Indian Army News and Discussion

[dragonfire]

awsome news. the army is finally seeing the light.

Bro - its the same news on which i had commented, it's just 4 batteries, while its a positive move, the total order still stands at only 6 batteries including the first order from the IA for 2 batteries. Each battery IIRC consists of 4 launcher vehicles and its allied targeting and support vehicles. So a battery would consist of 12 Missiles (3 to a vehicle). There was news that the DRDO is also working on a launcher vehicle based on reworked T-72 tanks, however i am yet to see any pics of that, currently the BMP II is being used for this purpose.

Does anyone know how many missiles are being acquired in the 1.1 Billion USD deal for the Barak missiles by the deal signed by Gen. Deepak Kapoor with Israel

 

[dragonfire]

Does anyone what kind of Multiple Grenade Launchers the IA uses. Recently i saw on Future Weapons on discovery the M32 MGL, which blew my mind, it was shown to fire not only traditional rounds but also HEAT, Illumination as well as IR (lights up the sky with IR light visible only through Night Vision devices) and also a camera round (round with live video transmiting features deploying a parachute). As per Wiki India also uses this weapon (is that correct ?) any ideas on what kind of rounds is used by IA

 

[shag]

What are the stated reaction times and kill ratios for Barak-1 and Akash against standard pilotless target aircrafts?
would appreciate if someone has the numbers for that. range is just part of the game for point defence in navy right?

 

[shag]

btw is navy considering akash as a point defence system?? I have not seen any news reports suggesting that. In fact I haven't even seen a naval launcher or similar system for akash in any pictures or description. I am not sure its even made for that purpose but I guess it can be customized for that. I may be wrong here.

here is the link for akash :

DRDO Akash Surface to Air Missile

I see no mention of a naval platform

 

[aaaditya]

btw is navy considering akash as a point defence system?? I have not seen any news reports suggesting that. In fact I haven't even seen a naval launcher or similar system for akash in any pictures or description. I am not sure its even made for that purpose but I guess it can be customized for that. I may be wrong here.

here is the link for akash :

DRDO Akash Surface to Air Missile

I see no mention of a naval platform

no ,indian navy does not have any intention as of now to use the akash missile for its surface combatants,it is developing the barak-8 with israel for its air defence requirements.

though the navy is acquiring a variant of the 3d car radar of the akash system for its p-28 corvettes.

 

[dragonfire]

Also the Barak can take out missiles as close as 500 mtrs, tht should qualify it as a point defence system. Barak-8 should have extended ranges to the extent of 70 kms, if the Barak-8 pics are anything to go by then it is lighter missile too

 

[aaaditya]

Also the Barak can take out missiles as close as 500 mtrs, tht should qualify it as a point defence system. Barak-8 should have extended ranges to the extent of 70 kms, if the Barak-8 pics are anything to go by then it is lighter missile too

you cant judge a missile by its picture ,look at agni missile ,it looks pencil thin ,but weighs several tons.

i believe that barak-8 will weigh more than 300 kgs(around 500 kgs) ,considering its range,most of the weight being the fuel that the missile carries.

 

[dragonfire]

you cant judge a missile by its picture ,look at agni missile ,it looks pencil thin ,but weighs several tons.

i believe that barak-8 will weigh more than 300 kgs(around 500 kgs) ,considering its range,most of the weight being the fuel that the missile carries.

I had put smiley on tht comment aaditya

@ 500 kgs it is still lighter than the akash which is IIRC 700kgs+

Havent seen any specs on the Barak-8 though, except the range is suggested to be around 70 kms

 

[Rish]

I don't know if anyone else saw this:

Not battle-ready before 2027, admits Indian Army: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

Its an internal assessment report of the army's preparedness. Anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of the report? comments would be appreciated.

