Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

When talking about the replacement for Manooka and sister ship adn Tobruk,you need to consider that these ships are only about a third the size of the LHD's. A Bay class would probably be closer to twice their size. In preference to getting a third expensive LHD, a couple of smaller ships would be more sensible, as the RAN still would have the requirement for places like the Solomons, where a LHD would be overkill.

There still is a replacement for the LCH to be done. that will supplement the LHD or any other that would deploy to assist. and allow mothership to shore offloads in Pacific region and around the islands where LHD would struggle.
Its really a entire replacement for the Amphib fleet in general. LPA, LCH, LCM fleets are being replaced, and the vessels being acquired will be built to work around the LHD, with any 3rd vessel would need to suit an already planned fleet.

 

[LancasterBomber]

Positional modularity and efficiency of spacial use in sub design to aid tactical ability in warfare i.e delayed onset of personnel fatigue allows for increased operational tempo and/or superior tactical decision making due to a reduction (or absence) in perceived pressure of the environment (mitigating to a degree the onset of mental fatigue).

Uniformity in workstations across an entire platform = bad design.

I thought this was interesting anyway:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaMuS3wZ-bM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - AWE Self-Reconfiguring Robotic Wall[/ame]

Please Note: My intention is not to interrupt the good discussions currently under way on surface fleet acquisitions. I am enjoying that debate/discussion!

Carry on.

 

[ThePuss]

Much cheaper to run, too. Look at this photo of the entire crew of Lyme Bay. About a quarter of the crew of Juan Carlos.


Yep. Well, almost.


And so can an austere LSD, though in some cases you need to load it up with some expensive equipment - just as you have to to enable an LHD to do those things.

Agreed that the the crew of a Bay is much smaller than a Juan Carlos and that the RAN would struggle to man a 3rd LHD.

However if you count the men in the linked photo there is only 30 when the same RN web site says that the crew is approx 60.

Sorry not trying to "Nit Pick" :rel Its just as a sailor myself when I looked at that photo I thought how in hell do they do everything.

The rest of the crew must of been on an RDO....damn civy"s! :smokie

 

[icelord]

Agreed that the the crew of a Bay is much smaller than a Juan Carlos and that the RAN would struggle to man a 3rd LHD.

However if you count the men in the linked photo there is only 30 when the same RN web site says that the crew is approx 60.

Sorry not trying to "Nit Pick" :rel Its just as a sailor myself when I looked at that photo I thought how in hell do they do everything.

The rest of the crew must of been on an RDO....damn civy"s! :smokie

That and theres 1 officer for every 2 crew...now thats MicroManagement!

 

[PeterM]

Agreed that the the crew of a Bay is much smaller than a Juan Carlos and that the RAN would struggle to man a 3rd LHD.

However if you count the men in the linked photo there is only 30 when the same RN web site says that the crew is approx 60.

Sorry not trying to "Nit Pick" :rel Its just as a sailor myself when I looked at that photo I thought how in hell do they do everything.

The rest of the crew must of been on an RDO....damn civy"s! :smokie

Every source I have seen list the Bay as having 60 crew

Obviously that photo is not all the crew (but may be all the officers)

 

[swerve]

Agreed that the the crew of a Bay is much smaller than a Juan Carlos and that the RAN would struggle to man a 3rd LHD.

However if you count the men in the linked photo there is only 30 when the same RN web site says that the crew is approx 60.

Sorry not trying to "Nit Pick" :rel Its just as a sailor myself when I looked at that photo I thought how in hell do they do everything.

The rest of the crew must of been on an RDO....damn civy"s! :smokie

Damn! I should have looked more carefully. I just read the caption & posted it.

 

[hairyman]

I cannot understand how the mindset of the RAN has grown so quickly. We introduced the Kanimbla and Manooka not that long ago, having only previously the Tobruk, that is since we got rid of Melbourne and Sydney. Now we are getting two LHD's 3 times their size, Now everyone wants to get a 3rd LHD, or at least a Bay Class. I still believe that we would be better off with a couple of ships abour 12'000tons, which would be ideal for disaster relief, smaller operations like the Solomons etc.

 

[Sea Toby]

I cannot understand how the mindset of the RAN has grown so quickly. We introduced the Kanimbla and Manooka not that long ago, having only previously the Tobruk, that is since we got rid of Melbourne and Sydney. Now we are getting two LHD's 3 times their size, Now everyone wants to get a 3rd LHD, or at least a Bay Class. I still believe that we would be better off with a couple of ships abour 12'000tons, which would be ideal for disaster relief, smaller operations like the Solomons etc.

The last white paper provided the sea lift numbers, having been rethought since the East Timor operations. A few decades ago the RAN operated Sydney and Melbourne carriers. The Melbourne wasn't replaced, the Sydney was by a much much smaller Tobruk. Its my opinion the RAN missed the Sydney more than the Melbourne during East Timor. Without our allies sea lift help, the ADF wouldn't have been able to pull off the operations in East Timor.

And if Australia cannot do landing operations self sufficiently in East Timor, it does leaves one to wonder whether Australia could sea lift the army to defend Tasmania....

Since East Timor, Australia has been increasing its sea lift and air lift elements of its defence forces. And for very good sound reasons. I wonder why?

There is a reason why Australia bought 4 C-17s. There is a reason why Australia is buying 3 amphibious ships, 2 of them large. To reach Australia's new minimum sea lift and air lift numbers stated by policy......

