The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[harryriedl]

Most of the media commentators are idiots and have no real interest in telling the truth because they can't make a decent headline out of it.

You can't forget ignorance as well as none of the defense commentators know anything about what their talking about so that always impacts as well a petty political consideration.

None seem aware that you can't UOR a carrier and a airwing (for that matter escorts) while you can for the majority of Stan kit

 

[kev 99]

You can't forget ignorance as well as none of the defense commentators know anything about what their talking about so that always impacts as well a petty political consideration.

None seem aware that you can't UOR a carrier and a airwing (for that matter escorts) while you can for the majority of Stan kit

True but then Ignorance is bliss so they say................

ope

there's a really random selection of emoticons on here now..................

 

[Systems Adict]

Well most of the stuff in the public domain has stated the first will be ready by the end of the next decade, so that makes around five years to build.

I'm not convinced though.

Apparently C1 is due for main gate approval next year (or was it later this year........?)

Maybe SA could shed some light.................

Sorry Chaps..

I MAY work within the shipbuilding sphere in the UK, but I don't have the mobile numbers of any of the company directors & none of them are returning any of my calls... :nutkick


Joking aside, that sort of info isn't in the public domain, it's too much of a political hot potato just now. With the media on a frenzy, because some quoted fleet street hack is 'reporting' a company confidential document (read as stolen & sold to him, or possibly found by going thru the rubbish), then 'releasing' it to the BBC to have a field day with, DO YOU think ANYONE will step up to the plate to try & announce that they intend to spend MORE cash on weapons systems ??? :drunk1

The public opinion at the moment (if you belive all that the UK media is feeding us), is divided on the carrier issue, never mind wanting to cap, or even lower the defence budget for the whole armed forces & with an election being 'reported' to be imminent, NOTHING will happen before Xmas !

The fact that the info on the '15 year manufacturing deal' mentioned in THESE LINKS...
UK naval yards get 15-year jobs vow - Times Online
BVT Surface Fleet - Speech by Chief Executive of BVT Surface Fleet, Alan Johnston to the RUSI Future Maritime Operations Conference 2009
wasn't generally circulated till the hype about the possible closure of the Scottish yards as soon as the carriers are finished, means that the media are trying to stir up a story, where there isn't really anything great to report !

With many decisions being made between the shipbuilding Industry & the Govt / MoD, the joys of the credit crunch & how it's affecting Industry & the all too numerous 'scuttle-butt stories' about orders, mergers & sell-off's, the next 6 months will be anything but dull.....

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the UK populous should accept a '1 penny in the pound' tax increase, to ensure that the govt can fund our forces, while they are dealing with any on going situation....


SA

 

[Systems Adict]

interesting thing of late we seem to get the numbers of big ships but not the small ones we get 4 Bays, 2 Albions and two CVF but not 12 Type 45

Most of these decisions WRT ordering the Albions, the Bays & even T45 / CVF where 'made' by the previous Conservative Govt in the early to mid 90's.(SERIOUSLY !!)

Now that they've all came to fruition, been built & the budgets are being squeezed dry by the lack of funding & the drain on resources by fighting wars on 2 fronts, for 5 years, the UK govt has got to make the best of a bad lot.

Do they continue on in blind faith, hoping that the economy will pick up, or do they wait till the MoD review wot it actually needs for its shopping basket, before starting to procure & build any replacements for the smaller vessels.

Being reserved at this juncture would seem the prudent move....

SA

 

[outsider]

Sorry Chaps..
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the UK populous should accept a '1 penny in the pound' tax increase, to ensure that the govt can fund our forces, while they are dealing with any on going situation....
SA

What does that translate to, in terms of billions of pounds?

 

[Lopex]

What does that translate to, in terms of billions of pounds?

In 2009/10, the Treasury is expecting to take in £140.5 billion in gross income tax receipts so the extra pence in the pound would give you 1.4 billion more.

