Singaporean Leopard 2A4s debut in Australia

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just my 2 cents, as a former conscript... :)

If this was the scenario, then I would say the light infantry brigade's staff officers would have failed at the planning level by failing to ask for an attachment of divisional armour or anti-armour assets. In my reckoning, our light infantry brigade would NOT have enough organic anti-armour elements (in our case, we use the Spike anti-tank missile) to be more than a speed bump (against an armored battalion of 56 tanks) - poor relative combat power in anti-tank elements even in complex terrain. To put it simply, the collection plan at brigade level would have failed.

I agree that all a light force is going to do against a modern heavy force structure is fight a delay action. The problem is that light infantry can't run away fast enough (even if we are planning a hit and run), unless we have a fantastic obstacle plan at successive delay lines coupled with solid air and artillery support, in pre-planned kill boxes and in complex terrain (not favouring tanks).

BTW, for the exercise, did your tank battalion have it's own engineer element (please indulge my rather noob question)?

IMO, if a light infantry brigade is going to face a tank battalion, we need to plan to make it an urban warfare fight, to stand a chance of holding ground.
Yes, we hit them with the same level of TO&E that we would in a actual battle scenario, each armored battalion has a company of combat engineers assigned to it. And I agree the success of a light unit fighting a delay type skirmish will most definately depend on the amount of assetts placed at their disposal with terrian dictating also. They will inflict some pain but after the element of surprise is lost all hell will break lose.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@Eckherl
I remember that and I defenitely was on your side.
IMHO that is something that the "hail to the new light forces" crowd doesn't understand.
Nobody who wants to retain some heavy units wants to get back to a full cold war setting which is oriented to fighting in the Fulda Gap.
But getting to an all light and medium force structure just for the sake of some (IMHO overrated) deployment and low-lever conflict advantages is also favouring an unbalanced force structure with all the disadvantages that come with it.

@OPSSG
At least in Germany we get combat engineer support attached from company level upwards.
IIRC it is not different with the US Army.


In the end it all depends on the country and there are many countries out there (like Singapore) who should benefit from a force structure balanced to the light side with lots of support assets.
But it is hard to find a country where it is a good idea to rely solely on light forces in the face of a possible threat.
Yep, you and I both have been hitting on the same note.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
SGMilitary, I'm not aware of the M60A3 being in Singapore's inventory. Is that actually true?
All I know is that you have the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle which is based on the M60, but not a real tank. If you're up against light infantry, the M728 of course can be used like a tank in the infantry support role to a certain degree.
David,

I thought that they had the M-60A1.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If so, then it must be out of service since many years. Prior to the Leo 2, the only vehicles that resembled a tank were the AMX-13 and the M728 CEV mentioned above. The M728 CEV is based on the M60A1, same goes for the M60 AVLB which Singapore also has, but the M60 main battle tank itself to the best of my knowledge was never part of the Singaporean army.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Prior to the Leo 2, the only vehicles that resembled a tank were the AMX-13 and the M728 CEV mentioned above.
... what about those Centurions/Tempests? Oh, and the AMX-10PAC90 Marine (now in reserve iirc).
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
AFAIK the Singaporean "Centurion Tempest" is a kind of urban legend. Singapore never actually had it, it was just a rumour that came up in the internet some day (or maybe earlier) and than spread. There is no single photo of it, or any official document I've seen so far confirming it's existence, or any unit in the Singaporean ORBAT that is said to operate the Centurion, and Singapore is far too small to hide a battalion of main battle tanks, and finally there is no sensible reason why they should keep them in secret anyway. So, while I'm not an all-out expert in regards to Singapore's army, I am pretty sure that the "Centurion Tempest" does not actually exist.

Okay, I forgot about the PAC90 :D But to excuse myself: it's only a fire-support-vehicle on an IFV hull, and thus even less a tank than the AMX-13 (which is at least a light tank) and the M728 (which is at least based on a real tank) :D
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
AFAIK the Singaporean "Centurion Tempest" is a kind of urban legend. Singapore never actually had it, it was just a rumour that came up in the internet some day (or maybe earlier) and than spread. There is no single photo of it, or any official document I've seen so far confirming it's existence, or any unit in the Singaporean ORBAT that is said to operate the Centurion, and Singapore is far too small to hide a battalion of main battle tanks, and finally there is no sensible reason why they should keep them in secret anyway. So, while I'm not an all-out expert in regards to Singapore's army, I am pretty sure that the "Centurion Tempest" does not actually exist.

