F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action

Alonso Quijano

New Member
must also have the assembly of the Scorpene in brazil and the development of a nuclear submarine between Brazil and France.

All this together has made buying the rafale normal for brasil.

no more spin.

I think France had to cede much to sell something at last.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...Plus Brazil could use the naval version of the Rafale with their ex-French aircraft carrier. Those aging Skyhawks are looking more and more toothless. I understand the buy isn't large enough now for naval Rafale aircraft, but one never knows what the future will bring....
The French have placed the first batch of 9 naval Rafales (F.1 standard) in reserve. Plans to upgrade them seem to have been canned. If Brazil made an offer, I'm sure it would be viewed favourably. The price should be relatively modest. They're air-air only, but Brazil has A-4s for air-surface.

Secret Défense: La Marine place (déjà) neuf Rafale "sous cocon"
L'aéronavale vient en effet de placer neuf de ses avions Rafale "sous cocon", comme nous l'a confirmé l'état-major de la Marine. C'est-à-dire qu'ils sont de facto retirés du service.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
And the other interesting thing is that, in spite of all the claims of SH being so extremely capable, and in spite of having the advantage of being backed by the US, it has sold only a limited number (is it 24?) SH to Australia -- SH has basically lost all other (export) competitions it has participated in so far! Well done for "the most capable" 4. gen a/c, backed by the worlds sole superpower....
You really think this is an indicator of the aircraft's capability, do you?

Never mind that it's the primary frontline combat aircraft operated by the largest navy on the planet...

Never mind that the nature of United States technology transfers and the prevailing politics of the day are going to have a massive influence on ANY export of military technology to a foreign power...

No, you're right, it must be the aircraft that's at fault.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
When the British complain about US technology transfers, one of the USA's best friends and ally, less important friendly nations will bring up the subject as well. And frankly, the USA sadly doesn't have a history of matching what other nations will do with technology transfers...,

This French deal with Brazil should reveal this fact upfront.... loud and clear....

Twisting arms on arms sales isn't really a great way to sell arms.....
 

the road runner

Active Member
You misunderstood my question completely...

In your previous post you suggested that the high operating costs of the SH (compared to the operating costs of the Rafale) was because the SH is "more capable" than the Rafale.

I was questioning this link between operating costs and "capability" of the aircraft. I was not questioning the "capability" of the SH, since I have little reliable information to confirm or dismiss the claim that SH is "more capable" than Rafale.
My mistake i do apoligise,but i still think the APG-79 ASEA makes the Rhino more capabile:)

I used the single-engine F-35 as an example of an a/c that is clearly more capable than the a/c it is replacing (the F-16) but will still have lower operating costs than the F-16. This is not just claimed by LM, also independent experts (i.e. the Norwegian evaluation commitee) is claiming this. I used this as an example to make the point that I did not necessarily see the link between capabilities and operating costs.
Time will tell,i think its virtually impossible to compare operating costs of X versus Y....

Making examples is a well known technique when one is discussing something. It was not meant as "baiting" in any way. It was merely used to illustrate a point I was trying to make.
Agreed...and i apoligise again.All in the spirit of good conversation.......

For your comments above, I don't see they strengthen your claim that the operating costs of the SH is higher because the SH is "more capable".
Give me some time to think about this one:tomato

And the other interesting thing is that, in spite of all the claims of SH being so extremely capable, and in spite of having the advantage of being backed by the US, it has sold only a limited number (is it 24?) SH to Australia -- SH has basically lost all other (export) competitions it has participated in so far! Well done for "the most capable" 4. gen a/c, backed by the worlds sole superpower....
Navy are the ones with a very demanding tasks.......they fight thousands of miles from home in the littorals,taking the fight to the enemy,fighting usually on the enemys turf,for these reason i would not under-estimate a naval platform...especially one of the F18 class...

Regards
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Minister of Defense: Rafale is not a "done deal"

In an official note signed by the Minister of Defense Nelson Jobim, he cites that the Presidential agreement with France was to extend cooperation between the two countries in the aviation sector and that the French government will be responsible for offering competitive and reasonable prices for the Rafale consistent with those paid for by the French armed forces. (IMHO the latter looks just like the USA Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program).

Minister Jobim further states that the F-X2 selection process continues with Air Force High Command in continued negotiations with the three participants where offers are being studied and eventually redefined.