 

[Systems Adict]

In 2009/10, the Treasury is expecting to take in £140.5 billion in gross income tax receipts so the extra pence in the pound would give you 1.4 billion more.

...Roughly Translated, if you made £30k, you would actually be giving the tax man an additional £300, on top of the 22% they already take before you even see your wages.


Like you said Lopex, it's a fair hunk of 'Chump change'.....

SA

 

[outsider]

In 2009/10, the Treasury is expecting to take in £140.5 billion in gross income tax receipts so the extra pence in the pound would give you 1.4 billion more.

Its significantly more than £1.4 billion.

£140.5 billion Gross income tax receipts from a tax rate of 22% up to £30,000 and then 40% above that.

You've taken the gross income tax reciepts £140.5 billion and added 1% of this gross figure.

Whereas a penny added to the income tax rate actually translates into an approximately 3 to 4% increase in the amount of income tax you are paying, because its a penny increase added to 22% (i.e. approx. 1/22 increase rather than 1/100) as you've calculated.

Its more complicated because the gross income tax reciepts result from two tax bands 22% and 40%, but the increase in tax reciepts is likely to be several times £1.4 billion.

 

[kev 99]

1p in the pound to defence, well I'd go with that but I'm not the politicians are too keen!

Although I do suspect that there's more support for the armed forces amongst the UK populace than many in the media credit.

 

[windscorpion]

I think we're already too taxed already in this country, the defence budget could easily be increased by reducing money to things which arn't quite as necessary such as half the quangos, each with it's nice set of offices, landscaped entrances, fancy yet bland website and expensive logo.

 

[riksavage]

Worst case scenario could be more of Brown's Machiavellian scheming. He's finally figured out that we can't afford carrier strike, new helicopters and upgraded fighting vehicles desperately needed for the army. By cancelling the carrier programme and bringing forward FSC, all that steel purchased from Corus can be used, and Scottish shipyard jobs can be protected by drip feeding hulls over an extended period.

Now he's decided on a fundamental review of the Britain's security doctrine before next years election (another U-turn), big ticket items will be on the chopping block to allow funding for short-term fixes. With A-Stan still in full swing the Army will be the benefactor, followed by the RAF (helo's and strategic lift). The Navy will come off worse - good-bye carrier, good-bye Fleet Air Arm.

 

[outsider]

Worst case scenario could be more of Brown's Machiavellian scheming. He's finally figured out that we can't afford carrier strike, new helicopters and upgraded fighting vehicles desperately needed for the army. By cancelling the carrier programme and bringing forward FSC, all that steel purchased from Corus can be used, and Scottish shipyard jobs can be protected by drip feeding hulls over an extended period.

Now he's decided on a fundamental review of the Britain's security doctrine before next years election (another U-turn), big ticket items will be on the chopping block to allow funding for short-term fixes. With A-Stan still in full swing the Army will be the benefactor, followed by the RAF (helo's and strategic lift). The Navy will come off worse - good-bye carrier, good-bye Fleet Air Arm.

If they really want to protect shipyard jobs whilst not spending much money, they could churn out C2's (£200 million each) and C3's (£100 million each) instead. Thats assuming its possible to cancel the carriers without incurring big penalties, which it may not be.

Most likely, because of the £1 billion already spent on the carrier programme and the likely cancellation penalties, they'll probably end up building the first carrier (but at a slower pace, dealying its inservice date even further) and postpone building the second carrier indefinately.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

By cancelling the carrier programme and bringing forward FSC, all that steel purchased from Corus can be used, and Scottish shipyard jobs can be protected by drip feeding hulls over an extended period.

Bit hard to use steel that's already been cut into blocks - first steel for QE is to be cut tomorrow.

 

[harryriedl]

Bit hard to use steel that's already been cut into blocks - first steel for QE is to be cut tomorrow.

So this week means tomorrow the point of no return as long past for cancellation of the CVF. The final time was probably around mid 06 before main gate.