Okay, I forgot about the PAC90 :D But to excuse myself: it's only a fire-support-vehicle on an IFV hull, and thus even less a tank than the AMX-13 (which is at least a light tank) and the M728 (which is at least based on a real tank) :D
If you don't mind, David, I disagree with the bit of your post highlighted in bold. I cite Tim Huxley's book "Defending the Lion City" (published in 2000) as a response.

BTW, I will neither confirm nor deny the existence of MBTs in the SAF's orbat prior to the purchase of Leo 2A4s (the announcement occurred after Malaysia announced their own MBT purchase with the PT-91M in 2003). However, I note that:

(1) Tim Huxley (at page 131), said:

"...in 1975, the SAF purchased 63 Centurion MBTs from India and a second batch from Israel in 1993-94 bringing the total to at least 80... [and] are known as Tempests... Apparently for fear of provoking controversy with Singapore's neigbours, Mindef has never admitted that the SAF operates MBTs."​

(2) David, going by your reasoning:

(i) Why would Singapore need to operate the M728 CEV and the M60 AVLB, if all of Singapore's all armoured forces was only comprised of light tanks, APCs or IFVs? (Especially since we also operate the Bionix AVLB and the Bionix recovery vehicle for quite a number of years now)

(ii) What official regional armour thread did Malaysia face that necessitated their purchase of the PT-91M? Especially if it is ONLY an urban legend.​

(3) I note that Tim Huxley's book was also used in 2003 (coinciding with the period in which Tun (Dr) Mahathir bin Mohamad was due to step down as PM of Malaysia) by Malaysian tabloids to propose the notion that the SAF is planning to lay waste to Malaysia's Army and infrastructure in the event of war, wherein they set out a fictional scenario where "Johoreans find themselves under Singapore military rule". In fact, the fictional scenario set out by the Tabloid Malay Mail hurt Singapore-Malaysia relations in 2003 (to which I have previously provided my response). This scare mongering ensures that no Malaysian politician can come to a new water agreement with Singapore. The Singapore threat was meant to be a scare as well as a slogan to unite UMNO. Even prior to 2003, there were a number of prominent incidents in 1991 and in 1998. Going further back to 1986, I can remember the hysterical reaction in Malaysia (with vehement protests erupting in Malaysia and the temporary withdrawal of the Malaysian high commissioner) over the visit of Israeli president Chaim Herzog to Singapore. All these incidents occurred during Tun (Dr) Mahathir's tenure as PM. Please note that even today, Tun (Dr) Mahathir on his blog continues to stroke anti-Singapore sentiments in Malaysia as it suits his current political purpose.

(NB: Why would Singapore want to invade Malaysia, under the fictional scenario proposed? What would we have to gain to pick a fight with a bigger immediate neighbour? I certainly can't understand the basis for the fictional scenario proposed by the Tabloid Malay Mail, unless casus belli was provided by Malaysia.)​
 
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DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi OPSSG, thanks for the answer.
While I didn't know that the rumour was spread by Huxley, I still have my doubts about the truth of it. The reason why Singapore operates the M60 support vehicles has confused me once as well, but there are several other possible explanations, from cheap availability to preparedness for future assets. If Singapore actually operated the Centurion secretly, than in which way did they keep their crews in training? Regular exercises on the army's tank training ranges seem impossible if you want to keep a secret (in a very small nation like Singapore), and a tank without a properly trained crew is useless, as the Singaporean leadership surely knows. Does Huxley provide a source?

Why did Malaysia purchase the PT-91M, I don't know, maybe they read Huxley's book :D
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
David, I'm subject to Singapore laws and as such, can neither confirm nor deny the existence of anything not declassified by Mindef.

Hi OPSSG, thanks for the answer.
While I didn't know that the rumour was spread by Huxley...
I don't think the 'rumour' was started by him. I just find it convenient to cite Dr. Huxley as a source, as he is sufficiently respectable.