 

[OPSSG]

According to a Defense News article, "India To Let Singapore Technologies Join Howitzer Trials" and the Deccan Chronicle article quoted below:

Defence ministry nod for artillery trials

December 23rd, 2009 - New Delhi: The defence ministry has given the go-ahead for trials of 155mm towed guns in which blacklisted armaments firm Singapore Technologies Kinetics is the sole contender in the fray, an official said on Wednesday. However, a deal will be signed only after the probe in the corruption case against the company is over.

The development is important in the context of the Indian Army's crucial artillery modernisation programme.

"Acting on specific request from the army, defence ministry has given the nod for the trials of 155mm towed guns," said a senior Indian Army officer, requesting anonymity. The Indian Army's 23-year wait for new artillery guns had got longer with the blacklisting of the Singapore firm on corruption charges.

Singapore Technologies was one of seven firms the defence ministry blacklisted on June 5 after its name cropped up in a case registered by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) against the former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chief, Mr Sudipto Ghosh, under the Prevention of Corruption Act. Singapore Technologies is also a contender for a Rs 80 billion order for 400 155mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns and the manufacture in this country of another 1,100 howitzers through the transfer of technology route. However, the official added: "The contract will be signed only after the CBI probe in the corruption case is over."

The Indian Army had purchased 410 Bofors 155mm howitzers in 1986 but the deal was mired in corruption charges and the name of then prime minister Rajiv Gandhi was dragged in. The Supreme Court eventually found no wrongdoing but the taint stuck to Bofors, as a result of which it was not considered for the new order...

...The Indian Army is now left with just about half of its 410 guns, with normal wear and tear and cannibalisation accounting for the remaining howitzers.

Indian forum members may not know that ST Kinetics:

(i) had in the past assisted Turkey in the design and manufacture of its own 155mm/52calibre "PANTER" towed howitzer system, which is understood to be based on Singapore's FH-2000 design (so Singapore has a track record of successfully assisting a NATO member);

(ii) makes a wide range of artillery pieces which also includes the Primus, which is a 155mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery (with a combat weight of only 28.3 tons), and the Pegasus, which is a 155mm/39 calibre helicopter-transportable howitzer (which is in the 1st of three Indian RfPs - 140 ultra-light weight howitzers); and

(iii) has teamed up with BAE to sell ST Kinetics' 120mm Super Rapid Advanced Mortar System (click to see brochure) to UAE, which is marketed as AGRAB (Scorpion) by the UAE based International Golden Group.​

This means that Singapore artillery technology has a track record of being sold abroad and the Singapore based technology can be the basis for future Indian artillery exports to other countries once your own domestic industry matures. IMO, there is really very little risk as Singapore artillery conducts exercises in India and also in NZ, ensuring that these Singapore designed guns are tested in a variety of conditions (including in India). Below is video footage of Singapore's Second Minister for Defence Ng Eng Hen at Ex Agni Warrior, a bilateral artillery exercise involving the Pegasus and held in India in 2008 (click here for 2009 exercise details):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbQJH_6kxQ]Bilateral Artillery Exercise in India 2008[/ame]
For more videos and a fuller artillery discussion in DT see here (on calibre of the guns, extended range munitions and the effect of distance on accuracy).

BTW, for logistics and ammo versatility reasons, Singapore has chosen to standardize on the 155mm round for howitzers and 120mm for mortar rounds. This means that we have substantial ongoing developmental efforts for these artillery rounds (See a brochure on Singapore made cargo rounds here).

I think that the current treatment of ST Kinetics by the Indian authorities is a crying shame. I believe that ultimately, the Central Bureau of Investigation investigation on the former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is unrelated to ST Kinetics. I really cannot understand these corrupt accusations, given that in 2009 Singapore is ranked 3rd among 180 countries, on the worldwide Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) by Transparency International (with No. 1 being least corrupt and No. 180 being most corrupt). If Indian authorities are serious about prosecution, they just give the relevant Singapore authorities a call. I can guarantee you that any corruption prosecution will occur faster in the Singapore court system. Further, I note that Ajai Shukla in an article about 'blacklists' also correctly points out that:

"...the Indian MoD is wholly wrong in behaving as if the problem is just one of predatory arms corporations. All those bribes are being paid to somebody; but no Indian MoD official is in jail for having accepted a bribe. Instead South Block’s vendor blacklists grow longer and longer..."​

and also that:

“...Today, anyone who wants to block an important Indian arms purchase has only to level an allegation against the vendor”, complains an Indian army officer furiously. “Anonymous letters, motivated charges, press reports, whatever… just kick-start an investigation and the MoD will kill the procurement. This is now routine business practice for rival arms dealers and, sooner or later, Pakistan and China will realise how easy it is to stop vital purchases from going through...”​

Fyi, I previously posted my thoughts earlier in this thread and I do not intend to repeat them.

 

[funtz]

Its so pathetic this artillery tender that has been going around for decades, one should seperate politics from military procurement.

It seems every single aspect of what is wrong with the India's Ministry of Defence and the procurement/development process it runs, has come to bear on this tender, i wonder how much it has hampered the ability of the Indian Army as a effective fighting force?

Even with the right to information steps that have been implemented its difficult to include the MoD, due to nature of their work.

I hope now this tender is finished asap.

 

[Firn]

According to a Defense News article, "India To Let Singapore Technologies Join Howitzer Trials" and the Deccan Chronicle article quoted below:



Indian forum members may not know that ST Kinetics:

(i) had in the past assisted Turkey in the design and manufacture of its own 155mm/52calibre "PANTER" towed howitzer system, which is understood to be based on Singapore's FH-2000 design (so Singapore has a track record of successfully assisting a NATO member);

(ii) makes a wide range of artillery pieces which also includes the Primus, which is a 155mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery (with a combat weight of only 28.3 tons), and the Pegasus, which is a 155mm/39 calibre helicopter-transportable howitzer (which is in the 1st of three Indian RfPs - 140 ultra-light weight howitzers); and

(iii) has teamed up with BAE to sell ST Kinetics' 120mm Super Rapid Advanced Mortar System (click to see brochure) to UAE, which is marketed as AGRAB (Scorpion) by the UAE based International Golden Group.​

This means that Singapore artillery technology has a track record of being sold abroad and the Singapore based technology can be the basis for future Indian artillery exports to other countries once your own domestic industry matures. IMO, there is really very little risk as Singapore artillery conducts exercises in India and also in NZ, ensuring that these Singapore designed guns are tested in a variety of conditions (including in India). For videos and a fuller artillery discussion in DT see here (on calibre of the guns, extended range munitions and the effect of distance on accuracy).

There is little doubt that ST Kinetics has developed quite some capability in the realm of ground-delivered indirect fire support.

BTW, for logistics and ammo versatility reasons, Singapore has chosen to standardize on the 155mm round for howitzers and 120mm for mortar rounds. This means that we have substantial ongoing developmental efforts for these artillery rounds (See a brochure on Singapore made cargo rounds here).

IIRC the Indian army planned to do likewise. Most of it's artillery equipment is largely outdated and during the Kargil conflict the (than) modern Bofors carried the day with devastating firesupport. One Indian officer quipped that the jawans treated the 155mm howitzers as their section's weapon.

I think that the current treatment of ST Kinetics by the Indian authorities is a crying shame. I believe that ultimately, the Central Bureau of Investigation investigation on the former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is unrelated to ST Kinetics. I really cannot understand these corrupt accusations, given that in 2009 Singapore is ranked 3rd among 180 countries, on the worldwide Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) by Transparency International (with No. 1 being least corrupt and No. 180 being most corrupt). If Indian authorities are serious about prosecution, they just give the relevant Singapore authorities a call. I can guarantee you that any corruption prosecution will occur faster in the Singapore court system. Further, I note that Ajai Shukla in an article about 'blacklists' also correctly points out that:

"...the Indian MoD is wholly wrong in behaving as if the problem is just one of predatory arms corporations. All those bribes are being paid to somebody; but no Indian MoD official is in jail for having accepted a bribe. Instead South Block’s vendor blacklists grow longer and longer..."​

and also that:

“...Today, anyone who wants to block an important Indian arms purchase has only to level an allegation against the vendor”, complains an Indian army officer furiously. “Anonymous letters, motivated charges, press reports, whatever… just kick-start an investigation and the MoD will kill the procurement. This is now routine business practice for rival arms dealers and, sooner or later, Pakistan and China will realise how easy it is to stop vital purchases from going through...”​

It seems that the cultural and poltical environment makes the Indian procurement process a very muddy affair with only one secure outcome - a longwinded and costly process. Bribes seem to be an almost natural part of it, as well as media outcry and shadowy maneuvering behind the scenes.

I really hope that the Indian army will get from a reliable partner at a good prices what fits them best.


Firn

 

[OPSSG]

@funtz. I'm responding as I realize that many in India to not understand the value proposition that Singapore brings to the table. I hope I have not be unfair in my comments about the behaviour of Indian authorities in my post.

There is little doubt that ST Kinetics has developed quite some capability in the realm of ground-delivered indirect fire support.

@Firn, I think it is clear that we can't really compete head-on against American defence contractors (we don't have the volume and we don't have the same funding support). However, in the niches that ST Kinetics occupies, Singapore makes a respectable range of products in actual use by our own guys that is constantly being improved upon. Here's a video that shows the range of artillery pieces we use (you should take note of the battery simulator appearing at 5:37 of the video and at 6:49 on the direct support capabilities (DS) of the 21st Battalion Singapore Artillery):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRxOaR0uAUU]Singapore Artillery[/ame]
Basically, we are very good at cost management through the use of simulators in training, the integration of weapon locating radar teams to provide responsive counter battery fire and we have ongoing network developmental efforts to ensure the artillery fire in DS is responsive and accurate via linking the sensors like our STrike ObserveRs Mission (STORM) teams and our shooters at the division level.

It seems that the cultural and political environment makes the Indian procurement process a very muddy affair with only one secure outcome - a longwinded and costly process.

I think I have said enough.

I really hope that the Indian army will get from a reliable partner at a good prices what fits them best.

I hope that the Indian army will be allowed to acquire new weapons. Honestly, I don't care if ST Kinetics wins any of the Indian artillery RfPs and the Indians should buy whichever product that best meets their needs (as articulated in their written requirements). In fact, I would go so far as to predict that India would soon consider taking the FMS route to acquire ultra-light howitzers from the US.

It is unfortunate that there are so few in Indian media, who are as capable as Ajai Shukla. And, if things are to improve, Indian media needs to do some thinking, analyse the problems at a systemic level, understand the agendas of their informants and speak out on the failures in their procurement system rather than just focusing on scandals.

 

[Firn]

Basically, we are very good at cost management through the use of simulators in training, the integration of weapon locating radar teams to provide responsive counter battery fire and we have ongoing network developmental efforts to ensure the artillery fire in DS is responsive and accurate via linking the sensors like our STrike ObserveRs Mission (STORM) teams and our shooters at the division level.

In this post I already posted that a capable artillery arm integrated in the functional whole seemed to me to be of great importance for Singapore, especially considering it's peculiar nature.

What surprised me was the inclusion of the heavy 120mm SPM (self-propelled mortars) into the 21st Battalion. While I know far to few to comment this decision, it might pay off if the fire support must be delivered in and into a highly structured envrionment as a city. The capabilities of the 120mm mortar have been discussed here.

I have still to make my mind up about the Pegasus. It might be a sensible addition for mountain/light infantry formations, but it is hard to make a good guess with so little insight.


