T-90 Tank

[eckherl]

Infantry support is paramount to survival of any tank formation participating in MOUT. The Russians learned their lesson the hard way in 1994 when they rolled their armor columns into Grozney. They encountered stiff resistance from Chechen rebels, many of whom were veterans of the Soviet armed forces. On top of that, Russian communication was notoriously insecure and many of their radio transmissions were being listening into. The result was not pretty.

With that said, tanks can provide valuable direct fire support against fortified positions in urbanized terrain. Other vehicles may fill this role, and perhaps perform better at it, but we are on the subject of tanks afterall. Light anti-tank weapons are by far the biggest threat to modern day MBT in urban areas. Perhaps the availability of active defence systems will enable tanks to play a greater role.


I know a guy from Taiwan that trained with Singaporeans when he was serving his 2 years. I'll ask him about it if I see him online. Problem is I haven't seen him in a few months, so can't promise I'll be able to give you an answer.

Many thanks.

 

[nevidimka]

Relikt, Nakidka, electromagnetic protection. A Whole lot of upgrades for T 7 users, and certainly fit for T 90's.

Now I know why those tanks with Relikt ERA posted earlier has some kinda plastic covering it. Those are actually Nakidka RAM. And the tanks in those pics are tested with those RAM for 2000km+.

And the developer states clearly that the Relikt is twice better than Kontakt 5 Era. Amazing. I wonder why T 90's are selling with Kontakt 5's at all?

http://www.niistali.ru/article/exhib_08_en.htm

 

[Feanor]

After evaluating German Leopard 1A5, Ukranian T-84, French AMX-30B2, Cyprus has announced that it will purchase 41 Russian T-90A, to completement the 41 T-80U/UK already in service. Given that it also need to replace it's EE-9 APCs, and that the last tank purchase (the T-80s) was done in tandem with a BMP-3 purchase we may see that follow it up shortly. So far an interest in Tor M2 systems, and Kornet ATGMs has been stated by the Cypriot government.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=64938&cid=25

I'm not big on Greko-Turkish relations. How will this affect them?

 

[extern]

I'm not big on Greko-Turkish relations. How will this affect them?

The Cyprus problem has made a step ahead since new communist goverment came to power. The peace negotiations are on the way just now. Turkey, Greece both held naval maneures with RuNavy in Mediterrian Sea. In other hand the relation between Turkey and US, Israel worsened in some degree. So I dont expect problems from Turkey side.

 

[the road runner]

After evaluating German Leopard 1A5, Ukranian T-84, French AMX-30B2, Cyprus has announced that it will purchase 41 Russian T-90A, to completement the 41 T-80U/UK already in service. Given that it also need to replace it's EE-9 APCs, and that the last tank purchase (the T-80s) was done in tandem with a BMP-3 purchase we may see that follow it up shortly. So far an interest in Tor M2 systems, and Kornet ATGMs has been stated by the Cypriot government.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=64938&cid=25

I'm not big on Greko-Turkish relations. How will this affect them?

I think you will find that Cyprus is the longest running land despute anywhere in the world at the moment.(longer than Israel and Palestine)Greece did not put there S300 Air defence system into Cyprus as it new it would cause problems in Turkey.I know that Cyprus is and has been trying to for over 60 years come to a peacefull resolution over Cyprus.Beieng an Island nation i do not think having tanks/APC will be seen as a threat in the region.You will find that Greeks and Turkish governments try not to use Cyprus as a barganing chip as they do know it can escalate quiet quickley.Both governments know that Dialogue is the only way forward.That is why alot of people cannot believe that Cyprus is the longest disputed piece of land in the world.Hope fully a peacefull resolution will sole this long standing issue.

 

[nikola_281]

Weren't those S-300's bought initially by Cyprus and then transferred to the Greek Armed Forces?

I'm sorry for this small OT

 

[the road runner]

Weren't those S-300's bought initially by Cyprus and then transferred to the Greek Armed Forces?