...The reason why Singapore operates the M60 support vehicles has confused me once as well, but there are several other possible explanations, from cheap availability to preparedness for future assets.
Yes, using only logic, that is a possible explanation.

If Singapore actually operated the Centurion secretly, than in which way did they keep their crews in training? Regular exercises on the army's tank training ranges seem impossible if you want to keep a secret (in a very small nation like Singapore), and a tank without a properly trained crew is useless, as the Singaporean leadership surely knows.
I have family members who are armour trained. As such, I can confirm that the SAF does not only conduct armour training in Singapore and that our crew are properly trained in the 'platforms' we operate (which is also a term used in official interviews with armour officers).

Please note that I cannot elabourate further on the foreign armour training locations, as there maybe unintended other diplomatic consequences for such clarity (beyond Singapore-Malaysia relations).

Does Huxley provide a source?
Yes (partially) and he provides more movement details than what I quoted.

Why did Malaysia purchase the PT-91M, I don't know, maybe they read Huxley's book :D
No. They have their own intelligence assessment and we know that they know. :)
 
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DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Okay, let's agree that Singapore may or may not have the Centurion and that noone will confirm or deny this fact :D

No. They have their own intelligence assessment and we know that they know. :)
That was just a joke :) I know they have their own intelligence and wont rely solely on a book.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Isn't Taiwan the place where Singapore trains a lotof their conscripts as there are several big training areas and live fire ranges?
At least that's what some Taiwanese told me when I worked there for some short time.
I imagine it isn't all that difficult to place a company worth of Centurions there to let the conscripts train on them additionally to some simulators at home (Are there actually simulators available for the centurion?).

In the end one may come up with well trained tankers up to company level but anything beyond that would be difficult.
The higher staff may not have the ability to include them in big exercises which attract public interest and so would have to resort to theoretical staff exercises. Good training too but sometimes the real thing needs to be done to give the staffs abd soldiers a feeling for a big operation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Okay, let's agree that Singapore may or may not have the Centurion and that noone will confirm or deny this fact :D...
The stories I've heard say there have been Singaporean Centurions in Taiwan for many years, for training. I'm not bound by Singapore law (I've never even been there), but can't confirm these rumours because I know no more than the rumours.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Okay, let's agree that Singapore may or may not have the Centurion and that noone will confirm or deny this fact :D



That was just a joke :) I know they have their own intelligence and wont rely solely on a book.
The secret Centurions are still on the books, they are based in Taiwan for training purposes, I confirmed that with other sources besides Janes. But is it possible also that they have M-60A1`s based in Taiwan also for the sake of training, these would be easier to hide the fact, due to Taiwan also operating this vehicle model.
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In the end one may come up with well trained tankers up to company level but anything beyond that would be difficult.
The higher staff may not have the ability to include them in big exercises which attract public interest and so would have to resort to theoretical staff exercises. Good training too but sometimes the real thing needs to be done to give the staffs abd soldiers a feeling for a big operation.
True, but given the heavy armour of the Centurion probably augmented by reactive armour, these tanks could be employed more in the direct inf-tank role (have the tanks attached to infantry units) thus freeing the regular armoured units to be used in the usual fashion. - its a thought anyway. The Aussies found Cents to be very useful in combined ops in Vietnam.
 

Red

New Member
Singapore`s armour equipment is hush hush stuff even within the SAF. In times of conflict, the SAF can deploy modern chariots of war in concert with other equipment.

The old centurians were upgraded a couple of times according to Janes;

Jane's Defence Weekly - Dec-20-06

Go to page 5. I am referring to Janes as my source.
 

Red

New Member
Isn't Taiwan the place where Singapore trains a lotof their conscripts as there are several big training areas and live fire ranges?
At least that's what some Taiwanese told me when I worked there for some short time.
I imagine it isn't all that difficult to place a company worth of Centurions there to let the conscripts train on them additionally to some simulators at home (Are there actually simulators available for the centurion?).

