How Good is the J-10?

[Toptob]

Hi all, I've read this whole thread. And I have to say that I've learned absolutely nothing new from it. All I read where some very good comments, people misunderstanding it and flaming things that have absolutely nothing to do with the J-10.
I wonder why topics about asian stuff always turn into flamewars.

[ontopic]
Why do all you people find it so important to prove that the chendu didnt copy anything with the J-10? I mean is it a bad thing? I think its a pretty bad ass AC, and something the Chinese can be proud of. But that doesn't explain the striking resemblance with the Lavi. Ofcoarse the J-10 is bigger, and I'm sure its a totally different aircraft. But having the test data, and build specs of another aircraft should be very helpfull. And I do think that they took a lot from the lavi.

So convince me otherwise, show me the J-10 is completely original. And there was nothing taken from any non Chinese design. (for a change). But don't try saying its bigger, or that I don't understand AC design ( which I don't BTW) but tell me about AC design so that I can understand why they couldnt have taken any design aspect of another aircraft.

I also havent read a lot about the J-10's actual capability's. How is it compared to lets say an F-16/ Gripen/ EF2000/ rafale/ mig29 ovt/ mig35 ? I mean how are the Chinese avionics these days? Are they on par with western avionics? I dont believe that, but I'd be happily convinced otherwise.

I think there are a lot of very smart people on this forum, and I hate it that there are some dimwits fouling up very interesting threads with bogus comments and thus diverting a thread to something ludicrous and not interesting at all. Please smart people teach me about the J-10 and stop arguing about whether or not this aircraft is going to be stealth with supercruise carrier capable with a range of a gazillion miles, while defeating everything in the sky's today. Because thats not the case and it wont be.

This is what I think; The flight envelope of the J-10 should be similar to that of an F-16 of eurocanard. But the avionics will not be as good, I dont know how much less good ( so inform me plz). And from what I gather from Sinodefence, wiki and several blogs the engine isnt very good judged by western standards.

And how is the maintenance situation with the J-10, is it complicated or expensive?

grtz Toprob

 

[Nysindhi]

frankenstein Fighter

If you have looked very closely to the Dynamic's of the plain you can every easily see its a frankenstein form the first look it self, its is a combo of F-16 form the belly to the tail, form the nose to the belly its a sukhoi and underneath its a UK E2000 as well as if you look at the delta wing that just suits the purpose of flight but the more detail look u can see its like mirage delta layout.

But putting togather is no a bad thing its if it will work out right unlike its next door resident India who made there Tejas from scratch J10 seem to be a piece of this and a piece of that and ITS TO be noted that it was BUIT BY pakistan and China togather so i am sure you can see many character of F-16 and its weapon system that pakistan happyly provided China with to copy but how good it is will only be found if it is ever involved in a actual combat.

 

[Bonza]

If you have looked very closely to the Dynamic's of the plain you can every easily see its a frankenstein form the first look it self, its is a combo of F-16 form the belly to the tail, form the nose to the belly its a sukhoi and underneath its a UK E2000 as well as if you look at the delta wing that just suits the purpose of flight but the more detail look u can see its like mirage delta layout.

But putting togather is no a bad thing its if it will work out right unlike its next door resident India who made there Tejas from scratch J10 seem to be a piece of this and a piece of that and ITS TO be noted that it was BUIT BY pakistan and China togather so i am sure you can see many character of F-16 and its weapon system that pakistan happyly provided China with to copy but how good it is will only be found if it is ever involved in a actual combat.

Quite a bit of conjecture there, if you'll pardon my saying so. I have some serious doubts when you say Pakistan provided an F-16 to China for the purposes of developing the J-10 - can you provide a source for further reading?

 

[Nysindhi]

What i mean by Pakistan giving China a F-16 refers to the cockpit layout as well as the weapons system software know how and the lay out of the critical parts, It is easy for bunch of Chinese inspectors from its Air force to be in pakistan and take measurements, images, type of materials as well as the function of sertain parts of the aircraft that might be sensative for its function and apply it it J-10.

