Israel fears of Iran & it's acquisition of 5 S-300s

[Ibizan Hound]

Have any of you up here ever wondered that since israel is deathly afraid of Iran and the idea of Iran recieving the rest of the S-300s that haven't been delivered, why hasn't israel focused more on attacking Iran while they are vulnerable rather than Palestine? Israel's greatest fear is of Iran
being a nuclear nightmare, yet Iran is most vulnerable to an attack right now while they lack S-300s. This is why I feel that israel doesn't want Iran attacked due to "nuclear fears." Either Iran
is going to be attacked or it isn't. To say that the S-300 is a "game changer" should be the
main reason why an operation is carried out while they are progressing in their nuclear
programs and still lack the S-300 system.

The israelis make a pretty bogus claim that they knocked out Syria's nuclear site, though up
until the attack no one knew anything of Syria even having a nuclear program, raw material or
even the know-how of nuclear physics. Yet, they feed the claim that they effectively destroyed a nuclear site with a few ATSM. If you believe that israel REALLY attacked a mythical Syrian nuke site, then the question for you is why haven't israel even budged against Iran's nuke sites?
Especially, when Iran is the one that is going through with a military upgrade along WITH it's
well-known nuclear program. Is it israel not capable of doing it and feel that they need time to
convince the USA that "Iran is a threat?" Is it because they feel a war is needed on standby, so
playing Iran up to being a villian serves the purpose? Most of all, if Iran is a nuclear threat why isn't the nation regarded a a nuclear threat by israel? The lack of manner that israel is showing Iran makes one wonder if "the threat" is real.

When Iraq was claimed to have weapons of mass destruction and wanted to rule the world according to the C.I.A., did the USA fiddle and play around with Iraq just as israel is with Iran?
During the Cuban missile crises when Cuba had a range of nuclear missiles that could certainly reach the USA we stood them down until Russia withdrew their missiles FROM Cuba.
I don't agree with the things the USA do, but wouldn't you agree that israel isn't handling Iran
and it's nuclear program in a professional way? It's almost 2010 and we hear the same things today that we heard in 2001 from the IDF. Had it been the other way around, the West and israel would be calling Iran a "warmonger" nation. China doesn't play around with Taiwan in that manner. North Korea doesn't play around with South Korea in that manner. They are serious
about where they stand in their political/military situations. They regard them as private matters and warn the USA to stay out. Israel isn't nearly addressing their conflict against Iran in such
measure

Instead of keeping the tense situation between the two between the two, they want the USA, UK and pals to get involved. Then periodically we hear Iran is a year away from nukes, about
to recieve advanced SAMs, they need to be attacked. If Iran hasn't made nukes in 2006 when israel claimed they were 1 year away, then Iran has no intention of building one. Plus, if israel were to attack Iran, what they have now apparently is as much an effective preventative to thwart Israelis from attacking as much as the S-300 would be. In my opinion the S-300 is just the icing on the cake. I doubt israel would be serious about a war against Iran with or without the S-300
system. Israel experience with Hazbollah forewarns what a conflict with Iran would bring and reveal that every nation isn't a Palestine. Meaning that military conflict isn't even an option on
the table for israel. In my opinion the IDF and prime ministers of israel know that they are not seriously interested in a war against Iran and therefore should be more professional about the matter.

 

[plasmahawk]

I think that the middle east is one of the most intricate webs you can try to untangle.

South Korea & North - were at war (still kind of at war) - cards are on the table everyone knows why North is "showing-off" and what concessions they want.

Cuba - I wont even indulge this as it is deep history, but similarly I would have liked to see US bases removed in sign of good will by the US from Turkey, East Germany etc. Cuba after the "missile" crisis had no missiles, all of Nato+Turkey had still tactical and strategic missiles, bombers there with an easy reach of the USSR.

Honestly, using Cuba here is not applicable, Iran and Israel are not big dogs of the cold war.

Taiwan - Well that is a wait and see, everyone knows who wants Taiwan. Unless US figures out a way to get its debt fixed up I think US will suggest for Taiwan to join mother China just to get some trade concessions and sell some more bonds.