In the end one may come up with well trained tankers up to company level but anything beyond that would be difficult.
The higher staff may not have the ability to include them in big exercises which attract public interest and so would have to resort to theoretical staff exercises. Good training too but sometimes the real thing needs to be done to give the staffs abd soldiers a feeling for a big operation.
Hmmm...Singaporean forces go to quite a number of places for training and experience. I`d reckon they have some of the best mentors in contemporary warfare in the world. I would think that there are certainly designated places in Singapore for maneuvres and training. (For example)Where would all the Bionix IFVs, Broncos and AM-14 Sm1 drivers train otherwise; logically speaking.

.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I have 2 editions of Jane's Tank Recognition Guide that named Singapore as an operator of Centurions.

EDIT: The question on your mind is probably why a 50-yr-old obsolete tank remains a "mystery".

I should just say that whatever happened, happened with reasons - even though the reasons may seem asinine, or fantastic to some of us.

But just because we don't know or understand certain things, don't necessarily make them "urban legends".

Out of fear of arrest, and partly out of some silly old remnant sense of duty, we can't say more.

Singapore like to keep mum about things. E.g....

In our Brigade S2 Br in 1986 there was a airborne ranger qualified regular who said he just failed qualifying for a SOF selection course. I was thinking "sure...yeah...right..." as we didn't officially have SOF at the time.

As it turned out, he was at least truthful in that there WAS an SOF selection in 1986. But Singapore only officially acknowledged having an SOF nearly 10 years later. SOF was formed in 1986 in secret.

Even when SOF successfully ended a plane hijacking in Singapore 1991, SAF at that time gave the credit to Commandos. It was at an award ceremony for these "commandos" during the late 90's that it was officially revealed that they were actually SOF and not commandos.

This is just one illustration of SAF's unofficial "confirm or deny nothing" policy - that we can talk about.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think nobody here denies that many countries out there have their reasons (good reasons) for keeping some things secret.

In my eyes it was merely a discussion about the difficulties one faces if one wants to hide a tank force.
The problems of such a task are much bigger than hiding some SOFs due to the nature of armoured forces.
This is not made easier by a conscript system and the need to train in foreign countries.

I do now believe that they exist but nevertheless it makes for an interesting discussion.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
For some Malaysian politicians (and I believe a minority of their citizens), Singapore bashing is an integral part of their internal domestic political discourse - which we as Singaporeans have no control over.

You can see this type of boorish behaviour by a minority of Malaysians in a number of threads. Even something as harmless as Raymond posting old pictures of his prior military service in the 1980s is subject to a negative comment. Why is there a need for a Malaysian forum member, who claims to be a member of the Malaysian Armed Forces, denigrate the capabilities of the Singapore commando unit, especially since our forces were fighting side by side during the Konfrontasi (1963 to 1966) and we are members in the FPDA?

I think nobody here denies that many countries out there have their reasons (good reasons) for keeping some things secret.
While Singapore diplomats are constrained in their ability to clarify, I on the other hand can speak my mind as a private individual. In fact, BBC as characterized certain incidents as lies perpetuated by Malaysian politicians like Tun Dr Mahathir (Dr M).

One such lie is the 'manufactured dispute' over Pedra Branca island, which coincided to Dr M's rise and consolidation in power. This dispute originated in 1979, when Malaysia published a map claiming Pedra Branca as their territory for the first time, when Singapore and our predecessors, the British, have been in occupation of the light house on for Pedra Branca more than 150 years. The area around Pedra Branca is a navigation hazard and as a port, we administer it (in fact, the ICJ determined that Pedra Branca belongs to Singapore). For Dr M, inciting nationalistic emotions and 'manufacturing a dispute' is a useful way of appearing as a leader.

IMO, Dr M manufactured the territorial dispute as a means to gain or maintain power. So keeping some things 'secret' denies Dr M further talking points. In fact, Dr M has been reported by Malaysians (click on the link to read the shocking attitude) to have said:

"...Don’t you know we are at war with Singapore?”​

Why would a politician characterize Malaysia and Singapore to be at war (given that we are each others' largest trading partners)? I think the Neil Khor writing in Malaysiakini on 29 May 2008, explains the manufactured dispute of Pedra Branca best:

"...There are three ways to maintain power, or rather three ways to convince others to submit to one’s will. The first strategy is to provide them with an alternative that motivates them to submit. The slave would rather toil under the hot sun than suffer the pain of the lash...

