Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[Spacearrow99]

How can the French justify only two dedicated AEW? Forget building a second carrier, they need a better theatre defence capability to defend the ships they already have.

The MN current AAW capabilities are very bad except for the Horizons. Well, the Horizons are the MN's only dedicated AAW DDGs. They have the Cassards, but their outdated. The first FREDA want be in service until 2020 or 2021. The FREMM will increase the MN overall AAW capabilities. The MN has a point defense AAW doctrine. The French CG should be fine, they're networked and they have E2Cs. Anyway, if the MN needs more Aster 30, they can put them in the FREMM, and since the CG is networked the Horizons radar could guide them. The AAW defense of the MN will much better after 2020 than it is now.

The U. S. Navy is the only navy that has perfect carrier group AAW doctrine. The French, British, Italy, navies CG AAW doctrine have flaws in thems.

 

[swerve]

... Anyway, if the MN needs more Aster 30, they can put them in the FREMM, and since the CG is networked the Horizons radar could guide them. ....

But that limits them to defending two areas, or if one of the Horizons is in refit, one area - & if that ship is damaged . . . . ?

The main problem is not the number of Aster 30s at sea, but the number of high-performance radars & combat systems. That's what the Horizons have, & the FREDAs lack. Two is nowhere near enough. Even four, as originally planned, is a very small number for a fleet with carriers & amphibious ships. Compare it with other W. European navies.

 

[kev 99]

But that limits them to defending two areas, or if one of the Horizons is in refit, one area - & if that ship is damaged . . . . ?

The main problem is not the number of Aster 30s at sea, but the number of high-performance radars & combat systems. That's what the Horizons have, & the FREDAs lack. Two is nowhere near enough. Even four, as originally planned, is a very small number for a fleet with carriers & amphibious ships. Compare it with other W. European navies.

Interestingly though the Marina Militare will be even worse off having only the Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio without a pair of FREDAs to back them up.

 

[youpii]

But that limits them to defending two areas, or if one of the Horizons is in refit, one area - & if that ship is damaged . . . . ?

The main problem is not the number of Aster 30s at sea, but the number of high-performance radars & combat systems. That's what the Horizons have, & the FREDAs lack. Two is nowhere near enough. Even four, as originally planned, is a very small number for a fleet with carriers & amphibious ships. Compare it with other W. European navies.

France is too small to be involved in two major conflicts at the same time.

MN asks for 4 AAW ships so they can have at least 2 ships available.
But people who proposed the current FREDA design have no idea of what an AAW destroyer should be. If they really are short on cash, they should upgrade the Cassard & Jean Bart with 48 SM2 or Aster 15/30.

 

[kev 99]

France is too small to be involved in two major conflicts at the same time.

But France could need to protect 2 areas while fighting in one conflict, e.g. one AAW destroyer to protect a carrier and another to protect amphibs.

 

[swerve]

France is too small to be involved in two major conflicts at the same time.

MN asks for 4 AAW ships so they can have at least 2 ships available.
But people who proposed the current FREDA design have no idea of what an AAW destroyer should be. If they really are short on cash, they should upgrade the Cassard & Jean Bart with 48 SM2 or Aster 15/30.

The UK has about the same population & wealth as France. The Netherlands, Spain, Germany & Denmark have all built or are building more full-specification AAW ships than France or Italy.

Under current plans, the MN will sometimes have only one real AAW ship available. Even if you're only involved in one conflict, a single AAW ship is a single point of failure, & that is asking for disaster. It's crazy. I'd hate to be on CdG, or even more a French amphibious ship, in a war against even a half-competent enemy, relying on FREDAs after my only serviceable Horizon had an accident, a breakdown, or fell foul of a mine, submarine, or whatever.

 

[youpii]

The UK has about the same population & wealth as France. The Netherlands, Spain, Germany & Denmark have all built or are building more full-specification AAW ships than France or Italy.