So back to middle east, Israel might do something or they might not, and since US has setup base in IRAQ, there is no way that Isreal can fly over IRAQ on the way to IRAN without the US getting involved, as Obama now a days is a pro UN, lets talk things out kind of a guy, I think it would be bad for the US reputation if they let IAF fly over them without much of a word of concern and let the IAF bomb another sovereign nation...

If the IAF did not do this under the Mr. Bush's wise rule, then I doubt very much they will do it under Mr. Obama's kind and hug gable rule.

Hmm.. I think thinking about Obama is making me too cutey-poo.
Plas

 

[plasmahawk]

I

South Korea & North - were at war (still kind of at war) - cards are on the table everyone knows why North is "showing-off" and what concessions they want.

Cuba - I wont even indulge this as it is deep history, but similarly I would have liked to see US bases removed in sign of good

- I am only 28, I think I meant to say "IN HINDSIGHT" i would have liked to see...

 

[Ibizan Hound]

So back to middle east, Israel might do something or they might not, and since US has setup base in IRAQ, there is no way that Isreal can fly over IRAQ on the way to IRAN without the US getting involved, as Obama now a days is a pro UN, lets talk things out kind of a guy, I think it would be bad for the US reputation if they let IAF fly over them without much of a word of concern and let the IAF bomb another sovereign nation...

If the IAF did not do this under the Mr. Bush's wise rule, then I doubt very much they will do it under Mr. Obama's kind and hug gable rule.

Hmm.. I think thinking about Obama is making me too cutey-poo.
Plas

Israel will attack no one stronger than Palestine and that's evidnet in their lack of respect for their percieved threat of Iran. Israel would have attacked under Bush because they would have left the USA with the bag to hold. Obama would make it clear to israel that it is their war. It would involve US due to iran retaliating against both nations, but the US wouldn't go broke trying to support israel. Out of curiousity are you ethnically Chinese? You sound American.

 

[plasmahawk]

Israel will attack no one stronger than Palestine and that's evidnet in their lack of respect for their percieved threat of Iran. Israel would have attacked under Bush because they would have left the USA with the bag to hold. Obama would make it clear to israel that it is their war. It would involve US due to iran retaliating against both nations, but the US wouldn't go broke trying to support israel. Out of curiousity are you ethnically Chinese? You sound American.

Negative good buddy comrade. Russian!

Im the younger and sexier one ... Next to an Ex IDF operative here actually: so I really am friends with Isreali army even if I critique em.. actually i critique them more after I drink with them

 

[StevoJH]

Why should Israel be afraid of Iranian S-300's?If Israel ever goes to war with Iran it will with the aid or at least consent of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and/or Iraq as they need to fly through their airspace to get to Iran.

If Saudi Arabia decided to stop them, Israel would be in BIG trouble. Israel can take out S-300 sites with SEAD equiped F-16's or with cruise missiles.

 

[Balancer]

hm, very strange thing: US and Israelare demanding from Russia not to supply defensive S300 SAM and at the same time US and Israel are supplying Georgia with both offensive and defensive weapons.......

in that case i am sure in 6-12 months Iran will receive all ordered S300 , i will also add some innumerous RPG29 / RPG32 / Igla-1S / Kornet E etc as a gift

But i am sure that if US agrees not to prepare new georgians attack on South Osetia, Russia can stop all supplies to Iran.

 

[Feanor]

I suspect a lot of posturing behind teh scenes right now is dedicated to just that sort of agreement. I suspect however that in the end Iran won't get the systems.

 

[Ibizan Hound]

Why should Israel be afraid of Iranian S-300's?If Israel ever goes to war with Iran it will with the aid or at least consent of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and/or Iraq as they need to fly through their airspace to get to Iran.

If Saudi Arabia decided to stop them, Israel would be in BIG trouble. Israel can take out S-300 sites with SEAD equiped F-16's or with cruise missiles.