I'm sorry for this small OT

Yes you are correct,i was wrong in saying that "Greeks put the system in Cyprus",I should have said,"Greeks took the system from Cyprus,to defuse the situation between Cyprus ,Turkey and Greece",i was trying to show that even tho Cyprus is a Commonwealth country,its basic Language is Greek,and traces its histroy from the Greeks.
Cyprus(Greek/cypriots) Government is seen by most countries as the Rightful owner of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriots(who have established there own government on Cyprus)are not seen by most world countries as having any creditable hold/right on the island of Cyprus.

 

[nikola_281]

The situation of Cyprus is quite complicated unfortunately. Will it be resolved any time soon - I don't have a clue. As for the historical part we could speak for days. Anyway, they have been connected (and were buying) several times with the Russian equipment lately (Greek Cypriots of course).

Back to the topic:
Anybody has news on the possible sale of the T-90 to Saudi Arabia?

Edit: I know it's not something new but just asking if there has been any follow up on the info for possible sale to SA.

 

[extern]

Back to the topic:
Anybody has news on the possible sale of the T-90 to Saudi Arabia?

Edit: I know it's not something new but just asking if there has been any follow up on the info for possible sale to SA.

I predicted from the start that SA tries to play a game with Russia by showing interest for Ru-equipment. THey asked political conditions for their eventual buying, end of Russian help to Iran etc. Now after Iran most probably would have S300, the talks about selling T-90 to SA were naturally stopped. Personally, I'm against selling even a rifle for Wahhabi state, too risky. More probably some T-90s or secon hand T-72s will see Lebanon shore.

 

[Feanor]

No news on SA sale. I suspect it won't happen. They would hardly work well with their current fleet mix. Not to mention oil prices are dropping. Badly.

 

[wimpymouse]

After evaluating German Leopard 1A5, Ukranian T-84, French AMX-30B2, Cyprus has announced that it will purchase 41 Russian T-90A, to completement the 41 T-80U/UK already in service. Given that it also need to replace it's EE-9 APCs, and that the last tank purchase (the T-80s) was done in tandem with a BMP-3 purchase we may see that follow it up shortly. So far an interest in Tor M2 systems, and Kornet ATGMs has been stated by the Cypriot government.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=64938&cid=25

I'm not big on Greko-Turkish relations. How will this affect them?

During this past year (I belive it was) Cyprus signed some sort of defence pact (in lack for a better word) with France. More specificly about France being able to use the Cypriot AFB and port/s. Turkey (or was it only the Turkish part of Cyprus?) complained but was told of by the PM that "Cyprus is a sovereign state and does what it pleases" (or something similar).

 

[dragonfire]

Since this is T-90 thread

India is going to have a "Face-Off" btw the Indian DRDO developed Arjun MBT and the T-90 'Bhishma' Tanks this year. The tanks will take on each other in the summer month of June

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/land...dian_army.html

Though i doubt the T-90 will get beat beacuse the Indian Army has traditionaly preferred it over the indegiously developed Arjun's. However the face off is bound to be interesting entertaining

 

[luca28]

Russian tanks to plough the Saudi sands

Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com

Saudi Arabia to buy Russian tanks and helicopters in $2 billion weapons deal

05:40 GMT, September 1, 2009 defpro.com | Saudi Arabia is close to buy Russian arms and military equipment worth some $2 billion (€1.4 billion), a Russian defence industry source was quoted by Interfax on Saturday. The news agency reported that the unnamed source said that “work is nearly completed on a set of contracts on the delivery of Russian arms and military technology to Saudi Arabia.”

The major weapon deal with Rosoboronexport State Corporation, Russia's state-owned arms export monopoly, may include up to 30 Mi-35 attack helicopters and up to 120 Mi-171B, the export version of the Mi-17 Hip multi-purpose helicopter, which is in service in some 80 countries. As defpro.com already reported earlier this month, Russia concluded talks with Saudi Arabia on the helicopter contract (see: defence.professionals | defpro.com).


Russian tracked vehicles and tanks on Saudi Arabia’s shopping list

Beside the helicopters, the deal also compromises some 150 T-90S main battle tanks (MBTs) and around 250 BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs). Furthermore, several sets of Russian state-of-the-art S-400 Triumf air defence systems are part of the multi-billion contract.