Under current plans, the MN will sometimes have only one real AAW ship available. Even if you're only involved in one conflict, a single AAW ship is a single point of failure, & that is asking for disaster. It's crazy. I'd hate to be on CdG, or even more a French amphibious ship, in a war against even a half-competent enemy, relying on FREDAs after my only serviceable Horizon had an accident, a breakdown, or fell foul of a mine, submarine, or whatever.

Yeah, but seeing the civilian standards of the LHD and their total lack of weapons, the low specs of the FREDA, the lack of mid-life update of the Lafayettes, and the civilian standards of the future replenishment ships, MN kinda design the ships like if real war is unlikely to happen in one place. So don't even think of two places at the same time. Or maybe they think that UK, Netherlands, Spain, Germany & Denmark will lend their AAW ships to a French carrier group.

 

[harryriedl]

But France could need to protect 2 areas while fighting in one conflict, e.g. one AAW destroyer to protect a carrier and another to protect amphibs.

But their FREMMs are better equipped as they have EMPAR rather than herkales. which means they can use ASTER 30

 

[swerve]

But their FREMMs are better equipped as they have EMPAR rather than herkales. which means they can use ASTER 30

Yes, but they still lack a true long-range search radar. They'll be greatly inferior to the Horizons, or Type 45. Very much second-rate AAW.

 

[kev 99]

But their FREMMs are better equipped as they have EMPAR rather than herkales. which means they can use ASTER 30

Okay I'd forgotton about that, that does mean their FREMMS will have a better self defence suite, as Swerve says I'd much rather have better AAW ships though. Neither solution is ideal, I think on retrospect that Marina Militare's solution is probably better than Marine Nationale's FREDAs though.

 

[harryriedl]

Yes, but they still lack a true long-range search radar. They'll be greatly inferior to the Horizons, or Type 45. Very much second-rate AAW.

not denying that at all just that they are marginally better off than MN in regards to air defense. The FREMMs are second rate air defense vessels and a true AAW vessel would be much preferred as they both have quite a lot of HVT to protect

 

[Sea Toby]

Outside an area air defense ship escorting their carrier on deployments abroad, I don't see much of a need for France to invest for more expensive area air defense missile assets. Most of their overseas territories are much alike New Zealand, a long distance from powerful air forces. Tahiti, New Caledonia, La Reunion aren't threatened by powerful air forces. All of these territories have airfields capable of supporting French air force fighters.

Any amphibious operations would most likely be supported by their carrier and her escorts. I would think the French have more difficulties with their sea lanes of communications. Their naval ships should have self defense air missiles along with anti-submarine and anti-surface capability.

I will agree every nation wants more expensive area air defense assets. Especially for power projection missions. But on the other hand nations such as France which have territories abroad must also have assets suitable to support their sea lanes of communications as well. If that means they have to settle for having two or three more general purpose frigates, so be it. These frigates with air self defense keep those sea lanes open....

Every nation has different agendas to fulfill defensively. Its not the same round peg going through the same round hole, some holes are square in shape and require a square peg. Obviously, France would rather have two general purpose frigates over one air defense destroyer. Most nations do.....

Too many people compare ships, not their agenda or missions..... All millitaries and all nations have budgets as well.... Simply put, wants don't trump needs....

 

[Spacearrow99]

But that limits them to defending two areas, or if one of the Horizons is in refit, one area - & if that ship is damaged . . . . ?

The main problem is not the number of Aster 30s at sea, but the number of high-performance radars & combat systems. That's what the Horizons have, & the FREDAs lack. Two is nowhere near enough. Even four, as originally planned, is a very small number for a fleet with carriers & amphibious ships. Compare it with other W. European navies.

Well, the other W. European navies don't have E2Cs, so grasping at straws hear. The French carrier group is networked, so MN's proint defense doctrine is sound. The French carrier groups could get by with the FREDA serving as their main AAW asset. In 2022, the MN's AAW capabitiles will be much better than they are now.

 

[riksavage]

Outside an area air defense ship escorting their carrier on deployments abroad, I don't see much of a need for France to invest for more expensive area air defense missile assets. Most of their overseas territories are much alike New Zealand, a long distance from powerful air forces. Tahiti, New Caledonia, La Reunion aren't threatened by powerful air forces. All of these territories have airfields capable of supporting French air force fighters.

