Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Clearly, it would be far more economical with a common design for both fleets. Either, a whole fleet of H-90's (Which, is not shared with its allies!) or a H-60/S-92. The latter would have made far greater sense........Regardless, I've expressed my opinion more than once. So, I've said all that I am going to on the subject.
Currently the ADF does operate a common Army/RAN helicopter airframe. Army using the UH-60 Black Hawk and RAN the S-70B-2 Seahawk, amongst other designs of course.

While the ADF has gotten good service out of these helicopters, they are not new designs, and some of the other helicopters operated (or recently retired) are even older. Given operational experiences in hot environments, as well as hot and high AoO like Afghanistan, a better lift/transport helicopter was desired.

As a natural outgrowth of that, and since that S-70B-2 and the Seasprites were going to be due for replacement, then it was looked at also using a common airframe for the Future Naval Helicopter.

I admit, I do not understand the references to the H-92, as that is a Sikorsky medium lift helicopter currently only in civlian and Canadian service...

-Cheers
 

PeterM

Active Member
Under Phase 7, up to 32x helicopters are to be acquired, either through traditional "direct" acquisition or through Private finance options.

This does not yet encompass a "light utility" role, which remains unapproved, but is apparently included in the capability requirement put to government.

Additional airframes would be required, to provide an operational LUH capability.

Types mentioned as possibilities, include A-109, EC-635 and AW-139.

Time will tell...
It looks like the ADF already are leasing three A109s. New Zealand use the type as well,

In February 2007, the Royal Australian Navy announced its intention to lease three A109 helicopters for training purposes. The helicopters are being leased from Raytheon Australia. Two are being supplied by AgustaWestland Italy and one from a civil operator in France.
from A109M Light, Twin-Engine Multipurpose Helicopter - Army Technology

I am surprised that the UH-72A Lakota hasn't been mentioned as an option. It is replacing UH-1H Iroquois and OH-58 A/C Kiowa helicopters in the US Army and Army National Guard.

The prime contractor for the UH-72A is EADS North America, this means there is scope for any UH-72A purchase to be built in Australia by Australian Aerospace (which is a a subsidiary of EADS).
 
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hairyman

Active Member
Agree that Time is a major issue,and this may give the an Advantage to the Seahawk bid.

Very well thought out and informative post Todjaeger,keep em comming......

Regards
Who made the final decision to buy the SeaSprites, the Defence Chiefs or the Polies?
And I dont think it will cause this government any lost sleep to make a decision to change the previous governments decision.
I do see more advantages in going with the MRH-90's though.
 

PeterM

Active Member
Who made the final decision to buy the SeaSprites, the Defence Chiefs or the Polies?
And I dont think it will cause this government any lost sleep to make a decision to change the previous governments decision.
I do see more advantages in going with the MRH-90's though.
The Seasprite project was a debacle, but there has been a comprehensive review by the auditor general and implementing the recommendations, we will be better placed to manage all future projects

from $1.4bn wasted on cancelled Seasprite | The Australian
The ANAO found the decision to cancel the project could not be attributed to any individual factor.

"If there is an overriding message from this project it is that risks to project outcomes need to be better managed and related accountability for managing project performance strengthened," it said.

The DMO's Seasprite project office had experienced "ongoing difficulties in attracting and retaining appropriately qualified personnel which inhibited its capacity to manage a large and complex project".

Right from the start, an inadequate understanding of the risks associated with the acquisition was not attained through the requirement definition and tender-evaluation processes.

"Poor contract management practices within Defence and DMO, over the life of the project, contributed to ongoing contractual uncertainty," it said.

The Auditor-General said the risks associated with the project were increased by the decision to fit upgraded systems "into a smaller helicopter than the Anzac ship is designed to operate".

Defence Materiel Minister Greg Combet said last night that Defence had accepted all seven recommendations from the ANAO designed to prevent a repeat of the Seasprite.

"The lessons learned from the Seasprite project have already been incorporated in reforms which have enhanced Defence project management practices and are taken further in the implementation of the Mortimer review as recently announced by government," Mr Combet said.

Also it is the NFH-90 not the MRH-90 that is in contention for the Martime Helicopter
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Got my first look today at the MRH-90 on the flight Deck of Manoora, very very nice indeed...hoping when they get back they're still there to get a close up inside.

