indian navy planned for 2020.

 

[dragonfire]

Not even a secondary source. Tertiary at best. And look at the agency -


A source of Bollywood gossip, with spelling errors on its extremely amateurish-looking website. I reckon that's run out of someones bedroom, & all it does is recycle other peoples stories without attribution. That's certainly what it's done in this case.

Note that the real source is, although eminently respectable, now unofficial - "former Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Sureesh Mehta." (retired a few months ago), & making a vague statement about future possibilities - "When catapult technology improves, we are looking at building conventional carriers with electric rather than steam catapults," - not current plans. He made no mention of it in his (official, pre-retirement) outline of the Indian navy planned for 2020.

I second swerve's analysis on this source. Perhaps one can at best relate this statement of Rtd Adm. Suresh Mehta, to the current "generic" IN RFI for the naval fighters. Any modern ambitious navy would and should be interested in what are the future technological breakthroughs coming up. This should be associated with a requirement to be "aware" than with "intention to procure".

But you never know IN seems to be looking at paradigm changes. It has upped its status from being a traditionaly single AC navy to planning to have atleast 3. The current fleet expansion plans for the next decade is perhaps one of the largest assets acquisition drives amongst world navies.

I think it is safe to assume than in case IN is going to procure said tech, then a lot more inputs than this source will come out and one can be patient till that time

 

[Crusader2000]

Not even a secondary source. Tertiary at best. And look at the agency -


A source of Bollywood gossip, with spelling errors on its extremely amateurish-looking website. I reckon that's run out of someones bedroom, & all it does is recycle other peoples stories without attribution. That's certainly what it's done in this case.

Note that the real source is, although eminently respectable, now unofficial - "former Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Sureesh Mehta." (retired a few months ago), & making a vague statement about future possibilities - "When catapult technology improves, we are looking at building conventional carriers with electric rather than steam catapults," - not current plans. He made no mention of it in his (official, pre-retirement) outline of the Indian navy planned for 2020.

Sorry, all I said was India "had" expressed an "interest" in the EMALS. Which, is why I posted just one article. (and the fact that I was very busy) Plus, why didn't you just provide a secondary source and leave it at that???? Instead you just find one more thing to criticize me about.....


BTW Doesn't sound like a vague statement to me??? We are talking about Adm. Sureesh Mehta and a very recent article from DTI. (Aviation Week) A source that I've seen you quote from time to time.

Nonetheless, here's the article in its entirety from Aviation Week. So, the members can decide fro themselves.........



Quote:

India Mulls Land-Based E-2D

Oct 19, 2009

Neelam Mathews/New Delhi


The Indian navy is reevaluating the design of its future aircraft carriers and showing interest in the U.S. Navy's Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (Emals), which is in development by General Atomics.

Emals uses a linear motor drive instead of steam pistons to accelerate aircraft for takeoff. India uses short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (Stovl) Sea Harriers from its current carrier, the INS Viraat, which is near retirement. The navy has been waiting some time for the refurbished Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov, now due for delivery in 2012, and is working with Fincantieri of Italy on two carriers.

"When catapult technology improves, we are looking at building conventional carriers with electric rather than steam catapults," former Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Sureesh Mehta tells DTI. With more than 7,500 km. (4,660 mi.) of coastline to patrol, experts say India needs at least five carriers.

For near-term patrol and force-projection needs, India is evaluating the Northrop Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye. Discussions are underway following export authorization in August by the U.S. government to Northrop Grumman covering the latest version of the E-2.

India has a requirement for six E2Ds, which it hopes to use in surveillance sorties and antiterrorism patrols.

John Beaulieu, E-2 new business manager for the U.S. Navy, made an 8-hr. presentation in August to Indian navy officials who requested technical clarifications following a request for information in 2008. Northrop Grumman has been asked to supply a shore-based version of the E-2D, since India's carrier-based naval aircraft are not catapult-launched.

Shore-based operations may be the only way to go for the E-2D, as the navy has no carrier besides the Viraat. Sixteen MiG-29K fighters on order will equip the Gorshkov, which, when it arrives, will accommodate ski-jump takeoffs and arrested landings.

During his term as chief of staff, Mehta said the navy needed a robust overhead surveillance capability. India seems to be following the U.S. Navy's approach by ordering the Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft to replace aging Tupolev Tu-142M turboprops.