Minister of Defense Official Statement on the Presidential F-X2 Announcment
 

Sea Toby

New Member
A deal is never done officially until there are signatures on the dotted line. But having a press conference with the highest national officials announcing a deal is forthcoming next year is reading the tea leaves and their minds.... Basically they have agreed to negotiate a deal....

Defense personnel won't be happy until the signatures are on the dotted line....
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Preview:
Interesting revelations from the FAB F-X2 evaluations:

The Rafale unit price is 40% more than the SH and Gripen.

Cost per flight hour:
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

The fighter package offer for the Rafale does not include the weapons, which must be negotiated separately.

With regards to technology transfer, FAB had asked (4) Brazilian aerospace companies (including Embraer) to evaluate the proposals for ToT. Only one (Atech) put the Rafale in 1st. The other three put the SAAB 1st, Boeing 2nd, and Dassault 3rd.

"Lula ignored the FAB report which took months to prepare, making a political decision without any technical considerations" . . . . . .
 

Sintra

New Member
Preview:
Interesting revelations from the FAB F-X2 evaluations:

The Rafale unit price is 40% more than the SH and Gripen.

Cost per flight hour:
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

The fighter package offer for the Rafale does not include the weapons, which must be negotiated separately.

With regards to technology transfer, FAB had asked (4) Brazilian aerospace companies (including Embraer) to evaluate the proposals for ToT. Only one (Atech) put the Rafale in 1st. The other three put the SAAB 1st, Boeing 2nd, and Dassault 3rd.

"Lula ignored the FAB report which took months to prepare, making a political decision without any technical considerations" . . . . . .
Salty

If that piece had been written by the "Defesa Brasil" Team it would be a VERY reliable source, but by the "Valor Econômico"? (an economic magazine for our english speaking friends)
It´s a bit too full of "an unnammed source in the Ministry of defence" for my taste!
Have you seen todays Nassif interview with Nelson Jobim (Brasil Defence Minister)?
Luis Nassif:

Now I talked with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, on negotiations with the French bidding for the FX - the fighters of the Brazilian Air Force.

The table is as follows.

In April 2008, Lula had to reactivate the project, which had been paralyzed due to the economic crisis of 2005. Responsible for raising the proposals, FAB called for new information to competitors. Five had been made: F/A18 Boeing, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, Saab Gripen and Sukhoi Su-35.

In October, Eurofighter, Lockheed and Sukhoi were eliminated. The first, because it is a consortium of several European countries, which hamper the transfer of technology. The Lockheed because there is no more precise information about the control that had the technology. And Sukhoi not to accept speaking in technology transfer. They were F18, Boeing, the new Gripen NG, which does not exist, and the Rafale.

The aircraft continued with the work and, in October 2008, asked the three finalists for the final offer. He began to work, then, in a report with the technical details of the proposals, individual aspects of the aircraft, price and maintenance cost.

The promises of Sarkozy

As the work progressed, the first signs of the approaching French President Nicolas Sarkozy with President Lula. The Frenchman has expressed its intention to announce the terms of the military agreement Brazil-France on 7 September.

Feeling that presidential intervention might be favorable to, Dassault played up the price of the proposal. It would not be possible because the process had not yet closed.

In the first conversation they had, Lula warned Mr Sarkozy of the problems of price and TOT. In addition, the French had not established a market for the sale of Brazilian Rafales. It did not matter only buy technology, but have an environment for the marketing of the product.

On Sunday night there was another meeting, which was invited Jobim. Participated in several Brazilian and French. Among the Brazilians, Brigadier Saito, Commander of the FAB.

In conversation, Sarkozy said he would ensure Brazil needs. Dassault is a private company, but of which 43% is owned by the state EDS - which, however, does not participate in management. Still, Sarkozy gave his word. He said that Dassault fit to make offer competitive and reasonable, and consistent with the values practiced by Dassault for the French armed forces.

On the Brazilian side, there were doubts about these values. And in them were built some kind of cross-subsidy from the French government to the company? It was then decided that these values would be the ceiling for the talks.

Sarkozy also assured the Latin American market exclusively to Brazil. Regarding the cost of maintenance, there were doubts about the cost of flight-hours presented by the French. Ratings reported by Saito indicated that, for a period of 30 years (period of obsolescence), the calculation of the FAB had reached very high value applications.