Iraq has already stated that they refuse such a thing. Plus, everyone in the region want their nations to grow ecobomically.
They aren't interested in aiding israel with engaging a mishap against Iran. That's why for israel it's either an "You will or won't" case. Israel doesn't have much to face Iran will as it is now. Iran's
current airdefence weapons are sophisticated enough to keep israel's aircraft where they currently are, which is in israel. I doubt israel's "wonder weapons" will showcase any grand performance against Iran in warfare. When they attempted to attack trucks carrying North Korean missiles in Syria, the IAF failed to damage Syria's radar/airdefence network. That's with Syria only having a FEW Pantsyrs. Cruise missiles from israel would be of no use destroying Iran's largely underground nucler sites. Israel considered using Jerichoes because they believe
the missile could evade Iran's airdefences and S-300s they may possess.

Israel have no option but to act civilized and ignore Iran's nuclear program. They dare not fly over Iran, Jerichoes wouldn't penetrate deep enough, the USA isn't attacking another nation for israel. There is no alternative to letting the them enjoy the peaceful moment, unless israel feel there is truly a nuclear threat from Iran. But we all know that that is not the case.
nation enjoy the peaceful moment.

 

[PhysicsMan]

Why should Israel be afraid of Iranian S-300's?If Israel ever goes to war with Iran it will with the aid or at least consent of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and/or Iraq as they need to fly through their airspace to get to Iran.

If Saudi Arabia decided to stop them, Israel would be in BIG trouble. Israel can take out S-300 sites with SEAD equiped F-16's or with cruise missiles.

The latest variants of S-300 are said to be immune to the current SEAD munitions, and able to handle the subsonic cruise missiles Israel is equipped with.

 

[PhysicsMan]

hm, very strange thing: US and Israelare demanding from Russia not to supply defensive S300 SAM and at the same time US and Israel are supplying Georgia with both offensive and defensive weapons.......

in that case i am sure in 6-12 months Iran will receive all ordered S300 , i will also add some innumerous RPG29 / RPG32 / Igla-1S / Kornet E etc as a gift

But i am sure that if US agrees not to prepare new georgians attack on South Osetia, Russia can stop all supplies to Iran.

Israel is NOT supplying Georgia with any weapons, not after the conflict, and neither is US, not directly at least.

 

[PhysicsMan]

Iraq has already stated that they refuse such a thing. Plus, everyone in the region want their nations to grow ecobomically.
They aren't interested in aiding israel with engaging a mishap against Iran. That's why for israel it's either an "You will or won't" case. Israel doesn't have much to face Iran will as it is now. Iran's
current airdefence weapons are sophisticated enough to keep israel's aircraft where they currently are, which is in israel. I doubt israel's "wonder weapons" will showcase any grand performance against Iran in warfare. When they attempted to attack trucks carrying North Korean missiles in Syria, the IAF failed to damage Syria's radar/airdefence network. That's with Syria only having a FEW Pantsyrs. Cruise missiles from israel would be of no use destroying Iran's largely underground nucler sites. Israel considered using Jerichoes because they believe
the missile could evade Iran's airdefences and S-300s they may possess.

Israel have no option but to act civilized and ignore Iran's nuclear program. They dare not fly over Iran, Jerichoes wouldn't penetrate deep enough, the USA isn't attacking another nation for israel. There is no alternative to letting the them enjoy the peaceful moment, unless israel feel there is truly a nuclear threat from Iran. But we all know that that is not the case.
nation enjoy the peaceful moment.

You underestimate Israeli capabilities very seriously. My bet is that in its current state the Iranian air defenses would be rather inadequate and helpless if they faced an Israeli attack (if that ever materialized). They lack long range SAMs, they lack long range radars of any quality, and they probably lack the expertise to deal with an air force of Israel's sophistication. And if you like to bring up Syria as an example, well, they had no clue Israeli jets were attacking their nuclear reactor in '07 until they heard KABOOM - they simply didn't know they were there

 

[StevoJH]

The latest variants of S-300 are said to be immune to the current SEAD munitions, and able to handle the subsonic cruise missiles Israel is equipped with.

How can a "target" be immune to high explosive? Did they armour the radar?

