WHich platform do you prefer?
F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action
- Thread starter drg
- Start date
The Rhino. It's the only one with a working AESA system, known and reliable logistics support, and plenty of proven latest generation avionics and weapons. A nice tidy package which already includes weapons and spares. The FAB can have it combat ready sooner than the rest. Pretty much a turn-key solution.
You've some valid points there.
I have yet to make an opinion myself, because i've a hard time to get a grip what your government actually looks for in this purchase. one day its TOT the other day its political gain, and i dont know enought about your Airforce, organisation, threat level. doktirine. to give a qualified opinion. Im in no doubt that what ever platform you chose the defenece point of view is secured. so then it comes to weapon of choice, costs, configuration. and so on.
if you have time and energy i would love a short breifing on the above questions. thank you in advance.
It depends on who you listen to or where you read as to what the opinions are. But in general IMHO:
The public climbs on the bandwagon which points to the Rafale.
Industry is split, relationships have been cultivated for a long time between the competitors and Brazilian industry.
The military leans towards the Rhino for logistics support, proven systems, and they do prefer to work with the USA armed forces.
The politicians push buzzwords like "technology transfer", "political cooperation", or "embargo" with little regard or knowledge to real world contexts.
The last group especially the President will most likely make that "final decision" which hopefully will be the same as the FAB choice. Pity if it's not since FAB as the end user will have to live with that mistake for the next 40+ years.
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Thanks mate for the vote of confidence. I am very biased with my opinion since I am not Brazilian and maintain a close relationship with US defense industry and the Brazilian military since the early 90's. It would indeed be a long discussion which I am not at liberty to discuss in an open forum.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Well, it will indeed be interesting to see the final choice. As it appears the Government supports the "Rafale". The Brazilian Industry the "Gripen" and the FAB the "Super Hornet".
Vive L’Empereur!
Bill Sweetman
Defense Technology International
November 2009
Editorial – Insight
What does the president of the world’s fifth-biggest economy, who stands 5 ft. 6 in. on a good day and is married to a stunning ex-model who does a mean job on some of Georges Brassens’ foulest lyrics, do for fun? The answer is: become the world’s greatest weapons salesman.
The idea that politics intrudes in arms sales has about as much news value as an assertion that Jenna Jameson’s virtue may not be intact. Mais sacre bleu, Sarko, there’s got to be a limit somewhere.
The mess that surrounds Brazil’s choice of a new fighter aircraft is not a case for international codes of conduct in defense business. They would never be enforced even if everyone agreed to such a thing. But they are an argument for national self-restraint.
There’s no dispute as to the facts. In September, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva announced that Brazil was going to buy 36 Dassault Rafale fighters. The air force responded by confirming that their evaluation (including the Gripen NG and Super Hornet) was still under way, thank you. Embraer stated that it regarded the Gripen NG industrial package as more attractive, and then rapidly retracted the statement.
In military terms, it was understantable that the decision was close. Franco-Brazilian ties are close, and in aviation date to Aerospatiale’s transatlantic flights in the 1930s. The Rafale is also a proven aircraft with a fully funded upgrade program. Twin engines and long range are an advantage for a country with maritime interests and a vast hinterland.
The Gripen NG promises lower cost and a remarkable level of performance and technology in a package barely more than half the size of Rafale. It’s also starting life in an era of commercially derived electronics and software, where Rafale may face some obsolescence issues. But it’s a new program and people are understandably nervous that they will end up being the only operator of the NG, alongside with Sweden’s small air force.
Industrially, Embraer’s preference for the Gripen is interesting. A company that’s energetic and smart enough to bound from nowhere in commercial airplanes to 30, 50 and then 90 seats in just two decades, and to break into business aviation as well, clearly has a better-than-average record of predicting the future. The company has a successful partnership with Saab on airborne warning and control systems.
I suspect Embraer has two reasons to favor Gripen. The first is that it wants to demonstrate it has the chops for a full-scale development program, not just an upgrade step for Rafale. The second is reflected in Lula’s statement that France would let Brazil build any other Rafales ordered in South America – but how many of those will there be? Embraer, it’s likely, believes that the Gripen has more upside.
