SAS training Afghan troops Ruled out

[steve33]

I believe it would be a bad idea to put our SAS with poorly trained Afgan troops and put the SAS at huge risk.

They are trained to be stealthy and would lose that having lower quality troops around them.

One thing that springs to mind was a doco about the Green Berets that i watched on sky and they were on a mission with some afgans,they were listening to the Taliban on the radio and the Taliban knew they were somewhere in the area but didn,t know where it was dark when the Afgans in the convoy turned on there headlights and lit up the convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED that they had close by killing two green Berets.

 

[StevoJH]

I believe it would be a bad idea to put our SAS with poorly trained Afgan troops and put the SAS at huge risk.

They are trained to be stealthy and would lose that having lower quality troops around them.

One thing that springs to mind was a doco about the Green Berets that i watched on sky and they were on a mission with some afgans,they were listening to the Taliban on the radio and the Taliban knew they were somewhere in the area but didn,t know where it was dark when the Afgans in the convoy turned on there headlights and lit up the convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED that they had close by killing two green Berets.

That is the job of the US Army Special Forces though (Green Berets). Their reason for existing, the job they were created to do, is going into another country and training local troops. The SAS, whether British, Australian or New Zealander have a primary role of Recon, Counter-Terrorism and insertion behind enemy lines etc. Training local troops is not one of their main specialities.

And if it is, then the SASR can come back to Australia and work on forming up the second training battalion that the Army needs to keep up with the current recruits.

 

[p.l.rue]

That is the job of the US Army Special Forces though (Green Berets). Their reason for existing, the job they were created to do, is going into another country and training local troops. The SAS, whether British, Australian or New Zealander have a primary role of Recon, Counter-Terrorism and insertion behind enemy lines etc. Training local troops is not one of their main specialities.

And if it is, then the SASR can come back to Australia and work on forming up the second training battalion that the Army needs to keep up with the current recruits.

I keep banging on about the Afgans can teach us a thing or two. Essentially the issues are intelligence driven,unfortunately theres not a lot of it about in theatre. They could be taught barrack room soldierin but this would not help with the tactical requirements on the ground. ANZAC SAS has always operated to fill the needs of its own national security, would it be willing to train a defence force a percentage who will definately be Taliban infiltrators
who will pass back info if they are deeply buried or rejoin forces to inform of training intelligence. Not a good idea.
There are in excess of thirty clans/tribes (Karzai heads but one by agreement) Language (Baloch and Pashtoon) with other tongues and dialects. Arabic with a heavy palastinian patoise is treated with suspision. Farsie in the border ares with Iran is also spoken. Divisions can also be religious. South of Afganistan is Baluchistan which eats into Iran and pakistan its not on the map, but they just treat every body with suspicion. Their claim to fame is probably like the Irish in the UK and the USofA they built the UAE. They are of extra ordinary physic being over 6ft tall hazel/grey eyes and tough as nails they always smell as though they ve been in a forest fire. There is no easy solution to the issues brought up, except in the tradition of the gulf to do a deal and make an offer the Taliban can't refuse and deal them in, battling these guys is not the way to solve the issues. Rayna hit the nail on the head unwittingly if u can solve the issues of the women folk u will have a nation state this might happen in the next thousand years. The US green beanies solved local issues in Vietnam with their A and B teams but an innoculation program with the infants stopped them dead when the VC chopped off the infants arms this has also happened in Afganistan. The whole location from Israel to India is one Armagedon waiting to happen to have had an insane Tex red neck like Bush as president beggars belief. Roll on death demobs to far away.

 

[dave_kiwi]

Every one relax - SAS off to the 'Ghan to do what they do, oh so well

From NZ Herald:

SAS heading back to Afghanistan

Special Air Service troops will again be sent to Afghanistan, Prime Minister John Key announced today.

SAS heading back to Afghanistan - National - NZ Herald News.

Not unexpected - but at least Key showed some backbone

 

[KiwiRob]

In the NZ Herald today it said the SAS would go in 3 rotations over 18 months, 70 troops per rotation, how many troopers are in the NZ SAS?

 

[Rayna]

New Today from the New Zealand Herald - SAS will face stronger Taleban - National - NZ Herald News

Cabinet's plans for Afghanistan

Three rotations of 70 Special Air Services troops over 18 months.

Withdraw soldiers in the Provincial Reconstruction Team over the next three to five years.

Send more aid and civilian experts to work in policing, agriculture, health and education.

