The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[kev 99]

Very good videos only they show the carriers in the LPH role as well, I hope it doesn,t mean that no replacements for HMS Ocean will be built.

They were always supposed to be tri-service assets, personally I don't have a problem seeing them decked out with choppers if the situation arose, but I agree the MOD would be stupid not to have a dedicated LPH or LPD, you shouldn't be using a 65,000 ship costing a couple of billion as a LPH as a matter of routine.

 

[outsider]

Somebody on another forum mentioned that after completion of the two carriers that it might be cost effective to build a third CVF to be used as an LPH or spare carrier if needed, rather than produce a new design for an LPH. As the shipyards will already have experience of building the CVF's and so would be able to build a third CVF more cheaply.

I don't know if this is the case, but thought it was an interesting idea.

 

[kev 99]

I think that would really be too costly an option for an LPH, economies of scale can only get you so far.

 

[Sintra]

As to Watchkeeper I'll pass on the indigenous network and the technology thanks and just have the American UAV's which are available now, work and will (I'll be prepared to bet) be cheaper due to those massive production runs that you mention.
.

How can i bet, and how can i collect that bet?
A decent bottle of Port, for a Scotch one?

You are focusing on the "cheap" part of the system (remember you are not buying a car, plane, tank, whatever, you are buying a "system of systems"), a few Predator flying tubes are useless if you dont have the Network to back them up, and that network was designed using already available American assets. Assets that Great Britain doesnt have, and those assets are bloody expensive.
Now, there´s a fine reason why the entire RAF 39 sqn is based at Creech AFB (that´s Indian Springs, NEVADA), that´s were the USAF Predator Community is based, they control the UAV´s fleet through Satelite.
Now, if you transform the small (five units) "add-on" RAF Predator fleet into a "Core capacity", to controll that fleet you have three choices:

1- Buy an entire world wide coverage mill satelite constelation.
If you think that the Eurofighter and the Trident replacement program are "expensive" you dont want to know the kind of budget that the Pentagon spends on space based bandwidth.

2- Rent bandwith.
Make a Government-to-Government contract for a few decades and rent bandwith with the Pentagon. Now, seeing how the American Armed Forces are perpetually bandwidth "thirsty", i can imagine that it wont be "cheap"... OH, and forget the "independent" part, any disagreement with the White House and those Predator became useless.

3- Create from the "ground-up" a theater relay comunications network that´s compatible with whatever His Royal Armed Forces are using (remenber the Radios at operation "Market Garden").
That means ground or aerial stations (E-3/ASTOR) controling the UAV fleet from "hundreds" of miles, instead of "thousands" of miles. This is the cheapest route, and if you choose a "off the shelf" aerial platform/UAV it will be even cheaper, nice idea! Let´s buy some predator´s, contract BAE (or another company) to create the network part, and be done with it...
Easy! Wait, why dont we open an international competition for the UAV part?
Grand idea!
And that was the story of "Watchkeeper", but instead of buying American kit, they´ve went for Israeli hardware.

So, using the "recurrent fly away costs" for American (or Russian, French, South African, Inuit, etc) hardware and then comparing it with the MOD Budget for a complete system, is quite useless. It´s a lot more complicated than that.

Cheers

 

[StevoJH]

It would be interesting to find out if skynet has the bandwidth to be used to relay control signals to UAV's.

 

[swerve]

Somebody on another forum mentioned that after completion of the two carriers that it might be cost effective to build a third CVF to be used as an LPH or spare carrier if needed, rather than produce a new design for an LPH. As the shipyards will already have experience of building the CVF's and so would be able to build a third CVF more cheaply.

I don't know if this is the case, but thought it was an interesting idea.

I can't imagine it would be cost-effective, for many reasons.

Because of their size, the CVFs need expensive new port infrastructure built for them, & we're not building enough for additional ships. Building more would cost a lot. Even a spartan, stripped-down CVF would be far, far more expensive, & need more crew, than a purpose-built LPH. The shape is wrong: a dedicated LPH would have more internal volume in relation to deck area. Compared to a real LPH, the CVF design wastes money & weight on the extra deck & other features optimised for fast jet operations. The size was chosen for efficient fast jet operations. Any calculation of optimum LPH size would doubtless come up with something different.

Enough?

And of course, if an LHD rather than an LPH is wanted, or an LPH with a stern ramp, then the redesign of CVF to fit it in would be very expensive.

No, just buy an OTS LPH/LHD design (e.g. JC1) & modify it for any peculiar UK requirements. Much cheaper.

 

[kev 99]

No, just buy an OTS LPH/LHD design (e.g. JC1) & modify it for any peculiar UK requirements. Much cheaper.

And I would imagine a great deal more useful for the role as well.

 

[Systems Adict]

While I love these videos I wonder how much they are costing?

These 'videos', are in fairness, part of the Alliances marketing tools, & were created by BAE / BVT, on behalf of the RN. (see the link in post #2614...)

That aside, do we really need an LPH ??

Look at these comments....