Any amphibious operations would most likely be supported by their carrier and her escorts. I would think the French have more difficulties with their sea lanes of communications. Their naval ships should have self defense air missiles along with anti-submarine and anti-surface capability.

I will agree every nation wants more expensive area air defense assets. Especially for power projection missions. But on the other hand nations such as France which have territories abroad must also have assets suitable to support their sea lanes of communications as well. If that means they have to settle for having two or three more general purpose frigates, so be it. These frigates with air self defense keep those sea lanes open....

Every nation has different agendas to fulfill defensively. Its not the same round peg going through the same round hole, some holes are square in shape and require a square peg. Obviously, France would rather have two general purpose frigates over one air defense destroyer. Most nations do.....

Too many people compare ships, not their agenda or missions..... All millitaries and all nations have budgets as well.... Simply put, wants don't trump needs....

Sea Toby, I beg to differ. A more likely threat is that represented by land based salvo's of anti-ship missiles rather than a modern airforce. Silkworms and Sunburn systems are easy to deploy and fire, and you don't need to be a sophisticated second or first-world country to operate them. The French LHP's will be particularly vulnerable in a scenario where they are operating against a failed state where there is a requirement to execute a NEO in a littoral environment.

I believe there is a minimum requirement for at least six to eight dedicated AAW platforms to defend the current and planned batch of French amphibious assets (taking into account those AAW assets in refit & training). No country in their right mind will commit their crown jewels (Carrier / LHD's) to a hostile theatre of operations without at least two or three dedicated AAW's. During GWI an escorting T42 shot down a Silkworm heading for one of the US Carriers, a cruise missile of that size would sink or immobilise most modern Carrier/LHD's.

The RN is panicking about the prospect of having only six T45's based on the assumption that they can keep five at sea in absolute emergency. The whole purpose of France's upgraded Carrier/LHD fleet is to allow them to conduct blue-water operations independently, this will remain a pipe-dream until more AAW assets arrive on the scene.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Sea Toby, I beg to differ. A more likely threat is that represented by land based salvo's of anti-ship missiles rather than a modern airforce. Silkworms and Sunburn systems are easy to deploy and fire, and you don't need to be a sophisticated second or first-world country to operate them. The French LHP's will be particularly vulnerable in a scenario where they are operating against a failed state where there is a requirement to execute a NEO in a littoral environment.

I believe there is a minimum requirement for at least six to eight dedicated AAW platforms to defend the current and planned batch of French amphibious assets (taking into account those AAW assets in refit & training). No country in their right mind will commit their crown jewels (Carrier / LHD's) to a hostile theatre of operations without at least two or three dedicated AAW's. During GWI an escorting T42 shot down a Silkworm heading for one of the US Carriers, a cruise missile of that size would sink or immobilise most modern Carrier/LHD's.

The RN is the prospect of having only six T45's based on the assumption that they can keep five at sea in absolute emergency. The whole purpose of France's upgraded Carrier/LHD fleet is to allow them to conduct blue-water operations indepenpanicking aboutdently, this will remain a pipe-dream until more AAW assets arrive on the scene.

In scenario like you mentioned above the LHDs would operate with a carrier battle group. Like Sea Toby, said the French military already has prepositioned assets in their territories. The French AG will consisit of two Mistrals. The French can conduct indepedent CG and AG bluewater operations by themselves.

 

[riksavage]

In scenario like you mentioned above the LHDs would operate with a carrier battle group. Like Sea Toby, said the French military already has prepositioned assets in their territories. The French AG will consisit of two Mistrals. The French can conduct indepedent CG and AG bluewater operations by themselves.

May be so, but what assets does the carrier battleground have to deal with a salvo of Sunburn/Silkworms. The Sunburn is a hypersonic missile, which PAAMS/ASTER30 was designed specifically to mitigate (T45 configuration anyway). If you only have one Horizon on-station to defend an entire Carrier Battle Group you will be pushing your luck.