Appoint a "development adviser" to the Provincial Reconstruction Team to oversee change.

Name a senior diplomat as ambassador to Afghanistan and base him or her there rather than in Tehran as at present.



Much better idea than the idea of the SAS training up the Afghan army and everyone is correct when they say it will be counter productive and put them in danger. It isn't what they are trained to do but so far this looks good.

 

[Rayna]

Sorry guys, i didn't see that those guys posted similar links as well....
I never got any notification of any replies.... Strange.

 

[p.l.rue]

Sorry guys, i didn't see that guy guys posted the links as well....
I never got any notification of any replies.... Strange.

For all purposes prejudicial to safety and interests of the state. You will never know, even the government will never certain of disposition for security reasons. Other less friendlies will be reading this lot.

 

[Rayna]

For all purposes prejudicial to safety and interests of the state. You will never know, even the government will never certain of disposition for security reasons. Other less friendlies will be reading this lot.

Was that a reply to my comment about the article?

 

[p.l.rue]

Was that a reply to my comment about the article?

Nah kiwi rob PLR

 

[Rayna]

Tonight

I have never been that fond of the journalism on our "60 Minutes" programme but tonight they have an piece on the SAS in Afghanistan. Might be worth recording/watching.

 

[anan]

Just saw this forum and thread. Any thoughts here on the ANAAC?:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/afghan-national-army-air-corps-8808-2/
The ANAAC needs foreign trainers aside from the US, Brits, Indians and Czechs that are helping right now. China, South Korea, Singapore, and Japan are possible candidates. India could also boost its existing advising presence.

Broader question of Afghanistan:
The international community has three missions:
-help the ANSF improve security in the short run
-increase Afghan capacity (ANSF, civilian GIRoA institutions, other Afghan institutions) over the medium term
-facilitate economic development over the long run so that the Afghans can afford to pay for their increased capacity (current GIRoA revenues of $600 million are one tenth of GIRoA steady state expenditure of $6,000 million.)

It is far cheaper in international blood and treasure to increase ANSF capacity than to fight for them. This, therefore is the primary medium term mission of ISAF. This is why SAS and other special forces need to assigned the mission of training ANSF special force commandos.

My view is that the most of ISAF needs to convert to an SFA (Special Force Augmentation) type (with some variations) model. Currently 4th Bde, 82nd Airborne is deploying in Afghanistan as an SFA.

I would super embed one ISAF advisory brigade HQs in every ANA Corps and Division HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory battalions in each ANA bde HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory companies in every ANA battalion. Similarly super emded with the ANP. Transition all battlespace in Afghanistan to the ANSF. Transition all reconstruction and PRTs to the ANA. Fight the war through them.

 

[steve33]

Just saw this forum and thread. Any thoughts here on the ANAAC?:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/afghan-national-army-air-corps-8808-2/
The ANAAC needs foreign trainers aside from the US, Brits, Indians and Czechs that are helping right now. China, South Korea, Singapore, and Japan are possible candidates. India could also boost its existing advising presence.

Broader question of Afghanistan:
The international community has three missions:
-help the ANSF improve security in the short run
-increase Afghan capacity (ANSF, civilian GIRoA institutions, other Afghan institutions) over the medium term
-facilitate economic development over the long run so that the Afghans can afford to pay for their increased capacity (current GIRoA revenues of $600 million are one tenth of GIRoA steady state expenditure of $6,000 million.)

It is far cheaper in international blood and treasure to increase ANSF capacity than to fight for them. This, therefore is the primary medium term mission of ISAF. This is why SAS and other special forces need to assigned the mission of training ANSF special force commandos.

My view is that the most of ISAF needs to convert to an SFA (Special Force Augmentation) type (with some variations) model. Currently 4th Bde, 82nd Airborne is deploying in Afghanistan as an SFA.

I would super embed one ISAF advisory brigade HQs in every ANA Corps and Division HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory battalions in each ANA bde HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory companies in every ANA battalion. Similarly super emded with the ANP. Transition all battlespace in Afghanistan to the ANSF. Transition all reconstruction and PRTs to the ANA. Fight the war through them.

Training Afgan commandos is one thing going on missions witht them is something else,i commented earlier in a post about the U.S Green Berets on a mission with Afgans and they were out at night and these afgan morons turned the lights on in there Hilux and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED killing two Green Beret.

There is no way our SAS should be put in that position.