More contradictions emerged as the story unfolded, with France apparently agreeing, to buy 10-15 KC-390 airlifters from Embraer and even becoming involved in the program. I will bet you Louis XIII to illegal rustic marc that the announcement was news to the French Air Force, which is committed to the A400M and has been searching under the mattress for the money to replace its decrepit tankers. I love the guys of Dassault as much as anyone, but let’s say that their last jet transport venture began with MER and ended in DE; their experience is in fighters and high-end corporate jets, and I am not sure what they could do on the KC-390, except make it more expensive.
Sadly, the time for logic may be past. Lula and Sarkozy have bypassed their professionals and created a strategic alliance, including a jointly developed nuclear submarine (a bold venture but one that may remain a unique toy, while most nations move into bigger conventional subs) and a helicopter industry. Now the problem is this: Sarkozy set out to prove that he could get Rafale sold where his predecessors failed. He has, according to Lula, accomplished that, and to back down would be an epic loss of face for the Elysee Palace.
At a conference on nuclear deterrence in Omaha, Neb., last summer, the boss of France’s strategic air force noted that France considers its nuclear weapons as a response to “an attack on France’s vital interests”, but that it deliberately does not specify what those are. Whether “Making M. le President look like an idiot” in on the list in the bunker somewhere, I don’t know, but I don’t think that President Lula wants to find out.
The deal has been done before the terms are settled, and that doesn’t often work well for either side.
Bill Sweetman
Defense Technology International
November 2009
Editorial – Insight
What does the president of the world’s fifth-biggest economy, who stands 5 ft. 6 in. on a good day and is married to a stunning ex-model who does a mean job on some of Georges Brassens’ foulest lyrics, do for fun? The answer is: become the world’s greatest weapons salesman.
The idea that politics intrudes in arms sales has about as much news value as an assertion that Jenna Jameson’s virtue may not be intact. Mais sacre bleu, Sarko, there’s got to be a limit somewhere.
The mess that surrounds Brazil’s choice of a new fighter aircraft is not a case for international codes of conduct in defense business. They would never be enforced even if everyone agreed to such a thing. But they are an argument for national self-restraint.
There’s no dispute as to the facts. In September, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva announced that Brazil was going to buy 36 Dassault Rafale fighters. The air force responded by confirming that their evaluation (including the Gripen NG and Super Hornet) was still under way, thank you. Embraer stated that it regarded the Gripen NG industrial package as more attractive, and then rapidly retracted the statement.
In military terms, it was understantable that the decision was close. Franco-Brazilian ties are close, and in aviation date to Aerospatiale’s transatlantic flights in the 1930s. The Rafale is also a proven aircraft with a fully funded upgrade program. Twin engines and long range are an advantage for a country with maritime interests and a vast hinterland.
The Gripen NG promises lower cost and a remarkable level of performance and technology in a package barely more than half the size of Rafale. It’s also starting life in an era of commercially derived electronics and software, where Rafale may face some obsolescence issues. But it’s a new program and people are understandably nervous that they will end up being the only operator of the NG, alongside with Sweden’s small air force.
Industrially, Embraer’s preference for the Gripen is interesting. A company that’s energetic and smart enough to bound from nowhere in commercial airplanes to 30, 50 and then 90 seats in just two decades, and to break into business aviation as well, clearly has a better-than-average record of predicting the future. The company has a successful partnership with Saab on airborne warning and control systems.
I suspect Embraer has two reasons to favor Gripen. The first is that it wants to demonstrate it has the chops for a full-scale development program, not just an upgrade step for Rafale. The second is reflected in Lula’s statement that France would let Brazil build any other Rafales ordered in South America – but how many of those will there be? Embraer, it’s likely, believes that the Gripen has more upside.
More contradictions emerged as the story unfolded, with France apparently agreeing, to buy 10-15 KC-390 airlifters from Embraer and even becoming involved in the program. I will bet you Louis XIII to illegal rustic marc that the announcement was news to the French Air Force, which is committed to the A400M and has been searching under the mattress for the money to replace its decrepit tankers. I love the guys of Dassault as much as anyone, but let’s say that their last jet transport venture began with MER and ended in DE; their experience is in fighters and high-end corporate jets, and I am not sure what they could do on the KC-390, except make it more expensive.
Sadly, the time for logic may be past. Lula and Sarkozy have bypassed their professionals and created a strategic alliance, including a jointly developed nuclear submarine (a bold venture but one that may remain a unique toy, while most nations move into bigger conventional subs) and a helicopter industry. Now the problem is this: Sarkozy set out to prove that he could get Rafale sold where his predecessors failed. He has, according to Lula, accomplished that, and to back down would be an epic loss of face for the Elysee Palace.