The advanced S-400 Triumf (SA-21 Growler) allegedly has no equivalent in the West, and is said to have outflanked the US MIM-104 Patriot. The system is designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at distances of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles), twice the range of the Patriot. Defence experts believe that the system may be able to encounter cruise missiles and ballistic missiles as well as most stealth aircraft. The Interfax source said that Saudi Arabia is interested in “several dozen” S-400 systems, each including at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command post. Besides Saudi Arabia also Turkey, Egypt and Iran have shown strong interest in the Russian air defence system.

With this deal, the Russian Federation’s T-90 – including India’s licenced T-90S production programme – should be the most successful tank in terms of new selling numbers showing once again that the days of US and European domination over new production are long gone in the international market for main battle tanks.

The BMP-3, nicknamed “Troyka” and one of the most heavily armed infantry fighting vehicles in service, is already an old model, having been first built in 1987. However, it found its way back in the market as several nations are looking again at heavier armour and protection as well as more effective state-of-the-art weapon systems. A dozen countries have already integrated this vehicle into their armed forces, among them Saudi Arabia’s neighbours Kuwait as well as the United Arab Emirates. Greece is also preparing a possible purchase of 420 of these tracked fighting vehicles.

According to Interfax, Riyadh may sign contracts for the tanks and helicopters as early as this year. In a number of the contracts which are part of this major deal, both sides have already agreed on the key technical and financial details while other contracts are still being negotiated, according to the quoted source.


Saudi Arabia taking the lead in Middle East defence spending

Riyadh traditionally bought exclusively Western, mainly US-made, military equipment. However, in 2008 Saudi Arabia and Russia signed a “framework agreement for military cooperation” that opened the way for Saudi Arabia to buy Russian arms. In July 2008, as Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal visited Moscow, a Russian newspaper reported that several deals, including the procurement of military equipment, has been discussed with a total worth of some $4 billion. Finally, this year Saudi King Abdullah received a delegation that included a top Kremlin advisor and an official from Rosoboronexport.

The new orientation of Riyadh towards a new principal weapons supplier may result from difficulties which the Arab countries experienced in recent attempts to buy military equipment from the West since 11 September 2001.

Saudi Arabia's defence budget currently exceeds $33 billion and is expected to reach $44 billion in 2010. In a recently published report Frost & Sullivan predicts that defence expenditures in the Middle East will cross the $100 billion mark in the coming five years. The fear that Iran’s nuclear programme may destabilise the entire region is suggested as one of the key reasons for the recent push on the Arabian Peninsula.

The bulk of spending in the region is to come from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates and Israel. In terms of spending, Saudi Arabia is taking the lead in the region with Israel in second place, the latter being expected to disburse some $13 billion by the end of 2009, according to the report.

Link: defence.professionals | defpro.com

 

[Waylander]

After all the reports in the past I believe it when I see it...

Nevertheless it will defenitely be interesting for them to train against each other with all the different vehicles.

 

[eckherl]

After all the reports in the past I believe it when I see it...

Nevertheless it will defenitely be interesting for them to train against each other with all the different vehicles.

Yep, the only thing so far that looks like it is a done deal would be the MI-17 agreement. I think that maybe France is still trying to secure a deal due to the fact that they have not said anything about the Russian factor, but who knows arms deals can swing either way these days.

 

[PREDATOR]

Tanks are pretty obsolete in modern war theater, however if to take just tank-to-tank battle any tank in the world will have hard time defeating T90 (if all tanks are operated by skilled crew).

 

[Waylander]

And you come to this conclusion because of what?
Especially the idea that tanks are obsolete is interesting.

 

[PREDATOR]

And you come to this conclusion because of what?

Because of tactical/technical parameters. Take M1A1 and T90 for example...T90 has more caliber of primary gun, also capable of firing with ATGM, 20tons less (much more maneurable), active/electronic armour defense... isnt it enough? ok....diesel engine...which performs better in dusty environment, less crew and reloading mechanizm...you stil want to compare them?