 

[Scorpion82]

Hi all, I've read this whole thread. And I have to say that I've learned absolutely nothing new from it. All I read where some very good comments, people misunderstanding it and flaming things that have absolutely nothing to do with the J-10.
I wonder why topics about asian stuff always turn into flamewars.

[ontopic]
Why do all you people find it so important to prove that the chendu didnt copy anything with the J-10? I mean is it a bad thing? I think its a pretty bad ass AC, and something the Chinese can be proud of. But that doesn't explain the striking resemblance with the Lavi. Ofcoarse the J-10 is bigger, and I'm sure its a totally different aircraft. But having the test data, and build specs of another aircraft should be very helpfull. And I do think that they took a lot from the lavi.

So convince me otherwise, show me the J-10 is completely original. And there was nothing taken from any non Chinese design. (for a change). But don't try saying its bigger, or that I don't understand AC design ( which I don't BTW) but tell me about AC design so that I can understand why they couldnt have taken any design aspect of another aircraft.

I also havent read a lot about the J-10's actual capability's. How is it compared to lets say an F-16/ Gripen/ EF2000/ rafale/ mig29 ovt/ mig35 ? I mean how are the Chinese avionics these days? Are they on par with western avionics? I dont believe that, but I'd be happily convinced otherwise.

I think there are a lot of very smart people on this forum, and I hate it that there are some dimwits fouling up very interesting threads with bogus comments and thus diverting a thread to something ludicrous and not interesting at all. Please smart people teach me about the J-10 and stop arguing about whether or not this aircraft is going to be stealth with supercruise carrier capable with a range of a gazillion miles, while defeating everything in the sky's today. Because thats not the case and it wont be.

This is what I think; The flight envelope of the J-10 should be similar to that of an F-16 of eurocanard. But the avionics will not be as good, I dont know how much less good ( so inform me plz). And from what I gather from Sinodefence, wiki and several blogs the engine isnt very good judged by western standards.

And how is the maintenance situation with the J-10, is it complicated or expensive?

grtz Toprob

The chinese are quite tight lipped about this aircraft and therefore we haven't much info on that aircraft. A proper analysis isn't possible due the lack of data and you can make some good estimations at best. I'm sure the chinese make good progress in avionics development, but it is evident that they still rely to much on foreign help. Weren't the J-10s radar a russian modell either? The J-10 certainly is a fine plane for a nation which built modified copies of airframes for decades. I can't see the chinese to have caught up with the russians or western countries, however.

 

[Bonza]

What i mean by Pakistan giving China a F-16 refers to the cockpit layout as well as the weapons system software know how and the lay out of the critical parts, It is easy for bunch of Chinese inspectors from its Air force to be in pakistan and take measurements, images, type of materials as well as the function of sertain parts of the aircraft that might be sensative for its function and apply it it J-10.

So that's a no on sources, then?

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way, it just sounds like you're speculating.

 

[tphuang]

What i mean by Pakistan giving China a F-16 refers to the cockpit layout as well as the weapons system software know how and the lay out of the critical parts, It is easy for bunch of Chinese inspectors from its Air force to be in pakistan and take measurements, images, type of materials as well as the function of sertain parts of the aircraft that might be sensative for its function and apply it it J-10.

hmm, why would they need that, when they had access to the Lavi. The greatest help from the Lavi project to J-10 is the development of a digital FBW system and also modern avionics architecture. Of course, J-10B will be an entirely new story. And with the success of the Chinese electronics industry, it really doesn't need that much help in this area anymore. Engine is a far bigger concern.

 

[shag]

The greatest help from the Lavi project to J-10 is the development of a digital FBW system and also modern avionics architecture.

hey tphuang. Do you have a source for that ? I do see a use for looking into the pakistani F-16s. they are from a more modern block then the ones lavi was derived from and as such their avionics would most likely be superior. Not claiming that chinese actually looked at them, but it might be possible.

 

[OPSSG]

hmm, why would they need that, when they had access to the Lavi. The greatest help from the Lavi project to J-10 is the development of a digital FBW system and also modern avionics architecture. Of course, J-10B will be an entirely new story. And with the success of the Chinese electronics industry, it really doesn't need that much help in this area anymore. Engine is a far bigger concern.