Firn

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,it seems that the arjun must have done well against the t-72's and the t-90's in the comparative trials ,as the indian army is planning to increase the order for arjun-1 from 120 to 250 and a further 250 0f arjun-2.

here is the link and the article:

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Given the above perspective army has firmed plans to equip its strike formations with T-90Ss and upgrade its T-72M1s with full and partial solution fire-control systems that would give them a night-fighting capability they presently lack. The army currently operates two types of Soviet and Russian-origin MBTs-the Ajeya T-72M1 built locally under license by the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, and the Bhishma T-90S series of which 310 were imported in 2001. Also under construction at HVF are 124 units of the Indian locally-designed Arjun MBT, which recently underwent comparative trials with the T-72 and T-90S. These desert trials, it is learned, were fairly successful which has pushed the army to raise the initial order to 250 enough for six regiments with a possible product improved order for another 250 as Mark II version.

 

[Firn]

Does anybody here now how integrated the IDF/fire support is in the Indian army?

There is a lot of talk around tanks and helicopters but very little information on the way the fire support is organized, integrated and supported. While the 155mm howitzer is an very necessary and potentially very devastating element of the whole system it is, as written before just an element.

Firn

 

[dragonfire]

hey guys,it seems that the arjun must have done well against the t-72's and the t-90's in the comparative trials ,as the indian army is planning to increase the order for arjun-1 from 120 to 250 and a further 250 0f arjun-2.

here is the link and the article:

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Given the above perspective army has firmed plans to equip its strike formations with T-90Ss and upgrade its T-72M1s with full and partial solution fire-control systems that would give them a night-fighting capability they presently lack. The army currently operates two types of Soviet and Russian-origin MBTs-the Ajeya T-72M1 built locally under license by the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, and the Bhishma T-90S series of which 310 were imported in 2001. Also under construction at HVF are 124 units of the Indian locally-designed Arjun MBT, which recently underwent comparative trials with the T-72 and T-90S. These desert trials, it is learned, were fairly successful which has pushed the army to raise the initial order to 250 enough for six regiments with a possible product improved order for another 250 as Mark II version.

Aditya i doubt the veracity of this order and that of the comparitive trials, for one there arent any news article on either a trial taking place and the results thereof or that of an order for additional Arjun tanks being made. Secondly wasnt the comparitive trials avioded by the IA earlier and the Arjun tank issue brought to rest by giving an order for 124 tanks and stating that all future tank purchases would be from futuristic need perspective and that tanks ordered would have to be revleavant for times to come.

 

[kay_man]

Aditya i doubt the veracity of this order and that of the comparitive trials, for one there arent any news article on either a trial taking place and the results thereof or that of an order for additional Arjun tanks being made. Secondly wasnt the comparitive trials avioded by the IA earlier and the Arjun tank issue brought to rest by giving an order for 124 tanks and stating that all future tank purchases would be from futuristic need perspective and that tanks ordered would have to be revleavant for times to come.

hmmm
this would be a big new if the order was doubled for arjun....most newspaper and channels would report.

the competitive trials were to be held last year in august-september......and probably were held.
the result have not been disclosed however.

 

[dragonfire]

hmmm
this would be a big new if the order was doubled for arjun....most newspaper and channels would report.

the competitive trials were to be held last year in august-september......and probably were held.
the result have not been disclosed however.

The trials of the Arjun Tank made the news esp how the engines heated up and so and so and DRDO was publicly defending their product stating that the arjun tank's issues were'nt extraordinary but issues that came up with other tanks as well. This is how the whole comparitive trials for the tanks came up, it was like the DRDO was challenging the IA and the T-90 tanks and asking for a level laying field which the comparitive trials are. The next sequence was that the IA didnt go for a comparitive trial but rather gave an order for 124 tanks and stated that the Arjun tanks are very good but the IA wouldnt be ordering more because the future requirements would be different. Now if a comparitive trial happened then wouldnt the DRDO tom-tom any achievement or any order which would resulted post said trial. Eitherways even if a comparitive trial can be hushed up a further order of 250 tanks cannot be hushed up, that news will come into the public domain. Hence my opinion that there havent been any further orders or any comparitive trials

 

[Spetsznaz]

India really needs to stick to the weapons Russia is Selling to them, mixing up other helicopters such as the Apache spells trouble

But hey thats what I think