 

[Ibizan Hound]

They lack long range SAMs, they lack long range radars of any quality, and they probably lack the expertise to deal with an air force of Israel's sophistication. And if you like to bring up Syria as an example, well, they had no clue Israeli jets were attacking their nuclear reactor in '07 until they heard KABOOM - they simply didn't know they were there

The IAF isn't that capable of a force. Against Hamas they appear strong to israelis, but not to the world. Iran's radar's are by FAR more advanced than Israel's radars. Why do you think the Pine Green System that was overhyped has been shelved or cancelled? Most of Iran's radars are domestically made with a few purchased from the Balkans. Israel's radars and system's failed them in 2006's 33-Day war against Lebanon. You are confusing Iran with Pakistan. A nation that can not defend it's airspace or ground territory from US penetration.

Israel's airforce is more of a blooper today than anything. When they attempted to attack Syria's
stored missiles they fled as soon as radar detected them. Even then their fuel tanks fell off while they were in retreat. Knowing Iran's airdefence forces are FAR, FAR more advanced than Syria's is reason enough why israel is staying away. Especially when they would not be able to
escape Iran's long range SAMs such as S-200s, SA-6s and such. That's why Obama is trying to
convince israel of a more civil approach. There's no way israel would think of war against Iran UNLESS the USA has the frontline. No way at all.

 

[Bonza]

Israel's airforce is more of a blooper today than anything. When they attempted to attack Syria's stored missiles they fled as soon as radar detected them. Even then their fuel tanks fell off while they were in retreat.

What, you think a better air force would have stuck around while being painted by SAM radars? In your opinion, what should the Israeli pilots have done once they were detected?

And I think you'll find they probably jettisoned their external tanks for the purpose of manoeuvre. The way you put it, you make it sound as though their jets are falling apart...

I have no wish to see Israel and Iran at war (quite the contrary), but the IAF is one of the most combat-seasoned air forces in the world. From a reader's perspective, insulting the IAF as a service by way of the example you quoted above detracts from your point, rather than adding to it.

 

[stoker]

The IAF isn't that capable of a force. Against Hamas they appear strong to israelis, but not to the world. Iran's radar's are by FAR more advanced than Israel's radars. Why do you think the Pine Green System that was overhyped has been shelved or cancelled? Most of Iran's radars are domestically made with a few purchased from the Balkans. Israel's radars and system's failed them in 2006's 33-Day war against Lebanon. You are confusing Iran with Pakistan. A nation that can not defend it's airspace or ground territory from US penetration.

Israel's airforce is more of a blooper today than anything. When they attempted to attack Syria's
stored missiles they fled as soon as radar detected them. Even then their fuel tanks fell off while they were in retreat. Knowing Iran's airdefence forces are FAR, FAR more advanced than Syria's is reason enough why israel is staying away. Especially when they would not be able to
escape Iran's long range SAMs such as S-200s, SA-6s and such. That's why Obama is trying to
convince israel of a more civil approach. There's no way israel would think of war against Iran UNLESS the USA has the frontline. No way at all.

You do not know what you are talking about, or ,you are just trolling trying to get a rise out of forum members.

Just two points for you to go and research -

1: The Iranian armed forces are in a terrible state, and their Leader is a fundamentalist nutter.

2: If you think Israel can't fight just go and check up on the Six Day war, when Israel took on and totally anihlate over six Arab countries Armed Force, and at that time Isreal was armed mainly with obsolete French aircraft.

In recent times Israel has also destroyed Iraki nuclear facilitioes and more recent Syria nuclear facilities.
You will noted Syria did NOT have the courage to mount any reprisal against Israel, that is except a large amount of the usual 'taqqiya' and the usual bleating about Israel still holding the Golan Heights

 

[Ibizan Hound]

What, you think a better air force would have stuck around while being painted by SAM radars? In your opinion, what should the Israeli pilots have done once they were detected?

Yes. When the US was at war with Iraq in 1991, their aircraft confronted anti-aircraft fire and they didn't turn and flee. Likewise Israel would have done the same had they not been scared. Instead they misfired their missiles, not knowing what they hit and left so fast that their feul tanks dropped off of the planes. On top of it, israel didn't have to flee at all. Syria opened fire with AAA guns rather than SAMs. Meaning that the IAF aircraft were already out of range of being struck, but were so cowardly that escape was all that they could think about. Had that been Iran, they would have been pursued by SAMs instead of bullet. The point is knowing you couldn't even carry out an operation against Syria effectively why even play around as if you could confront Iran? That's stupid.

