The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
I take your inclusion in the JC1 for RN lobby group as red:cool:
:D
That big dock at Rosyth will need something to do between the CVFs being finished & the first refit, & later on, between CVF refits. HMS Fearless, to start with?

IIRC the 300mn Euros quoted is for a very spartan ship, & you have to add quite a bit for a fully fitted ship, but it still seems good value.
 

kev 99

Member
:D
That big dock at Rosyth will need something to do between the CVFs being finished & the first refit, & later on, between CVF refits. HMS Fearless, to start with?

IIRC the 300mn Euros quoted is for a very spartan ship, & you have to add quite a bit for a fully fitted ship, but it still seems good value.
Be a shame to leave it empty for such a long time.

Personally I'd go with Eagle and Hermes, we're never going to get enough proper carriers again to use up all the 'traditional' carrier names.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
:D
That big dock at Rosyth will need something to do between the CVFs being finished & the first refit, & later on, between CVF refits. HMS Fearless, to start with?

IIRC the 300mn Euros quoted is for a very spartan ship, & you have to add quite a bit for a fully fitted ship, but it still seems good value.
Thats all the RN needs and whats is something nice and spartan Ocean isn't lavishily fitted and all I was thinking was that this would be like for like replacement with a few improvements.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Thats all the RN needs and whats is something nice and spartan Ocean isn't lavishily fitted and all I was thinking was that this would be like for like replacement with a few improvements.
Quote: LONDON -- BVT Surface Fleet, the maritime joint venture 55% held by BAE Systems and 45% held by VT Group , said it's signed a 15-year deal with the U.K. Ministry of Defense on warship building. Terms call for exclusivity to BVT to design, build and provide support to shipbuilding programs; a commitment to maintain key industrial capabilities; a guarantee to provide over 350 million pounds of financial benefits to the Ministry of Defense; and have an incentive mechanism for achieving savings and transformation.

Well hopefully this will allow continunity for the yards, following the completion of the Carriers. FSC anyone?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
With such a contract in their hands I wonder how difficult it will be to get reasonable price calculations.

If know what most companies would try to do with such a contract in their hands...
 

riksavage

Banned Member
With such a contract in their hands I wonder how difficult it will be to get reasonable price calculations.

If know what most companies would try to do with such a contract in their hands...
Apparently the money is partly for 18 FSC hulls - C1 & C2. Design will hopefully be exportable. By signing such a long term contract it removes feast then famine problems facilitating long term investment by the shipyards. Makes sense, the BAE aircraft servicing contracts, which are being extended for 10 years and beyond allowing the company to plan ahead and recruit new engineers and apprentices.

I note that the CAMM pre-production active radar seeker for the common missile is nearing completion of flight tests in the UK, the system is progressing and will no doubt be retrofitted to the T23's (replacing Seawolf) before being fitted to the C2 design. One assumes C1 will get ASTOR.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Apparently the money is partly for 18 FSC hulls - C1 & C2. Design will hopefully be exportable. By signing such a long term contract it removes feast then famine problems facilitating long term investment by the shipyards. Makes sense, the BAE aircraft servicing contracts, which are being extended for 10 years and beyond allowing the company to plan ahead and recruit new engineers and apprentices.

I note that the CAMM pre-production active radar seeker for the common missile is nearing completion of flight tests in the UK, the system is progressing and will no doubt be retrofitted to the T23's (replacing Seawolf) before being fitted to the C2 design. One assumes C1 will get ASTOR.
A good program that can go to flight testing without anyone knowing:D. But realy it wasn't that long ago that it was annonced. Im intreged what the Army version will look like
 

Grim901

New Member
Apparently the money is partly for 18 FSC hulls - C1 & C2. Design will hopefully be exportable. By signing such a long term contract it removes feast then famine problems facilitating long term investment by the shipyards. Makes sense, the BAE aircraft servicing contracts, which are being extended for 10 years and beyond allowing the company to plan ahead and recruit new engineers and apprentices.

I note that the CAMM pre-production active radar seeker for the common missile is nearing completion of flight tests in the UK, the system is progressing and will no doubt be retrofitted to the T23's (replacing Seawolf) before being fitted to the C2 design. One assumes C1 will get ASTOR.
I've been asking this elsewhere, but would fitting ASTER actually be feasible for C1. Would it need a more powerful radar on the ship like the T45 radars to be useful? I'm assuming the ASTER 30 definitely couldn't be used (shame since whacking a few in could make up for the lack of T45's).

On a similar note, what is so different about CAMM and ASTER 15 in terms of capabilities? They both seem to have similar ranges/targets. If anything CAMM will just be a little more modern. Either way, if aster 30 can't be fitted, no point in using Aster 15 either, since CAMM can be quadpacked = 4 x more missiles in the same space.

I read somewhere that CAMM is going onto the T23's at their last refit then having their TAS, CAMM, Radar removed and fitted to C1 as necessary.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I've been asking this elsewhere, but would fitting ASTER actually be feasible for C1. Would it need a more powerful radar on the ship like the T45 radars to be useful? I'm assuming the ASTER 30 definitely couldn't be used (shame since whacking a few in could make up for the lack of T45's).

On a similar note, what is so different about CAMM and ASTER 15 in terms of capabilities? They both seem to have similar ranges/targets. If anything CAMM will just be a little more modern. Either way, if aster 30 can't be fitted, no point in using Aster 15 either, since CAMM can be quadpacked = 4 x more missiles in the same space.

I read somewhere that CAMM is going onto the T23's at their last refit then having their TAS, CAMM, Radar removed and fitted to C1 as necessary.
The way forward is commonality, which will bring huge cost savings to the table, CAMM will be both a ship and land based system based on a common missile (based on improved ASRAAM or AASM hardware) currently designed for fixed wing aircraft, replacing both Rapier and Seawolf in the short term. Range could match that of ASTOR 15. The same will happen with the next generation of Naval Gun for C1 & C2, basically a marinised version of the 155mm, allowing ammunition types, such as Excalibur to be fired ship to shore.