#1 Albion Class : The two-spot 64m long flight deck supports operation of two medium support helicopters such as the Command Sea King HC.4 and can take Chinook and Harrier aircraft.


#2 LSD(A) : The flight deck is large enough to enable operations by the MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, Chinook helicopter and the planned FRC. The ships have an aviation capability of transporting and operating two medium (EH101 Merlin size) and Chinook helicopters, having power for starting and servicing the aircraft, and the ability to re-fuel the aircraft on deck and in-flight, although the ships will initially have only one fully serviced spot. Sufficient flight deck space exists to simultaneously operate two Merlin's. The ships can carry two of the afore mentioned helicopters as deck cargo


#3 Wave Class: The tankers are capable of supporting the Merlin helicopter and is capable of operating a Merlin-sized helicopter in high seas up to Sea State 6.

#4 Type 45 : The Type 45 destroyer will be able to operate a helicopter up to the size of a Royal Navy Merlin helicopter, but will initially operate with Lynx HMA.8 helicopters armed with Stingray torpedoes.

(Note: Info for #1 & #2 are extracted from Navy Matters | Home Page, #3 & #4 are extracted from Naval Technology)

A UK RN Future Carrier battle group could probably consist of..

x1 Carrier
x2 Type 45 Destroyers
x1 LSD(A)
x1 LPD(R)
x1 Type 23 Frigate (possibly x2)
x1 Wave Class Aux. Oiler
x1 Astute Submarine

With all the surface vessels able to support at least one type of helo, would there really be a need for an LPH ??

I DON'T think so....

SA

 

[StevoJH]

These 'videos', are in fairness, part of the Alliances marketing tools, & were created by BAE / BVT, on behalf of the RN. (see the link in post #2614...)

That aside, do we really need an LPH ??

Look at these comments....

#1 Albion Class : The two-spot 64m long flight deck supports operation of two medium support helicopters such as the Command Sea King HC.4 and can take Chinook and Harrier aircraft.


#2 LSD(A) : The flight deck is large enough to enable operations by the MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, Chinook helicopter and the planned FRC. The ships have an aviation capability of transporting and operating two medium (EH101 Merlin size) and Chinook helicopters, having power for starting and servicing the aircraft, and the ability to re-fuel the aircraft on deck and in-flight, although the ships will initially have only one fully serviced spot. Sufficient flight deck space exists to simultaneously operate two Merlin's. The ships can carry two of the afore mentioned helicopters as deck cargo


#3 Wave Class: The tankers are capable of supporting the Merlin helicopter and is capable of operating a Merlin-sized helicopter in high seas up to Sea State 6.

#4 Type 45 : The Type 45 destroyer will be able to operate a helicopter up to the size of a Royal Navy Merlin helicopter, but will initially operate with Lynx HMA.8 helicopters armed with Stingray torpedoes.

(Note: Info for #1 & #2 are extracted from Navy Matters | Home Page, #3 & #4 are extracted from Naval Technology)

A UK RN Future Carrier battle group could probably consist of..

x1 Carrier
x2 Type 45 Destroyers
x1 LSD(A)
x1 LPD(R)
x1 Type 23 Frigate (possibly x2)
x1 Wave Class Aux. Oiler
x1 Astute Submarine

With all the surface vessels able to support at least one type of helo, would there really be a need for an LPH ??

I DON'T think so....

SA

The LPD doesn't have a hanger (the LSD's have an extendable one) and the replenishment ship requires its helos for Vertrep, with any remaining spots in the hanger being taken up by ASW birds. The CVF needs to carry F35's to deal with enemy air opposition which doesnt leave any room for helicopters or troops.

A single LPD and LSD can carry 661 troops (1210 overload) which is one approx 1-2 RM commandos with supporting elements IIRC. Plus you don't have the helicopters to get them ashore rapidly.

Add in ocean with a dozen Sea King Commandos or Merlins and assuming (as a nice round figure) 24 troops per helicopter that gives you 288 troops ashore per airlift. Personally i hope the RN gets a pair of large LPH or LHD's that combine the troop lift and carrying role of Ocean with the casualty collection of Argus. I also hope they get a rear lift similar to that on JCI which is big enough to store chinooks below decks in the hanger.

 

[battlensign]

The LPD doesn't have a hanger (the LSD's have an extendable one) and the replenishment ship requires its helos for Vertrep, with any remaining spots in the hanger being taken up by ASW birds. The CVF needs to carry F35's to deal with enemy air opposition which doesnt leave any room for helicopters or troops.

A single LPD and LSD can carry 661 troops (1210 overload) which is one approx 1-2 RM commandos with supporting elements IIRC. Plus you don't have the helicopters to get them ashore rapidly.

Add in ocean with a dozen Sea King Commandos or Merlins and assuming (as a nice round figure) 24 troops per helicopter that gives you 288 troops ashore per airlift. Personally i hope the RN gets a pair of large LPH or LHD's that combine the troop lift and carrying role of Ocean with the casualty collection of Argus. I also hope they get a rear lift similar to that on JCI which is big enough to store chinooks below decks in the hanger.