There was a discussion about the methodology of measurement. In the end, Sarkozy has pledged to talk with Dassault and ensure that offer a fixed price per hour of flight. The roof to be fixed is the one paid by the French armed forces. Beyond that amount, would be a counter, Dassault.

Finally, this was the unrestricted transfer of technology and the purchase of ten cargo vessels are being developed by Embraer. EDS has committed to purchase and, if necessary, to participate in the development of the Company.

The next steps

After the conversation, Lula manifestated interest in the French option, given the requirements that have been negotiated. But it was only the first step.

The next day, Jobim informed the president about the need to format the legal process.

There is an ongoing process of selection, substitution of bidding. Came the new fact, the promises of the French government, to be endorsed by Dassault.

The next step is to define the legal procedures for formalizing promised. Then, the new proposal will be compared to the other two selected. And opens the possibility of a counter offer by both. The procedure will be completed with the FAB reviewing the three proposals.

The press, especially foreign, gave the case ended, says Jobim, but it did not happen. There are a number of paths to be followed, as the prices of the Rafale, the conditions of French funding. If you hit the hammer, the Brazilian government loses the conditions for extract more benefits from Dassault. In any case, it is expected for the end of the year to conclude the negotiations
iG - Blogs e Colunistas - Lista completa de todos os blogs e colunas presentes no portal iG

I will be astounded if the RAFALE does loose this one.

Cheers
 

JackMS

New Member
Salty

If that piece had been written by the "Defesa Brasil" Team it would be a VERY reliable source, but by the "Valor Econômico"? (an economic magazine for our english speaking friends)
It´s a bit too full of "an unnammed source in the Ministry of defence" for my taste!
Have you seen todays Nassif interview with Nelson Jobim (Brasil Defence Minister)?


iG - Blogs e Colunistas - Lista completa de todos os blogs e colunas presentes no portal iG

I will be astounded if the RAFALE does loose this one.

Cheers
Dear Sintra

Cost & ToT actually are issues according to the article you have posted:

[...]
In the first conversation they had, Lula warned Mr Sarkozy of the problems of price and TOT. In addition, the French had not established a market for the sale of Brazilian Rafales. It did not matter only buy technology, but have an environment for the marketing of the product.

On Sunday night there was another meeting, which was invited Jobim. Participated in several Brazilian and French. Among the Brazilians, Brigadier Saito, Commander of the FAB.

In conversation, Sarkozy said he would ensure Brazil needs. Dassault is a private company, but of which 43% is owned by the state EDS - which, however, does not participate in management. Still, Sarkozy gave his word. He said that Dassault fit to make offer competitive and reasonable, and consistent with the values practiced by Dassault for the French armed forces.

On the Brazilian side, there were doubts about these values. And in them were built some kind of cross-subsidy from the French government to the company? It was then decided that these values would be the ceiling for the talks.

Sarkozy also assured the Latin American market exclusively to Brazil. Regarding the cost of maintenance, there were doubts about the cost of flight-hours presented by the French. Ratings reported by Saito indicated that, for a period of 30 years (period of obsolescence), the calculation of the FAB had reached very high value applications.

There was a discussion about the methodology of measurement. In the end, Sarkozy has pledged to talk with Dassault and ensure that offer a fixed price per hour of flight. The roof to be fixed is the one paid by the French armed forces. Beyond that amount, would be a counter, Dassault.
[...]

Cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
For those who wished for a YouTube video in English for the KC-390 tansport/tanker aircraft.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcGA5qqJwA]YouTube - EMBRAER KC-390 FAB´s new Tactical Military Cargo[/ame]
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Can this thing take off in a shorter leangth than the C-130, aka STOL?

If so, the US should commit to buy some for the Navy to use as COD and tankers. If the C-130 could operate from a carrier then the KC-390 should not be a problem. This would help the F-18 bid.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Can this thing take off in a shorter leangth than the C-130, aka STOL?

If so, the US should commit to buy some for the Navy to use as COD and tankers. If the C-130 could operate from a carrier then the KC-390 should not be a problem. This would help the F-18 bid.
The KC 390 is about the size of a Hercules, C-130, not a Viking S-3.... or Greyhound....

Sorry I wrote initially KC-130....
 
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SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The KC-130 IS a Hercules.