Especially the idea that tanks are obsolete is interesting.

Yes it is very interesting, because there wont be such a tank wars again like "Kurskaya Duga", because the role of tanks these days is less than it was 60 years ago... you as a defense professional/analyst can easily observe it.

 

[Waylander]

Because of tactical/technical parameters. Take M1A1 and T90 for example...T90 has more caliber of primary gun, also capable of firing with ATGM, 20tons less (much more maneurable), active/electronic armour defense... isnt it enough? ok....diesel engine...which performs better in dusty environment, less crew and reloading mechanizm...you stil want to compare them?

That the T-90 features a 125mm compared to the 120mm used in many countries says zero tells you nothing about penetration values. Gun specs and ammunition are what makes a gun a good performer. Not some mm more or less. And in this regard the 2A46M has no advantages over the L/44 not to talk about the L/55 or comparable 120mm guns.
The ATGMs are a nice feature but have a very limited role. You know what they are carried for?
The heavy use of ERA does not mean that it is any better protected than tanks with other armor concepts. Especially not against KE penetrators.
While being lighter a T-90 is not more mobile than an Abrams. Mobility doesn't come from weight alone. Better to say the actual weight has alot less impact on offroad mobility than you might think.
The US managed to field the Abrams in desert environments for decades without a heavy impact on it's performance...
If you would have ever served on a tank you also wouldn't be so fast with the assumption that less crew + an autoloader is such an advantage. There are also several disadvantages with this.

It may sound hard but I think you are just throwing in some things you have read without really reflecting the actual situation and without doing even some basic research.

Yes it is very interesting, because there wont be such a tank wars again like "Kurskaya Duga", because the role of tanks these days is less than it was 60 years ago... you as a defense professional/analyst can easily observe it.

No I can't.
Right now there still isn't anything in the inventory of the armed forces all around the world which matches the combination of mobility, protection and firepower a MBT brings with it.
The death of the tank has been announced since decades but so far they showed their worth in numerous conflicts without any alternative coming up so far.
But as you are so sure of it you should have nor problem with coming up with a sufficient replacement for modern MBTs.
And while other systems went on the MBT development hasn't stopped.
For example the integration of modern electronics and datalink systems as well as the ongoing development of active and passive protection system is going to make sure that MBTs stay valuable for a long time to come.

 

[PREDATOR]

The US managed to field the Abrams in desert environments for decades without a heavy impact on it's performance...

"without a heavy impact" said probably in a pretty soft form.

Better to say the actual weight has alot less impact on offroad mobility than you might think.

that is absolutely not true...sorry

If you would have ever served on a tank you also wouldn't be so fast with the assumption that less crew + an autoloader is such an advantage. There are also several disadvantages with this.

i had a friend, working in my department, who was a tank squadron commander during a local conflict between another country in Azerbaijan. On his score, one destroyed T72 (oeprated by russian crew), Support truck, and field gun. He also used to operate T55, and has imagination of what is what. So i think his opinion for me is more important. Opinion of a man whos life once depended on a tank and his abilities, and of cuz a combat situation. (however T55 is not Abrams...but right now we are talking about autoloader or crew issue) What about disadvantages? Dont say please that autoloader can get malfunction.... cuz everything can...

It may sound hard but I think you are just throwing in some things you have read without really reflecting the actual situation and without doing even some basic research.

No, i just said some facts...but u said anything to make them wrong, rather than to actually admit some of the real advantages of T90.

p.s.... when i see talks about tanks i see a lot of comparisons for Iraq... for example, some people begin immediately talking about how Abrams did kill T72 in Iraq from 5km (i even once heard from someone that Abrams destroyed two T72 with one shot [probably those T72s were made of plastic]). So... please., take in notice that Iraqi tank crew was actually a bad tank crew, and they were absolutely not a good tank operators at all. And another thing is, Iraq did not have high tech military systems to defend its tank eschelons from aviation and other threats. So, when talking about tanks its not a good idea to use Iraq war as example.