Who made the final decision to buy the SeaSprites, the Defence Chiefs or the Polies?
Defence Chiefs get a big say in the purchase, but in the end the Govt of the day makes the Decision.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
It looks like the ADF already are leasing three A109s. New Zealand use the type as well,


from A109M Light, Twin-Engine Multipurpose Helicopter - Army Technology
Australia is using the A-109's for promotion purposes and to give RAN pilots who aren't on the Seahawks something to fly other than the very basic Squirrel.

They will give ADF good experience in operating this type and that might give it an edge when it comes to the HATS (Helicopter aircrew training system) but nothing is certain.


I am surprised that the UH-72A Lakota hasn't been mentioned as an option. It is replacing UH-1H Iroquois and OH-58 A/C Kiowa helicopters in the US Army and Army National Guard.

The prime contractor for the UH-72A is EADS North America, this means there is scope for any UH-72A purchase to be built in Australia by Australian Aerospace (which is a a subsidiary of EADS).
Who says it won't be proposed? This project hasn't even gone to a request for tender yet, AFAIK, so I'd be very surprised if the UH-72A hadn't been provided in "market survey" or an RFI, if indeed that has been conducted as yet?

Due to the project timeline, it's a bit hard to speculate on types. I imagine several will be short-listed, ala AIR87, before we can truly begin to speculate...
 

PeterM

Active Member
I imagine a light utility helicopter would be a good option to operate from the future Offshore Combat Vessel

looking at Air 9000 Phase 7 (Helicopter Aircrew Training System) the from the DCP

First Pass Approval - Complete
Year-of-Decision - FY 2011-12 to FY 2012-13
Initial Operating Capability - 2014 to 2016

It seems that first pass has already gone through. There hasn't been much attention, no doubt due to the low profile and more topic things to discuss such as future submarines, frigates etc.
 

hairyman

Active Member
I imagine a light utility helicopter would be a good option to operate from the future Offshore Combat Vessel

looking at Air 9000 Phase 7 (Helicopter Aircrew Training System) the from the DCP

First Pass Approval - Complete
Year-of-Decision - FY 2011-12 to FY 2012-13
Initial Operating Capability - 2014 to 2016

It seems that first pass has already gone through. There hasn't been much attention, no doubt due to the low profile and more topic things to discuss such as future submarines, frigates etc.
Are any of the possible contenders, A-109, EC-635, AW-139, able to be produced here like the Tiger and the MRH-90?
 

PeterM

Active Member
Are any of the possible contenders, A-109, EC-635, AW-139, able to be produced here like the Tiger and the MRH-90?
We do not know who all the contenders are, the UH-72A for example could easily be an option.

As for building in Australia, if that were to eventuate it would most likely need to utilise Australian Aerospace, which probably means an EADS design such as the EC635, EC645 or UH-72A.

Some general information on the EC635: http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Overview_147.html
 
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LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Would be great to get peoples thoughts on th above article - just another storm in a teacup?
Its not a storm in a teacup when you factor in the ripple effects. It feeds right back to recruitment. You mitigate the ability to train submariners and bring them through the pipeline. People walk away. All this effort goes into a whiz bang amazing website and good work at DFR only to be destroyed by systemic underlying internal issues....

The most critical element of wanting an expanded future sub program is putting in place the military intellectual capital to get the job done across the proposed future hardware platform. This ultimately requires personnel over-subscription - both to meet your operational tempo without destroying moral and to ensure you can effectively play internal RAN politics in Canberra (affording time and space for submariner officers to pursue study etc).

We cant even dream about bringing forward the future sub platform until we sit down and figure out what makes the sub fleet ecosystem work most efficiently on a sustainable path. Part of that discussion is to learn lessons from the situation at ASC. The Moffitt report gives us a framework.

I would hazard a guess that if a CO of the Collins fleet walked through ASC and subbie tradies were completely taking the mickey then it would get physical pretty damn quickly. As it should.

There is no doubt in my mind that the sub fleet must have its own exclusive base. At least one initially and potentially expanding to two in 2020 (east and west). There are a few arguments both for and against this (exclusive base).

If you accept the fact the existing and future sub fleet is the jewel in our naval defence strategy (aka 'our baby') then I believe the current circumstances dictate that our baby requires a sustained period of 'incubation'.

Incubation is costly (it duplicates support services/assets and complicates delivery of universal programs). However it is a financial burden and program complexity we must accept if we expect the sub fleet to bear enough fruit to meet the personnel requirements for the new hardware.

They need exclusive on-base housing, exclusive access to internal military human resources support to streamline their entire career life cycle (housing,pay issues,leave requesting health professionals etc) - all provided in a timely fashion on their own exclusive base. An exclusive base is a powerful recruitment tool.