If you think Israel can't fight just go and check up on the Six Day war, when Israel took on and totally anihlate over six Arab countries Armed Force, and at that time Isreal was armed mainly with obsolete French aircraft.

In recent times Israel has also destroyed Iraki nuclear facilitioes and more recent Syria nuclear facilities.
You will noted Syria did NOT have the courage to mount any reprisal against Israel, that is except a large amount of the usual 'taqqiya' and the usual bleating about Israel still holding the Golan Heights

I do not view israel as being a formidable nation when it comes to war and a few other things actually. Israel won the 6-Day War because you had it planned out while the muslim states were taken by surprise. In most of those wars israel had the numbers that Arab states HAD to COMBINE forces to be close enough in numbers against israel's numbers.
You think that would happen today? Are that foolish. Israel was terrified of Hussein when Iraq bombarded israel with SCUDs. Those cowards in israel attacked Iraq in 1981 because Iraq was ALREADY at war against Iran! That was sly and nothing to be proud of. Iraq had it's hands full.

You said that Syria was scared to retaliate against israel. That's your admission that israel initiated a provocation against Syria. Yet, Syria hs no reason to strike israel. Israel carried out a failed mission, their missiles went astray, and their aircraft fled before Syria knew it was israel and not the USA. See buddy, Syria is scared of the USAF but not the IDF. Syria hesitates because they sometimes don't know if the attacks are by the US Armed Forces. But Syria sternly warned israel not to do it again after finding out it was israel. Israel has been smart enough to abstain from such stunts. That was Syria imagine if it was Iran that israel had bumped into the
wrong way.:whip

 

[PhysicsMan]

Yes. When the US was at war with Iraq in 1991, their aircraft confronted anti-aircraft fire and they didn't turn and flee. Likewise Israel would have done the same had they not been scared. Instead they misfired their missiles, not knowing what they hit and left so fast that their feul tanks dropped off of the planes. On top of it, israel didn't have to flee at all. Syria opened fire with AAA guns rather than SAMs. Meaning that the IAF aircraft were already out of range of being struck, but were so cowardly that escape was all that they could think about. Had that been Iran, they would have been pursued by SAMs instead of bullet. The point is knowing you couldn't even carry out an operation against Syria effectively why even play around as if you could confront Iran? That's stupid.
I do not view israel as being a formidable nation when it comes to war and a few other things actually. Israel won the 6-Day War because you had it planned out while the muslim states were taken by surprise. In most of those wars israel had the numbers that Arab states HAD to COMBINE forces to be close enough in numbers against israel's numbers.
You think that would happen today? Are that foolish. Israel was terrified of Hussein when Iraq bombarded israel with SCUDs. Those cowards in israel attacked Iraq in 1981 because Iraq was ALREADY at war against Iran! That was sly and nothing to be proud of. Iraq had it's hands full.

You said that Syria was scared to retaliate against israel. That's your admission that israel initiated a provocation against Syria. Yet, Syria hs no reason to strike israel. Israel carried out a failed mission, their missiles went astray, and their aircraft fled before Syria knew it was israel and not the USA. See buddy, Syria is scared of the USAF but not the IDF. Syria hesitates because they sometimes don't know if the attacks are by the US Armed Forces. But Syria sternly warned israel not to do it again after finding out it was israel. Israel has been smart enough to abstain from such stunts. That was Syria imagine if it was Iran that israel had bumped into the
wrong way.:whip

You should consider discontinuing this topic, as it has the feel of an extremely biased this-vs-this rhetoric that is neither factual nor intelligent. Otherwise the mods will do it for you.

 

[PhysicsMan]

How can a "target" be immune to high explosive? Did they armour the radar?

That explosive needs to be delivered first, and that's what F-16s would not be able to do effectively against S-300s.

 

[Marc 1]

Physicsman and Ibizan Hound, I applaud you for your nationalism and faith in your country (assume you are both Iranian), however, despite being no particular fan of the Israeli's or the way they operate, I believe you guys are seriously underestimating their capabilities and the skills of their armed forces.

Have you considered there may be other reasons why they have not launched strikes against Iran other than your hypothesis that they are 'scared' of you guys?