CAMM will offer a much cheaper solution than ASTOR 15, simply because of the size of the potential order (land & sea) and use of common technology. Becuase of advances in missile technology, CAMM will provide a leap in capability over Seawolf against UAV, sea skimmers and aircraft when retro-fitted to the T23, it can also utilise existing tracking radar, thus greatly reducing integration costs. Fitting CAMM to the T23, coupled with ongoing upgrades to their AsW capabilities means they will remain excellent ships for some time to come, after all they were designed specifically to run silent during AsW operations.

One interesting area will be the 155mm, development. The current 40mm CTA project for the Warrior enhancement programme is considered to be a leap in technology comparable to the introduction of the rifled barrel. The reduction in working parts, size of round, breach size, logistics tail and punch (equivalent to current 50mm rounds) represents a step change in capability. Because of the success the partnership see no reason why the same concept cannot be applied to 120mm or 155mm. If switching to rail gun technology appears far too expensive, I can see a marinised 155mm CTA round being an option for a Naval gun and/or a120mm version developed for armour.

Now BAE has been given a 15-year contract to supply most of the UK's ammunition, it wouldn't surprise me if they are looking at developing a series of new generation CTA tank / naval guns to leverage off what they have achieved with the French partnership.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
I've not heard that CAMM will have the same range as Aster 15. Where did that come from? A lot more than Seawolf, yes, but more like VL Mica than Aster 15.

Aster 15 should be feasible for C1, but I can see why CAMM might be preferred, especially if it fits in shorter VLS cells (A35 vs A43). Should be cheaper, a lot more missiles can fit in the same space, & the extra range of Aster 15 shouldn't be needed for self-defence.

BTW, ASTOR is an airborne ground surveillance system. The missile is Aster.
 

Grim901

New Member
I've not heard that CAMM will have the same range as Aster 15. Where did that come from? A lot more than Seawolf, yes, but more like VL Mica than Aster 15.

Aster 15 should be feasible for C1, but I can see why CAMM might be preferred, especially if it fits in shorter VLS cells (A35 vs A43). Should be cheaper, a lot more missiles can fit in the same space, & the extra range of Aster 15 shouldn't be needed for self-defence.

BTW, ASTOR is an airborne ground surveillance system. The missile is Aster.
Can you give some figures for the ranges of CAMM and Aster 15 then?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Can you give some figures for the ranges of CAMM and Aster 15 then?
Not precise, but CAMM has been said to be "in excess of 20km", although there's no mention of range on the MBDA site (see below), & the missiles it's due to replace have ranges of less than 10km. MBDA says Aster 15 is "in excess of 30km". Aster 15 is a much bigger & heavier missile overall, including the fat booster. It would be very surprising for it not to have a longer range.
Team Complex Weapons, including CAMM
Press info - Air to air missile, missile by MBDA
Aster
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Not precise, but CAMM has been said to be "in excess of 20km", although there's no mention of range on the MBDA site (see below), & the missiles it's due to replace have ranges of less than 10km. MBDA says Aster 15 is "in excess of 30km". Aster 15 is a much bigger & heavier missile overall, including the fat booster. It would be very surprising for it not to have a longer range.
Team Complex Weapons, including CAMM
Press info - Air to air missile, missile by MBDA
Aster
My mistake CAMM was reported to be in the region of 20-25km range, Aster 15 is 30km. Still a quantum leap over Seawolf and not what I would describe as a point defence weapon?
 

Grim901

New Member
My mistake CAMM was reported to be in the region of 20-25km range, Aster 15 is 30km. Still a quantum leap over Seawolf and not what I would describe as a point defence weapon?
In that case i'd definitely choose CAMM, 4X the missiles more than makes up for that extra 5km range.

I think the current thinking is that it won't be used in place of a CIWS, we'll probably see Phalanx/RAM or similar next gen. systems on board as well.
 

kev 99

Member
I think the current thinking is that it won't be used in place of a CIWS, we'll probably see Phalanx/RAM or similar next gen. systems on board as well.
Well that really depends on the budget doesn't it, T45 was supposed to have Phalanx but ended up as being 'For But Not With'.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
In that case i'd definitely choose CAMM, 4X the missiles more than makes up for that extra 5km range.
It isn't 5 km. It's ">20 km" vs ">30 km". We don't know exactly how much the difference is, but 10 km seems more likely than 5. There's also a difference in ceiling.

Whether that is enough to justify fitting Aster 15 rather than CAMM is debatable*, but I think we should try to be as precise as the available information allows when debating the question.

*We also have to consider cost, weight, volume, etc.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well that really depends on the budget doesn't it, T45 was supposed to have Phalanx but ended up as being 'For But Not With'.
...As has been said many times on this thread, it may be FBNW, but it will ONLY be fitted WHEN it's NEEDED !

The RN KNOWS that this equipment is a quick fit (24hrs max.), they only have a limited amount & they ONLY fit them to vessels that are going into harms way...

The sets they have are spread around both the RN surface fleet & the RFA's

Apart from that, here's an extract of an article from Janes, (dated 16th July 2009)...

York brings upgraded Phalanx on board
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Type 42 Batch 3 destroyer HMS York has become the first UK Royal Navy (RN) warship to receive the updated Phalanx Block 1B close-in weapon system. Sixteen Phalanx Block 1A systems out of the UK's 36-strong inventory are being modified to Block 1B standard by Babcock as part of the RN's wider Defensive Anti-Surface Warfare Upgrade programme [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SA[/FONT]
 
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