No one will ever ask for the work to be easy - but they are entitled to ask for a support platform that allows them to enjoy a decent quality of life and a sense of pride that their job is valued to such a level that they are very well taken care of. Let them build a culture of pride around an ethos of 'elite service' on their own base under the exclusive command of their own fleet commander.

If we are serious about spending $20 billion dollars then we need to be deadly serious about the human capital put behind those assets - incubating them as best as possible to allow them to build up a significant surplus of manpower.

In an ideal world you could mount significant (and justifiable) arguments against 'branching off' the sub fleet to its own base (again). I do not think the current situation is indicative of an 'ideal world' scenario. I think it needs to happen. Does anyone agree/disagree?
 

the road runner

Active Member
Who made the final decision to buy the SeaSprites, the Defence Chiefs or the Polies?
And I dont think it will cause this government any lost sleep to make a decision to change the previous governments decision.
I do see more advantages in going with the MRH-90's though.
I was under the impression the ADF did not even want the seasprites...The Seasprites were to be part of corvette force,for the Malaysian Navy,who were going to purchase these corvettes of ADI(if im not mistaken).

As for politics,and who dose what to whome,i will leave the political question....to the pollies,they never sease to amaze ,me.

Regards
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I was under the impression the ADF did not even want the seasprites...The Seasprites were to be part of corvette force,for the Malaysian Navy,who were going to purchase these corvettes of ADI(if im not mistaken).

As for politics,and who dose what to whome,i will leave the political question....to the pollies,they never sease to amaze ,me.

Regards
From memory the RAN was supposed to get those Corvettes as well as a Fremantle replacement, however the program was cancelled and the Armidales ended up being bought. The Seasprite was then supposed to be the helicopter for the ANZAC's......
 

PeterM

Active Member
Its not a storm in a teacup when you factor in the ripple effects. It feeds right back to recruitment. You mitigate the ability to train submariners and bring them through the pipeline. People walk away. All this effort goes into a whiz bang amazing website and good work at DFR only to be destroyed by systemic underlying internal issues....

The most critical element of wanting an expanded future sub program is putting in place the military intellectual capital to get the job done across the proposed future hardware platform. This ultimately requires personnel over-subscription - both to meet your operational tempo without destroying moral and to ensure you can effectively play internal RAN politics in Canberra (affording time and space for submariner officers to pursue study etc).

We cant even dream about bringing forward the future sub platform until we sit down and figure out what makes the sub fleet ecosystem work most efficiently on a sustainable path. Part of that discussion is to learn lessons from the situation at ASC. The Moffitt report gives us a framework.

I would hazard a guess that if a CO of the Collins fleet walked through ASC and subbie tradies were completely taking the mickey then it would get physical pretty damn quickly. As it should.

There is no doubt in my mind that the sub fleet must have its own exclusive base. At least one initially and potentially expanding to two in 2020 (east and west). There are a few arguments both for and against this (exclusive base).

If you accept the fact the existing and future sub fleet is the jewel in our naval defence strategy (aka 'our baby') then I believe the current circumstances dictate that our baby requires a sustained period of 'incubation'.

Incubation is costly (it duplicates support services/assets and complicates delivery of universal programs). However it is a financial burden and program complexity we must accept if we expect the sub fleet to bear enough fruit to meet the personnel requirements for the new hardware.

They need exclusive on-base housing, exclusive access to internal military human resources support to streamline their entire career life cycle (housing,pay issues,leave requesting health professionals etc) - all provided in a timely fashion on their own exclusive base. An exclusive base is a powerful recruitment tool.

No one will ever ask for the work to be easy - but they are entitled to ask for a support platform that allows them to enjoy a decent quality of life and a sense of pride that their job is valued to such a level that they are very well taken care of. Let them build a culture of pride around an ethos of 'elite service' on their own base under the exclusive command of their own fleet commander.

If we are serious about spending $20 billion dollars then we need to be deadly serious about the human capital put behind those assets - incubating them as best as possible to allow them to build up a significant surplus of manpower.

In an ideal world you could mount significant (and justifiable) arguments against 'branching off' the sub fleet to its own base (again). I do not think the current situation is indicative of an 'ideal world' scenario. I think it needs to happen. Does anyone agree/disagree?
This is an interesting idea, I am not sure on my thoughts on it.