@tphuang, good to see you make are rare appearance here. Thought I'll take this chance to ask some J10 questions as sometimes I'm a little confused by the fanboys. I know that information on China's J10B is a bit speculative (link to J10B info on Sino-defence), so I hope I'm not putting you on the spot. Here goes my questions on the J10 and the J10B upgrades:

(i) Have I missed out any main upgrades to the aircraft's acrobatic abilities? (I understand that on the aircraft itself, the air inlet has been changed and that a TVC engine is being planned for enhanced maneuverability). Or is the talk on a TVC engine more towards fanboy speculation?

(ii) Do you think the China will retrofit the earlier J-10s with the new J-10B ECM suite and pods (going by China's past behaviour)? Or is China's tendency to seek to focus on building more J-10Bs, as fast as they can, when it becomes available?

(iii) Do you have any news on J-10 production rates? Is it still at 2 or 3 a month?

Off-topic: One source has speculated that China may be planning to sell a 039 Song class submarine to Thailand (link to relevant DT thread). Can you keep a look out for more news on this?

 

[tphuang]

hey tphuang. Do you have a source for that ? I do see a use for looking into the pakistani F-16s. they are from a more modern block then the ones lavi was derived from and as such their avionics would most likely be superior. Not claiming that chinese actually looked at them, but it might be possible.

First of all, Pakistani F-16s were the most basic variant, so what was on the Lavi was more advanced. And from all I've read, this myth about Pakistan military being a revolving door for PLA inspection is complete nonsense.
Now, from all we read in interviews with Russian engineers that helped with the project, Israel was very active in development. If you look at the planes themselves, they do have some common air frame features, but J-10 certainly contains many other features too. Whereas for things like FBW, advanced slotted array radar and modern avionics architecture, China was really far behind in these areas. And recently, we just got an idea of how involved Israel was in assisting the KJ-2000 project. China learnt a lot of the concept in modern avionics, network centric architecture and quality control in mass production from Israel.

@tphuang, good to see you make are rare appearance here. Thought I'll take this chance to ask some J10 questions as sometimes I'm a little confused by the fanboys. I know that information on China's J10B is a bit speculative (link to J10B info on Sino-defence), so I hope I'm not putting you on the spot. Here goes my questions on the J10 and the J10B upgrades:

(i) Have I missed out any main upgrades to the aircraft's acrobatic abilities? (I understand that on the aircraft itself, the air inlet has been changed and that a TVC engine is being planned for enhanced maneuverability). Or is the talk on a TVC engine more towards fanboy speculation?

(ii) Do you think the China will retrofit the earlier J-10s with the new J-10B ECM suite and pods (going by China's past behaviour)? Or is China's tendency to seek to focus on building more J-10Bs, as fast as they can, when it becomes available?

(iii) Do you have any news on J-10 production rates? Is it still at 2 or 3 a month?

Off-topic: One source has speculated that China may be planning to sell a 039 Song class submarine to Thailand (link to relevant DT thread). Can you keep a look out for more news on this?

I think TVC engine is certainly a possibility, but it's not on any J-10 yet.

They already retrofitted a lot of earlier production J-10s with more advanced avionics/radar. I think they've added more multi-role capability to the plane, because we are actually seeing PGMs on J-10 recently (we didn't see that when it first came out). But as for J-10B, I'm really not sure how much can be transferred because they redesigned the plane to allow for more space for different electronics and also AESA radar. But I think they can certainly use some of the technology they develop/test on J-10B to develop similar components for J-10A

J-10's production rate was 4+ per months in late 2005 to 2006. It basically stopped in late 2007 to early this year because of the engine situation. It should have no problem going back to that 4+ rate.

As for Song, China is certainly trying to export Song to Thailand, but whether or not Thailand wants it is another issue.

 

[OPSSG]

Thanks for the reply, the details are much appreciated.

I think TVC engine is certainly a possibility, but it's not on any J-10 yet.

In particular, thanks for the above confirmation.