Totally agree.

Sierra Leone would would have been a waste of an available CVF.

Not to mention that there will be significant periods of time where only one carrier is available and the ability to shift Helo Ops to an LPH is incredibly useful. Technically, you could even base MAS&C, ASW and SAR Helo's from the carrier to an LPH if you wanted to do a Falklands style campaign with only one carrier stuffed to the gills with F-35s.

The LPDs and LSDs need to be kept in context. Larger scale vertical insertion is beyond their capabilities and they are not designed with aircraft maintenance in mind.

Brett.

 

[harryriedl]

Totally agree.

Sierra Leone would would have been a waste of an available CVF.

Not to mention that there will be significant periods of time where only one carrier is available and the ability to shift Helo Ops to an LPH is incredibly useful. Technically, you could even base MAS&C, ASW and SAR Helo's from the carrier to an LPH if you wanted to do a Falklands style campaign with only one carrier stuffed to the gills with F-35s.

The LPDs and LSDs need to be kept in context. Larger scale vertical insertion is beyond their capabilities and they are not designed with aircraft maintenance in mind.

Brett.

I Like cheap flat decks although at present the need is secondary to carrier strike and escorts and logistics as Ocean will last till at least 2020 and Ark could as last as long if it needs company. Argus is also available for something

 

[StingrayOZ]

JC1 style LHD would be interesting perhaps after Ocean is up for replacement.

1,200 troop capability. Useful heavy vechical sealift and amphibious landing.
6 helo spots, able to handle chinooks/v-22 easily. Massive hanger space (flex space shared with troops or vechicals).
Able to operate a small number of F-35B or UACV's.

Something to concider. Wouldn't cost a great deal.

 

[kev 99]

JC1 style LHD would be interesting perhaps after Ocean is up for replacement.

1,200 troop capability. Useful heavy vechical sealift and amphibious landing.
6 helo spots, able to handle chinooks/v-22 easily. Massive hanger space (flex space shared with troops or vechicals).
Able to operate a small number of F-35B or UACV's.

Something to concider. Wouldn't cost a great deal.

There are several people (me included) that have been saying the same for a while now, JC1 looks perfect, whether the money is there is another matter entirely.

 

[harryriedl]

There are several people (me included) that have been saying the same for a while now, JC1 looks perfect, whether the money is there is another matter entirely.

we won't really know till 2018 at the earliest if theirs the cash for an anglosied JC1 idealy 2 so 2 CVF's 2 LPH/LHD 2 LPD 4 LSD would be the ideal force structure. how much do they cost at present 600 million dollars? each Im thinking the of the cambarra class as they wouldn't include the R & D which would be in the JC1

 

[kev 99]

we won't really know till 2018 at the earliest if theirs the cash for an anglosied JC1 idealy 2 so 2 CVF's 2 LPH/LHD 2 LPD 4 LSD would be the ideal force structure. how much do they cost at present 600 million dollars? each Im thinking the of the cambarra class as they wouldn't include the R & D which would be in the JC1

Well its certainly true that we won't need to know until around 2018 but the trouble is after CVF we're running into other big procurement projects like FSC, MARS, JSF, escalation of commitment and funding to trident replacement and continued production of Astutes.

 

[harryriedl]

Well its certainly true that we won't need to know until around 2018 but the trouble is after CVF we're running into other big procurement projects like FSC, MARS, JSF, escalation of commitment and funding to trident replacement and continued production of Astutes.

CVF will be wrapped up by then but true about the rest though. MARS shouldn't be that expensive should it? and by then the majority of the JSFs should have been paid for FSC and Astute though should be a concern when dealing with LPH(R)

 

[kev 99]

CVF will be wrapped up by then but true about the rest though. MARS shouldn't be that expensive should it? and by then the majority of the JSFs should have been paid for FSC and Astute though should be a concern when dealing with LPH(R)

I would expect JSF buys will be deferred so I wouldn't bet on them all being done and dusted by 2018. MARS being expensive who knows? Since it got canned last year there doesn't seem to be much information about, I rather suspect whatever results won't be the full bells and whistles that the concept art appeared to be.

Ayyone know how much the Wave Class tankers cost?

 

[swerve]

There are several people (me included) that have been saying the same for a while now, JC1 looks perfect, whether the money is there is another matter entirely.

And me.

 

[kev 99]

And me.

I take your inclusion in the JC1 for RN lobby group as red

 

[StingrayOZ]

I would imagine if the UK wants to maintain a sustainable ship building industry something is going to have to be built.

The question is what? Subs, Destroyers, frigates, supply, amphibs?

I would imagine JC1's would be getting cheaper to build. I heard basic price is about 300 million euros, but what that includes, who knows? Wait for the first Canberra class to be built and look at the numbers and project then.

The Australian ones are going to be about a billion AUD each I think, but that includes a great deal of Australian fitout, Australian systems and system intergrations etc.