I could see advantages with it, but I am not sure how practical it is and whether this couldn't be achieved by specialist facilities within existing bases.
 

hairyman

Active Member
From The Age
New submarine fleet to cost '$36 billion'BRENDAN NICHOLSON
October 30, 2009 .
TWELVE missile-carrying submarines to be built for the navy will cost more than $36 billion, or more than $3 billion each, an expert report has found.

The predicted price is more than double the previous best-cost estimate by defence experts, making them the biggest and most expensive conventional submarines built. The total cost of the existing Collins Class submarines was $5.7 billion.

The Federal Government said in its defence white paper that the new submarines would carry cruise missiles able to hit a distant enemy. They would also carry complex surveillance equipment and would be able to collect special forces teams while submerged.

The white paper and subsequent defence capability plan did not include a cost estimate other than to put the submarines in the ''over $1.5 billion'' category of major projects. Experts then calculated that to do all the Government wanted, the subs would cost about $1.4 billion each.

A co-author of the new report, Andrew Davis of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said there was a scandalous lack of costing information. Dr Davies and Sean Costello, of defence consultancy Miller Costello, have tracked the steady increase in the cost of building submarines since 1961 to estimate that Australia's future submarines will cost about $3.04 billion each.

To carry all the weapons and equipment the Government wants, the vessels will need to be about 4000 tonnes - much bigger than the 3050-tonne Collins.

The size means that design and construction is likely to be very challenging, the authors say.

The authors warn that even a smaller and less-sophisticated design might stretch construction capabilities to the limit.

They say that to have a vessel in service by 2025, as planned, Australia had barely seven years to decide design and capability.

Nations around the Indian and Pacific Ocean rims were already acquiring sophisticated submarines and their navys could end up much more capable than Australia's if the project failed. '' A failed development project could lead to a permanent loss of our regional comparative advantage in submarine matters,'' the authors say.
 

PeterM

Active Member
The Australian Strategic Policy Institue's full 28 report "Strategic Insights 49 - How to buy a submarine: Defining and building Australia's future fleet" that is available as a
download pdf here

Australian Strategic Policy Institute

This provide substantial in-depth information for those who are interested, I found it to be a very interesting read.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
From The Age
New submarine fleet to cost '$36 billion'BRENDAN NICHOLSON
October 30, 2009 .
TWELVE missile-carrying submarines to be built for the navy will cost more than $36 billion, or more than $3 billion each, an expert report has found.

The predicted price is more than double the previous best-cost estimate by defence experts, making them the biggest and most expensive conventional submarines built. The total cost of the existing Collins Class submarines was $5.7 billion.

The Federal Government said in its defence white paper that the new submarines would carry cruise missiles able to hit a distant enemy. They would also carry complex surveillance equipment and would be able to collect special forces teams while submerged.

The white paper and subsequent defence capability plan did not include a cost estimate other than to put the submarines in the ''over $1.5 billion'' category of major projects. Experts then calculated that to do all the Government wanted, the subs would cost about $1.4 billion each.

A co-author of the new report, Andrew Davis of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said there was a scandalous lack of costing information. Dr Davies and Sean Costello, of defence consultancy Miller Costello, have tracked the steady increase in the cost of building submarines since 1961 to estimate that Australia's future submarines will cost about $3.04 billion each.

To carry all the weapons and equipment the Government wants, the vessels will need to be about 4000 tonnes - much bigger than the 3050-tonne Collins.

The size means that design and construction is likely to be very challenging, the authors say.

The authors warn that even a smaller and less-sophisticated design might stretch construction capabilities to the limit.

They say that to have a vessel in service by 2025, as planned, Australia had barely seven years to decide design and capability.

Nations around the Indian and Pacific Ocean rims were already acquiring sophisticated submarines and their navys could end up much more capable than Australia's if the project failed. '' A failed development project could lead to a permanent loss of our regional comparative advantage in submarine matters,'' the authors say.
Personally, I am surprised that Australia's Future Submarine is only going to displace ~ 4,000 tons. Which, is close to the Japanese Oyashio Class @ 3,600 tons (submerged). Really, I expecting it to be much bigger.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Personally, I am surprised that Australia's Future Submarine is only going to displace ~ 4,000 tons. Which, is close to the Japanese Oyashio Class @ 3,600 tons (submerged). Really, I expecting it to be much bigger.
Perhaps the figure quoted in the article is the surface weight (I think the weight they're quoting for the Collins in the same sentence is surface weight) rather than the submerged weight, which would make the future submarine significantly heavier than the Oyashio. If the information I'm looking at is correct, Oyashio's surface weight is closer to 2,700 tons.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Perhaps the figure quoted in the article is the surface weight (I think the weight they're quoting for the Collins in the same sentence is surface weight) rather than the submerged weight, which would make the future submarine significantly heavier than the Oyashio. If the information I'm looking at is correct, Oyashio's surface weight is closer to 2,700 tons.
That could be the case. As you are correct that the Surface Weight of the Oyashio's is ~2,700 tons and the Submerged Weight is ~3,600 tons. So, its possible the true Submerged Weight of Australia's Future Submarine could be closer to 5,000 tons?