At a conference on nuclear deterrence in Omaha, Neb., last summer, the boss of France’s strategic air force noted that France considers its nuclear weapons as a response to “an attack on France’s vital interests”, but that it deliberately does not specify what those are. Whether “Making M. le President look like an idiot” in on the list in the bunker somewhere, I don’t know, but I don’t think that President Lula wants to find out.
The deal has been done before the terms are settled, and that doesn’t often work well for either side.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Personally, I think the Super Hornet is the likely winner in India and very close in Brazil. :duel
Just can't beat the "Cost vs Capability Factor"!
That headline of Jane's...
There's a stub more confusing than usual :-D
Ok...so "Super Hornet favourite in Indian and Brazilian tenders"
Is that something that Jane's actually claims, or is it simply flagg
waving from the guys at Boeing, Raytheon and General Electric ?
Has anyone access to the complete article ?
There's a stub more confusing than usual :-D
Ok...so "Super Hornet favourite in Indian and Brazilian tenders"
Is that something that Jane's actually claims, or is it simply flagg
waving from the guys at Boeing, Raytheon and General Electric ?
Has anyone access to the complete article ?
You've just regurgitated an article from 3 weeks ago, the headline of which is a claim made by Boeing & its partners - and commented on it as it is fact or neutral analysis. Good grief, man! Have you no shame?
Crusader2000
Banned Member
I was just expressing my personal opinion. Which, I clearly stated was my own.
Plus, the article was from "Janes". That was posted by another member.
Sounds like you are trying to pick a confrontation???
Ok, so the latest date for the "....And the winner is : " announcement is some time after X-mas.
(...or spring 2010 ? No ? Maybe summer then ?)
:sleepy2
Source :
Jobim diz que definição sobre caças sairá só depois do Natal - Estadao.com.br
Translation result for http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/nacional,jobim-definicao-sobre-cacas-saira-depois-do-natal,471501,0.htm
(...or spring 2010 ? No ? Maybe summer then ?)
:sleepy2
Source :
Jobim diz que definição sobre caças sairá só depois do Natal - Estadao.com.br
Translation result for http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/nacional,jobim-definicao-sobre-cacas-saira-depois-do-natal,471501,0.htm
By that logic they should've gone with Russia in the first place. What better way to balance the US? Or even better, China. I suspect that there are other political interest at play here, then the desire to somehow balance the US. Not that realistically balancing the US is even a real option.
The last minutes efforts continues with a new lower BAFO for every new decision
date the Brazilians announce :
Sweden Offers Brazil Partnership Deal - Defense News
Lulas by now classic statement that : "At this rate we will soon get all the
fighter jets for free." seems to be well behind us now, since Sweden promise
a guaranteed countertrade package worth 175 percent of the aircraft order value.
I think Lula would make a good poker player, he seems to be quite shrewd
and I do not think he blurts out his frogs without a careful laid out plan.
date the Brazilians announce :
Sweden Offers Brazil Partnership Deal - Defense News
Lulas by now classic statement that : "At this rate we will soon get all the
fighter jets for free." seems to be well behind us now, since Sweden promise
a guaranteed countertrade package worth 175 percent of the aircraft order value.
I think Lula would make a good poker player, he seems to be quite shrewd
and I do not think he blurts out his frogs without a careful laid out plan.
I think france is a more interesting partner defensewise than either china nor russia. It's not only airplanes these guys are buying.
Yes there are other interest at play, and many have been citied in this thread, though - without knowing the details of brazilian security thinking - the strategical position of Brazil vis a vis the US seems, at least to me, to be a thing which can be expected to come very high on the list when considering to buy an important weapon platform for the next 30 years. There is an heavy american involvement in colombia, there is an issue with venezuella and across UNASUR, there is a rising selfconfidence and wish to dislodge some/all (depending on whom you ask) of the american influense in the UNASUR countries - to my understanding.
I read the trend in SA and Latin america as (many of) those countries doing exactly that and succeding.
The question is: when you adapt you personal opinions stay away from Weed. because you seems to change opnions alot and build then on rather crictical and non factual sources.
its not wrong to express personala opnions as long as they are based on realiable information and not by heart or one article.