My question still is, can the KC-390 takeoff within the same parameters as a C-130? If so, then it should be able to on a carrier as the C-130 has done so WITHOUT JATO.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The KC-130 IS a Hercules.

My question still is, can the KC-390 takeoff within the same parameters as a C-130? If so, then it should be able to on a carrier as the C-130 has done so WITHOUT JATO.
Even if a KC-390 could take off from a carrier, it's about the same size as a C-130 which has a big spot factor. I can't see it as being practial.

That -390 does look like a very good piece of kit, being in the ballpark of a C-130 but with some (assumed) advantages... Will be interesting to follow.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The KC-130 IS a Hercules.

My question still is, can the KC-390 takeoff within the same parameters as a C-130? If so, then it should be able to on a carrier as the C-130 has done so WITHOUT JATO.
Another advantage is a higher speed, getting there quicker than a C-130. I haven't a clue about take off runway length.

While the aircraft may not lift a NZ LAV, it can lift several different APCs. I am sure that if they wanted to change this aircraft to lift another metric ton or two it could be arranged....more thrust, more wing, or winglets....
 
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Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) released an official note with regards to the F-X2 selection process. (in Portuguese)

The high points are:

1) Negotiations will continue with the three contenders which may have the opportunity improve and expand their offers.

2) FAB will complete a "technical" evaluations of the contenders whilst the Government will make a "political" and "strategic" evaluations.

3) Five prioritized "technical" areas will be evaluated by FAB
- technology transfer
- weapons systems for use by Brazil
- commercial offsets
- operational aspects
- commercial aspects (costs)

The note also points out that the selected aircraft will eventually replace the FAB F-2000, F-5, and A-1 fleets.
 

JackMS

New Member
Project F-X2 – Clarification


(Source: Brazilian Air Force; issued Sept. 11, 2009)


(Issued in Portuguese; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)



The Air Force Command this week (Sept. 8) told the manufacturers short-listed for the Project F-X2 competition (Boeing, Dassault and Saab), that they will be able to submit new proposals to improve their offers to the selection process of new fighter aircraft to defend the country.

In a statement this week, the Defense Ministry said the negotiations with the three finalists continue, with the possibility of expanding and redefining the proposals.

In the next step, the F-X2 Project Management Committee will complete the technical evaluation, and prepare the final report to be submitted to the High Command of the Air Force and, later, to the Ministry of Defense.

"We will do technical analysis. The government will analyze policy and strategic aspects, "said Gen. Juniti Saito, Commander of the Air Force.

The French government has already made a commitment to offer Rafale fighters (from Dassault) at competitive and reasonable prices, comparable to those paid by the French military, and with transfer of technology, among others. This week, the other two competitors have also confirmed their interest in further bids.

According to Gen. Dirceu Noro, Chairman of the F-X2 Project Management Committee, participants are being evaluated in five priority areas: technology transfer; weapons systems [for Brazil]; offset and participation of Brazilian industry; technical-operational performance; and commercial aspects [price, financing and interest rates—Ed.].

Participants in the F-X2 Project will be evaluated according to how they score on various questions, for example on the level of technology transfer that they offer. The methodology of this work has been refined and applied by the Air Force since the early 1980s, when the country participated in the joint development of a fighter with Italy (AMX Project).

The result of the partnership with the Italians, and the development of a tactical attack aircraft which was used in combat (in Kosovo), was a learning experience for Brazilian industry. The Embraer 145 and 190 jet transport aircraft benefited from technology obtained during this period.

To understand the issues involved, it is worth noting that in the field of weapon systems, for example, the goal is to guarantee that Brazil will be able to use its own weapons, extant or to be developed in future, without any restriction.

So far, the selection process comprises more than 26,000 pages of documents, including offers and counter-offers, and these documents will serve as the basis for drafting and management of the contract to be signed. The Air Force Command plans to complete the technical phase of this process in October.

The FX-2 Project differs from the first selection process, which covered the purchase of 12 fighters to equip one air-defense squadron. In the current process, the model to be chosen will be the platform that will gradually replace the air force’s entire fighter fleet (F-2000, F-5 and A-1 fighters). It will be an investment over the next three decades.