 

[Rayna]

Training Afgan commandos is one thing going on missions witht them is something else,i commented earlier in a post about the U.S Green Berets on a mission with Afgans and they were out at night and these afgan morons turned the lights on in there Hilux and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED killing two Green Beret.

There is no way our SAS should be put in that position.

Agreed, they aren't the most organized and skilled. I do agree that they need to be trained. But the SAS is not trained to train foreign military's I mentioned before that it would be counter productive from what they are supposed to do. This is why trainers should be sent there, people who do train the military. Wither is a few from NZ, Australasia or the United States. Keep the SAS doing what they are doing and what they were trained to do. Not train the troops or go out on missions with them, that would just get them killed.

 

[anan]

Rayna, I disagree. SAS shouldn't mentor traditional ANA, but they should mentor ANA special force commandos. Look at what an amazing success US SOCOM had in training and mentoring the Iraqi Special Operations Forces. The same can be achieved with Afghans.

 

[Rayna]

Rayna, I disagree. SAS shouldn't mentor traditional ANA, but they should mentor ANA special force commandos. Look at what an amazing success US SOCOM had in training and mentoring the Iraqi Special Operations Forces. The same can be achieved with Afghans.

Perhaps your right, perhaps it would help but here we go "70 of the elite troops would be deployed for up to 18 months, in three rotations." That's how many are going back that's how many we can supply. We are a small country although we have is of good quality its still very small. We don't have much to offer in the way of quantity.

Would we be able to spare them for mentoring roles? Perhaps that is why we should send up instructors/tutors/trainers to do what they do best?

This goes back to the question though which didn't really clearly state in my first post. Who are we really training? I understand that training them is essential, I mean we cannot do it ourselves but What happens if we put in all this effort for training their troops only for someone with who would undo all that's done and worse? Nothing has been set in stone now but still its something to consider.

 

[p.l.rue]

Perhaps your right, perhaps it would help but here we go "70 of the elite troops would be deployed for up to 18 months, in three rotations." That's how many are going back that's how many we can supply. We are a small country although we have is of good quality its still very small. We don't have much to offer in the way of quantity.

Would we be able to spare them for mentoring roles? Perhaps that is why we should send up instructors/tutors/trainers to do what they do best?

This goes back to the question though which didn't really clearly state in my first post. Who are we really training? I understand that training them is essential, I mean we cannot do it ourselves but What happens if we put in all this effort for training their troops only for someone with who would undo all that's done and worse? Nothing has been set in stone now but still its something to consider
Firstly there is no comparison between Arabic speaking Iraq and Afganistan.Iraq has its own problems with the divisions created by the British mandate that drew borders without consideration of its inhabitants. Three cultural areas are involved and each would n't take a leak on the other if they were on fire. Saddam did his best to exterminate the northern and southern inhabitants. Once the cultural devide iwas bridged Iraq was in terms relatively easy to rebuild its army. The mistake there was to disolve the army in the first place, but having learned the hard way our American brothers have re-installed the old hands. There are other issues as dollars do strange things to people.
Afganistan is another ball game and they dont want to play ball. For NATO troops altitude is a real problem the other is language how do you instruct? The best idea is we all go home the Soviets gave it their best shot the UK lost an army out there a couple of hundred years ago and we are about to go to the wall with NATO. All the effort and loss of life allowed a miniscule part of the population to vote. What are we trying to do and whats the end game, another stack of dead bodies.
Pierre La Rue.

 

[riksavage]

Less of an issue for NZ, but if NATO fails in A-Stan due to a lack of resolve by selected members the organisation is dead in the water, it will lose all credibility. There is so much more at stake than dealing with a localised insurgency at the micro level. It's also far to simplistic an argument to compare Britain and Russia's experience to that of NATO's, all three had very different strategic objectives.

 

[p.l.rue]

Less of an issue for NZ, but if NATO fails in A-Stan due to a lack of resolve by selected members the organisation is dead in the water, it will lose all credibility. There is so much more at stake than dealing with a localised insurgency at the micro level. It's also far to simplistic an argument to compare Britain and Russia's experience to that of NATO's, all three had very different strategic objectives Please inform me so I can pass on the message to co sphere NATO. At a personal level only Xe has a clue. Pierre.

 

[Rayna]

Pierre - be careful with your quoting, you seem to chop half it off and its hard to determine where the quoted post ends and where your one starts..
Its asy if you want to only quote a select amount. Highlight and select that text but dont remove the [/quote] stuff unless you are removing everything...

And on an off topic question, is it me or has this forum lost its Skin?