Second, provide them with compensation that will buy their submission... Politicians may vote or even cross the floor for such compensatory benefits.

Third, and perhaps most effectively, power can be maintained by conditioning people to think in a particular way. Malays are ‘weak’ and if not adequately protected, they will ‘fall victim’ to their fellow Malaysians. Over time, Malays no longer differentiate between their own legs and the crutches that hold them up.

In my last letter, I mentioned that we are currently witnessing the ‘endgame of the Mahathir myth’. The Mahathir myth is made up of a combination of threats, compensation as well as conditioning. It is all held together in the personality of Dr Mahathir Mohamad..." **

As such, IMO, Dr M tries to condition certain Malaysians that Singapore is an ungrateful 'little red dot'. Therefore, there is a need to 'put Singapore in our place'. Just in case we don't get the message, on 9 August 1991 (on Singapore's 26th National Day), an airborne assault exercise, codenamed Pukul Habis (Malay for 'Total Wipeout') was conducted by Malaysian-Indonesian paratroopers in a drop zone just 18km from Singapore in Johor.

In fact the mere publication of 'Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore (2000)' was used by Tabloid Malay Mail, in 2003, to propose the idea - that the SAF is planning to lay waste to Malaysia's Army and infrastructure in the event of war. As such, it is necessary for the Malays in Malaysia to be united and stand up against 'ungrateful' Singapore.

Question: Would Singapore want to start a war with a country with a population 4 to 5 times bigger than ours? What have we got to gain?

BTW, the Singapore government was so sick of the misrepresentations that they put the relevant documents online in 2003, thereby proving that Dr M and his cronies released distorted statements (read the BBC interview transcript for the lies). He was caught out on his lies. As Singapore's Foreign Minister at that time explained:

"...the Malaysians engaged in a whole barrage of accusations and allegations against Singapore... particularly on the issue of water negotiations. And we were accused of being the unreasonable party. Various other false statements were made, that the water agreements were fixed by the British and a colonial imposition when it was not true.

These were agreements signed by independent Malaya and reaffirmed as guarantees in Separation Agreement... and we were painted as the unreasonable party, when we were in fact trying to accommodate Malaysia at every turn, we had no choice. We had to set out the facts in a persuasive and conclusive manner and the only way to do that was to disclose the documents...

....Our position is that when we have disagreements concerning important treaties and agreements, such as the Water Agreements, the issue really is, observance of agreements... when statements were made that they will pass or enact a domestic law to nullify these Agreements, and we said, that's not the way - that's not in keeping with international law and accepted conventions of settling international disputes..."​

Therefore Dr M hit back, he poisoned the waters via the 2003 Tabloid Malay Mail story, which I note coincided with other ongoing Malaysia - Singapore negotiations that Dr M wanted to scuttle.

Question: Why the lapse of 3 years to raise the issue of a book which mentions the speculated existence of a Singaporean MBT?

In my eyes it was merely a discussion about the difficulties one faces if one wants to hide a tank force.
The problems of such a task are much bigger than hiding some SOFs due to the nature of armoured forces. This is not made easier by a conscript system and the need to train in foreign countries.
Since all our guys are or were conscripts, we know that anything not declassified, should remain that way - which means everyone is in on the same secret. Isn't getting everyone in on the secret a good way to keep the secret? :)

I do now believe that they exist but nevertheless it makes for an interesting discussion.
Yes, as usual it is a pleasure to enter into a discussion with you.

Edit: Once you understand the issues that Singaporeans face, in terms of regional environment, it is easy to understand my support for acquiring new weapon platforms, such as, the Leopard 2A4 and other weapon systems.

-----------------------
** Footnote: There is this myth that Malaysia lost Pedra Branca to Singapore when Malaysia decided to take the case to the ICJ. I say they are WRONG and their view is not informed by a valid understanding of international law. The Malaysian Government cannot unilaterally change their mind in 1979 and try to further sub-divide a portion of Singapore (in this case Pedra Branca) by retrospective action. If they could Singapore would not be a sovereign state.
 
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