No one can make the assumption that you will always be operating in friendly waters or against a weak foe with a limited offensive capability. As I said before it's easier for a potential foe to buy lots of land based Sunburn's than stand-up a modern airforce. Just look at the stats:

SS-N-22 Sunburn

WARHEAD - 750 LB. CONVENTIONAL OR 200 KILOTON NUCLEAR
RANGE - 90 MILES
WING SPAN - 6.2 FEET
BODY DIA. - 2.5 FEET
LENGTH - 31.9 FEET
WEIGHT - 9,920 POUNDS
ENGINE - INTEGRATED ROCKET BOOSTER RAMJET SUSTAINER
GUIDANCE - ACTIVE RADAR HOMING SEA SKIMMER
SPEED - MACH 2.5 AT SEA LEVEL

These puppies were designed specifically as carrier killers and fired in salvos travelling at Mach 2.5 the French Navy would be pushed to stop all of these slipping through, even with the addition of carrier based assets. This type of threat can only be truely mitigated by a long range theatre defence system or by destroying the launch platform. A 750 LB warhead smacking into the side of a French LHD will not be a pretty sight. Current versions can be fitted to fast attack craft, land based mounts and/or destroyers. Iran, China and Russia already have these stockpiled.

In my humble opinion France needs a balanced fleet - 2 x Carriers?, 3-4 x LHD's and just two Horizons does not make for a balanced fleet.

 

[harryriedl]

the reliance on E2 for defense of the fleet is troublesome as you can't always count on being able to fly and having your defense reliant on 4 AWACS to protect anganist all threats not just aircraft but missiles and reling on the L16 for targeting info. just seems like a quite a vulnerable point of failure

 

[swerve]

Well, the other W. European navies don't have E2Cs, so grasping at straws hear. The French carrier group is networked, so MN's proint defense doctrine is sound. The French carrier groups could get by with the FREDA serving as their main AAW asset. In 2022, the MN's AAW capabitiles will be much better than they are now.

If the weather's too bad to take off, you're in deep, deep, trouble. Land-based aircraft could still be operating in weather that closes down a carrier, & you're vulnerable to aircraft from carriers outside the worst of the weather. You also have a single point of failure, in the carrier. Damage to the carrier, a landing or take-off accident, & what then? The fleet is unprotected.

You need ship-mounted long range radars. You need good AAW ships.

In scenario like you mentioned above the LHDs would operate with a carrier battle group. ....

So, when CdG is in refit, the Mistrals stay in port, do they?

 

[youpii]

If the weather's too bad to take off, you're in deep, deep, trouble. Land-based aircraft could still be operating in weather that closes down a carrier, & you're vulnerable to aircraft from carriers outside the worst of the weather. You also have a single point of failure, in the carrier. Damage to the carrier, a landing or take-off accident, & what then? The fleet is unprotected.

You need ship-mounted long range radars. You need good AAW ships.

So, when CdG is in refit, the Mistrals stay in port, do they?

Yes, AAW destroyers are there to protect CVs & LHDs, not the other way around.
For example, if the carrier is damaged, the escort should still be able to protect it on the way home.

And the basis of military equipment is redundancy. Single point of failure are meant to fail at wartime, so you need backups.

 

[Spacearrow99]

If the weather's too bad to take off, you're in deep, deep, trouble. Land-based aircraft could still be operating in weather that closes down a carrier, & you're vulnerable to aircraft from carriers outside the worst of the weather. You also have a single point of failure, in the carrier. Damage to the carrier, a landing or take-off accident, & what then? The fleet is unprotected.

You need ship-mounted long range radars. You need good AAW ships.


So, when CdG is in refit, the Mistrals stay in port, do they?

The French have very good AAW ships the Horizons Well, if the CdG is in refit, the Horizons would escort the Mistrals. The French carrier group is the most well protected in Europe. The French Fleet is networked, and the FREMM point defense system uses the Aster 15. Which much better missile than the British V L Seawolf. The MN will be overlapping the FREMM' radar coverage in their CGs and AGs.