UNDERSTANDING THE PROCESS

May 2008

The Air Force Command, given the operational needs for the coming decades and following the combat aircraft retirement schedule of the Brazilian Air Force, on May 15 established the Project F-X2Management Committee, with the purpose of conducting the acquisition process of new fighter aircraft to be incorporated into the Air Force

The aim is to provide FAB a standardized fleet of multirole fighter aircraft, with flight operations in Brazil planned to begin in 2015, and to remain in service for about 30 years. The plan provides for the gradual replacement of the fleet of Mirage-2000, F-5M and A-1M.

To this end, six companies were pre-selected and were asked to submit information (Request For Information, RFI): the American Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F-35 Lightning II), France's Dassault (Rafale), Russia's Rosoboronexport (Sukhoi SU-35), Sweden's Saab (Gripen) and the European consortium Eurofighter (Typhoon).

The process of choosing the winning aircraft takes into account primarily the fulfillment of operational requirements stipulated by the FAB. Other criteria used in the evaluation relate to logistics, costs, conditions offers of compensation trade and the degree of technology transfer for the Brazilian aeronautics industry.

June to November 2008

The Air force Command completed another stage of the selection process of the new multi-role fighter aircraft.

The Project F-X2 Management Committee (CGPF-X2) conducted studies for the evaluation of pre-selected aircraft (Boeing F-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Adv, Saab Gripen NG and Sukhoi SU-35) in order to develop a short-list.

The implementation of the short-list was done to guarantee the fulfillment of operational requirements for fighter aircraft and allow the further evaluations of weapon systems candidates were selected.

The studies were based on information provided by companies in response to requests for information (Request For Information, RFI) issued in June 2008. Information provided by participating companies were evaluated systematically, considering aspects related to operational areas, logistics, technical, offsets and technology transfer to the national defense industry.

Thus, assessments were concentrated in the finalists following aircraft: Boeing (F-18 E / F Super Hornet), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen NG).

The 36 aircraft that make up the 1st batch should be delivered from 2014, with a life expectancy of at least 30 years. Thus, over the next few years they will gradually replace the current Mirage 2000, F-5M and A-1M fighters. The knowledge and technological skills acquired in this acquisition will help ensure that Brazil meets the conditions required to produce, or participate in the production, of 5th-generation fighter in the medium- and long-term future.

On Oct. 30, 2008 the Project F-X2 Management Committee issued a Request For Proposals (RFP) to the companies that had been short-listed: Boeing (F-18E / F Super Hornet), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen NG).

Upon receipt of the Request for Proposals, the companies had until February 2, 2009 to submit proposals detailing the commercial, technical, operational, logistical, industrial, offset and technology transfer aspects of their offers.

February – 2009

On Feb. 2, the Air Force Command received the proposals from the participating companies selected in the short list: Boeing (F-18E / F Super Hornet), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen NG).

At this point, the Project F-X2 Management Committee started working on the technical analysis of their offers in response to the RFP.

March - 2009

- The Command of the Air Force began meeting for clarifications with the companies participating in Project F-X2, in order to get more details about their offers.

The Project F-X2 Management Committee, through its technical team, conducted a thorough analysis, in accordance with appropriate methodology, keeping the focus on commercial aspects, technical, operational, logistical, compensation trade, industry offsets, and technology transfer.

On March 30, the Commission initiated the technical visits to companies competing for the Project F-X2, which included in-flight evaluation of the aircraft, to verify the technical, operational, logistics and industrial proposals. During this period, the project management teams also visited and evaluated industrial and logistical installations, maintenance workshops, systems development labs, and operational air force squadrons.

May 2009

Maintaining the policy of transparency in the selection process of new fighter aircraft, the Air Force Command on May 4 received the revised offers from participating companies for consideration and analysis by members of the Project F-X2 Management Committee.

June 2009

The Air Force Command ended the first round of data collection from companies participating in the process.

July - September 2009

The Commission carries out collection and analysis of additional information obtained from the tender finalists.

-ends-
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Anyone get the feeling that the whole "early award to Rafale" was little more than a stunt, to get a better price/deal from the other entrants?

I sure as hell do...
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Anyone get the feeling that the whole "early award to Rafale" was little more than a stunt, to get a better price/deal from the other entrants?

I sure as hell do...
I'm with you on that one mate...particularly the quote in an article in Brazzil Mag that had Lula stating "Soon I will be getting these fighter jets for free".

If the quote wasn't taken WAY out of context, the colour and movement around the Rafale seems to be political BS at its finest...
 
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