BTW I believe the Oyashio Class carries ~22 Weapons. (i.e. Torpedo's and Missiles)
 

PeterM

Active Member
I found the detail on the procurement methodolody, very interesting, particulalry as it uses the AWDs as a practical example.

from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute Report (linked previously) pages 5-7:

A recent lesson: the AWD experience

Australia’s present procurement system is modelled on the recommendations of the Kinnaird Review. Projects are approved in a ‘multiple pass’ process in which significant investment (up to 10% of project costs) can be made before final approval in order to identify and, hopefully, retire risks. This approach is designed to treat projects in business‑like terms, while including the military (the eventual end users) in the development of the proposal(s) that will go to government.

Projects are built in an iterative fashion, focusing on government engagement and buy‑in, preservation of the government’s commercial position and on developing an understanding of the risks and actual scope of its commitment. This gives the National Security Committee of Cabinet multiple opportunities to consider proposals working their way through the system.

One of the first major tests of the Kinnaird process is the AWD project, which went through the two‑pass process and saw hundreds of millions of dollars invested in design and risk reduction work before the final approval in 2007. In many ways it is simply too early to tell whether the project will go on to be a success. Some of the risks identified in the approval process won’t be retired until the ships are at sea conducting trials and being accepted into service. But it is worth exploring some aspects of the pre‑approval phase to see what they might portend for the submarine project.

In re‑visiting the recent history of the AWD project, the first observation—and a valuable lesson in itself—is that commonly‑held preconceptions about the AWD program did not stand up to scrutiny when tested. The ship design and the shipbuilder outcomes were not those identified as the ‘early favourites’ by industry observers. Had that ‘group think’ become accepted wisdom, the AWD project would look very different from the one currently underway.

In particular, on announcement in May 2005 that the Navantia F‑100 frigate would be retained as a design option, many people simply dismissed this option as a benchmarking exercise, or worse still as the creation of a ‘stalking horse’—an option retained in order for the illusion of competition to be maintained while the ‘preferred’ evolved Arleigh Burke ship made its way to final approval. History now shows that the stability, and hence lower risk, of taking an existing design into the build phase was a consideration that overrode other (mostly capability‑based) concerns for a project with no shortage of other ‘firsts’.

Indeed, many considered the whole project to be the ‘wrong‑way‑around’, with sequential selection of a combat system, systems integrator, shipbuilder and, finally, a ship designer. But in reality this was the most appropriate path when weighed against our unique circumstances. For example, the early purchase of the Aegis system by government through a US Foreign Military Sales contract bought precious time, delivered the core capability, enabled design and builder selection (but not at the exclusion of competition) and retired a key risk.

The original 1999 vision (which was reflected in the 2000 Defence White Paper) was for an essentially ‘off‑the‑shelf’ build of an existing European frigate design. But in 2000, Navy put forward a requirement for a ship capable of firing the Standard‑2 missile. This change of scope saw the estimate of $3.5 billion in the White Paper become ‘between $4.5 billion and $6 billion’ in the 2004–14 Defence Capability Plan. As we now know, that figure was still optimistic.

The Kinnaird process revealed the true cost of the project and proved that a commercially contracted cost is more credible than any earlier estimates. There are two chief observations about the final $8 billion price tag for three ships. Firstly, costing as an exercise is plagued by a culture of (misplaced) optimism in Defence and industry. (This is by no means unique to Australia.) Secondly, although it was well over the original budget, the Kinnaird process preserved the option to either re‑scope or re‑tender the project before a contract was signed—albeit with the loss of over five years.

Finally, the Kinnaird process demonstrates to the broader body‑politic that a robust process is behind their taxpayer funded investment. This is especially important for avoiding opaqueness and politicisation and for building confidence in the decisions affecting the program. The future submarine project, which is likely to run well into the 2030s, will be presided over by a succession of governments, probably of both political persuasions. So it must be politically bi‑partisan—or run the risk of modification or even cancellation at some later stage.
 
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