India has also been interested for years in an aircraft that provides airborne early warning and battle management command and control. The E-2D, fitted with Lockheed Martin's AN/APY-9 radar, would increase the territory India monitors by 300%.

Critics say the E-2 has low endurance, a cramped cabin, is expensive to operate and designed primarily for communication gear that is unique to the U.S. Navy. "We have addressed the extended fuel range to give 8 hr. of flight time," says Beaulieu. "The only similarity to the E-2C and the E-2D is the shadow it casts on the tarmac."

Northrop Grumman has, moreover, signed a memorandum of understanding with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to develop a "wet wing" that holds additional fuel and permits the aircraft to fly for 8 hr.

"The E-2D is designed for maritime operations and [its radar] has a unique capability against air and surface targets," says Beaulieu. A detailed life-cycle analysis calculated on flight hours using an E-2C indicates a cost of less than $3,000 per flight, he adds.

The interoperability of the E-2D with the U.S. Navy and NATO through data links is another advantage. "Interoperability is a very important aspect. It's fine to have this airborne early warning system up in the air, but if you cannot communicate with not only our forces, but our allies around the world, it doesn't do us, or [India], much good," Beaulieu says. "If India desires to be interoperable with the U.S. Navy and NATO through data link systems, this is the platform of choice."

The U.S. Navy wants Emals to replace large and heavy steam catapults. The trend toward heavier, faster aircraft will result in launch-energy requirements that exceed the capability of steam catapults. While the U.S. design might be too big for India, the launch stroke can be reduced and power supplies are modular. Electrical power would need to be added to a carrier with Emals, but high-energy-density flywheels will replace the low energy density of a steam accumulator.

 

[swerve]

Sorry, all I said was India "had" expressed an "interest" in the EMALS. Which, is why I posted just one article. (and the fact that I was very busy) Plus, why didn't you just provide a secondary source and leave it at that???? Instead you just find one more thing to criticize me about.........

But you make it so easy!

If you knew there was a reputable source, why cite an utterly disreputable one? I think you've only just found the Aviation Week article, & only looked because I tore apart your original source.

This is not "India", it's a retired admiral. The same retired admiral, not long before retiring, laid out a development plan for the Indian Navy up to 2022 which did not mention EMALS, or even carriers with catapults.

It's perfectly logical for India to be looking at technologies for future use, but to make out that this is something likely to be adopted in the immediate future, as you originally suggested, is not consistent with the evidence.

 

[Crusader2000]

But you make it so easy!

If you knew there was a reputable source, why cite an utterly disreputable one? I think you've only just found the Aviation Week article, & only looked because I tore apart your original source.

This is not "India", it's a retired admiral. The same retired admiral, not long before retiring, laid out a development plan for the Indian Navy up to 2022 which did not mention EMALS, or even carriers with catapults.

It's perfectly logical for India to be looking at technologies for future use, but to make out that this is something likely to be adopted in the immediate future, as you originally suggested, is not consistent with the evidence.

Really, this is getting very old............


Not intested in debating you or being a member of this forum!


You can play your games with somebody else............CHILDREN.

 

[JonMusser]

Incorrect, Boeing has already told India the Super Hornet will work off the ski jump on the Gorshkov 'with a substantial payload'

hey can you give me a source?

 

[irtusk]

hey can you give me a source?

The Hindu : Business News : Indian Navy eyes newer generation aircraft

But Boeing IDS' Head for India, Dr Vivek Lall, told India Strategic that Boeing had done a computer simulation to verify that the Super Hornet could operate from Gorshkov and Indian carriers as and when they are commissioned.

Information Dissemination: Russian Roulette With Indian Aircraft Carriers

Rietz told reporters at Lemoore, which holds half of the US Navy’s striking power in the Pacific, “In our simulation, we discovered that not only could the Super Hornet take-off from a ski-jump, but could do so with a significant weapons load.” Landing the Super Hornet on the Gorshkov would pose no problem since the warship comes equipped with an arrester cable

.

 

[JonMusser]

Thrust vectoring is being developed and would be operational on Eurofighters within the first half of the next decade, Dr Schmidlin said.

from: http://beta.thehindu.com/business/article53220.ece

this is from an article given as a source as far as i know thrust vectoring dosenot mean it can take off vertically!
so this source i can not take seriously the Euro Fighter that has thrust vectoring can NOT taker off vertically!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_vectoring

so i ask for a Stronger Source as this one has many errors already in it and your other source has major errors