 

[gf0012-aust]

Since East Timor, Australia has been increasing its sea lift and air lift elements of its defence forces. I wonder why?

every fast tracked and major asset procurement since ET has been geared around Cosgroves advice to Govt about deficient expeditionary capability - be it warfighting ot civilian assist.

fatships - ET issue
helo lift - ET issue
ARH helos - ET ground support issue
tanks - GW1-GW2 competency and survivability issue
JSF - no RAN fixed wing because RAAF maintains fixed wing combat air and arny and navy get rotary combat air

this is all due to reshaping our doctrine.

we have people overseas cross training.exchanging on expeditionary issues - zero on naval combat air on flatties because we don't and won't be getting it.

 

[Marc 1]

Manooka

Just a wee correction Hairyman: Manoora HMAS Manoora - Royal Australian Navy

 

[PeterM]

I cannot understand how the mindset of the RAN has grown so quickly. We introduced the Kanimbla and Manooka not that long ago, having only previously the Tobruk, that is since we got rid of Melbourne and Sydney. Now we are getting two LHD's 3 times their size, Now everyone wants to get a 3rd LHD, or at least a Bay Class. I still believe that we would be better off with a couple of ships abour 12'000tons, which would be ideal for disaster relief, smaller operations like the Solomons etc.

The white paper has stated we are looking at a design of around 10,000 - 15,000 tonnes for the strategic sealift vessel.

at 9,000t the Canterbury it a little too small. The Bay class (16,160 t ) is a little bigger but compares well cost wise with other options.

You would have to imagine the Galicia (13,900t ) would be a strong option, particularly with the RAN's experience with Navantia

 

[riksavage]

The white paper has stated we are looking at a design of around 10,000 - 15,000 tonnes for the strategic sealift vessel.

at 9,000t the Canterbury it a little too small. The Bay class (16,160 t ) is a little bigger but compares well cost wise with other options.

You would have to imagine the Galicia (13,900t ) would be a strong option, particularly with the RAN's experience with Navantia

But with BAE's maritime interests growing in Australia a Bay Class could be built locally.

 

[StingrayOZ]

every fast tracked and major asset procurement since ET has been geared around Cosgroves advice to Govt about deficient expeditionary capability - be it warfighting ot civilian assist.

fatships - ET issue
helo lift - ET issue
ARH helos - ET ground support issue
tanks - GW1-GW2 competency and survivability issue
JSF - no RAN fixed wing because RAAF maintains fixed wing combat air and arny and navy get rotary combat air

this is all due to reshaping our doctrine..

But are we expecting something large to crop up? East Timor is done. Pacific commitments will always be small than E.T.

I can't see AU and IND disagreeing again (except of West Pupa?!) on that scale..

I wonder what particular operations all this equipment is minded for?..

 

[battlensign]

But are we expecting something large to crop up? East Timor is done. Pacific commitments will always be small than E.T.

I can't see AU and IND disagreeing again (except of West Pupa?!) on that scale..

I wonder what particular operations all this equipment is minded for?..

As just one example of a potential possibility it appears to be fully expected that PNG will have issues at some point.

With 6 million people there and it being right next to the West Papua province of Indonesia, you can probably understand the concerns the Cth would have given its potential responsibilities as a result of its historical role as mandated supervising power until 1975. East Timor only had ~ 900 000 or so people to secure.

Brett.

 

[battlensign]

And if Australia cannot do landing operations self sufficiently in East Timor, it does leaves one to wonder whether Australia could sea lift the army to defend Tasmania....

Who says we would try............

Brett.

P.S it is worth noting all of the ships that Tas is able to post pics of from time to time. Quite clearly the Cth maintains a visible presence through the visits of RAN ships which would form another part supporting the Cth's claims of sovereignty under CIL. But realistically one would question the strategic tenability of a foreign seizure of Tasmania.

 

[PeterM]

But with BAE's maritime interests growing in Australia a Bay Class could be built locally.

Both the Bay and Galicia classes be built in Australia

personally I prefer the Bay class, but the Galicia would also be a good option

 

[Sea Toby]

I would think Australia will build the third amphibious ship first, before building the two new replenishment ships, How many shipyards are capable of building a 12k-25k ships in Australia? Both types are much larger than a frigate or destroyer. I am asking about the final assembly, I am sure all of the shipyards are capable of building modules.

 

[PeterM]

I would think Australia will build the third amphibious ship first, before building the two new replenishment ships, How many shipyards are capable of building a 12k-25k ships in Australia? Both types are much larger than a frigate or destroyer. I am asking about the final assembly, I am sure all of the shipyards are capable of building modules.

I think perhaps the strategic sealift ship and one of the replishment ships initially with the second replenishment ship commencing after the completion of the first

 

[icelord]

Who says we would try............

Brett.

P.S it is worth noting all of the ships that Tas is able to post pics of from time to time. Quite clearly the Cth maintains a visible presence through the visits of RAN ships which would form another part supporting the Cth's claims of sovereignty under CIL. But realistically one would question the strategic tenability of a foreign seizure of Tasmania.

Are you kidding? Hobart is great piss run!

 

[Sea Toby]

Are you kidding? Hobart is great piss run!

I am sure Australia if given some lead time could have handled East Timor better with the shipping as is. But at that time Australia had to move fast. I will admit Tasmania isn't under much threat, but say after a devastating earthquake or another natural disaster, would that shipping be available any quicker than East Timor? I don't think the people of Tasmania think a expeditionary deficiency is funny....

Reminds me of the Brisbane Line. The people of Perth didn't think much of that policy either.