Rick you change your tune you used to be a big supporter of Carrier strike. The FSC doesn't have to be in service till the early 2020s so it doesn't need to be brought forward. Their is money issues but since it British construction primary its a very good shot in the arm which keeps many more employed in high value industries

 

[Systems Adict]

...By canceling the carrier programme and bringing forward FSC, all that steel purchased from Corus can be used, and Scottish shipyard jobs can be protected by drip feeding hulls over an extended period.

Eh ???

Wot planet are you from ??

For the AT LEAST the last 3 months, peeps have been arguing on here that the carriers have been for the chop & every time, they've been told the same thing...

NOT GONNA HAPPEN !

Some of the main parts (engines / gearboxes, etc) have got to be ordered YEARS in advance, so that they will be ready in time. As soon as they are it's a 95% certainty that the project will go ahead. Contracts have major penalty clauses in them, stating wonderful things that basically mean, you've ordered them, you'll take them. If you don't want them, they'll still be built, you'll still pay for them & we'll sell them to someone else & YOU won't get a penny !

Apart from that, these engines are a little TOO BIG to fit into FSC, so can we stop with this ridiculous idea that CVF won't happen.

...& as for the steel, well it comes in very large sheets (approx.10 feet wide, 30 feet long (so it fits onto the back of a lorry)), that are only cut when they are needed. Until the 'Official' cutting ceremony takes place tomorrow, the blocks won't start to be formed & the ship won't exist .

Then again, depending wot it's needed for, the steel comes in different thicknesses & make up (different quantities of the raw materials (iron ore, etc.), giving different strengths). You can pretty much guarantee that most of it wouldn't even be any use for FSC either !

However....

I'm only taking about the ships, the aircraft are a completely different kettle of fish.

PS, Here's a pic of the Yard where the sections will be built on the Clyde...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?utm_campaign=en_GB&utm_medium=lp&utm_source=en_GB-lp-emea-gb-gns-svn

 

[riksavage]

Eh ???

Wot planet are you from ??

For the AT LEAST the last 3 months, peeps have been arguing on here that the carriers have been for the chop & every time, they've been told the same thing...

NOT GONNA HAPPEN !

Some of the main parts (engines / gearboxes, etc) have got to be ordered YEARS in advance, so that they will be ready in time. As soon as they are it's a 95% certainty that the project will go ahead. Contracts have major penalty clauses in them, stating wonderful things that basically mean, you've ordered them, you'll take them. If you don't want them, they'll still be built, you'll still pay for them & we'll sell them to someone else & YOU won't get a penny !

Apart from that, these engines are a little TOO BIG to fit into FSC, so can we stop with this ridiculous idea that CVF won't happen.

...& as for the steel, well it comes in very large sheets (approx.10 feet wide, 30 feet long (so it fits onto the back of a lorry)), that are only cut when they are needed. Until the 'Official' cutting ceremony takes place tomorrow, the blocks won't start to be formed & the ship won't exist .

Then again, depending wot it's needed for, the steel comes in different thicknesses & make up (different quantities of the raw materials (iron ore, etc.), giving different strengths). You can pretty much guarantee that most of it wouldn't even be any use for FSC either !

However....

I'm only taking about the ships, the aircraft are a completely different kettle of fish.

PS, Here's a pic of the Yard where the sections will be built on the Clyde...
Google Maps

I know I may sound like a hypocrite, and don't get me wrong I want Carrier Strike more than anything else, because I'm a strong advocate of expeditionary warfare. However the current batch of politicians don't look further than next week and are under immense pressure to reduce the national debt. Both the Tories and Labour are looking to 90's Canada as an example, where the Liberal Government reduced the national debt to zero by cutting public spending by not 10%, but 15%. According to reports 3 out of the 6 big ticket defence spends will not now happen. We are already seeing a reduced FRES (fine by me), however we can't afford a one for one Trident replacement, F35B, Carrier's, Helo's, A400 and C1,2 &3.

According to latest press release:

"The Princess Royal will cut the steel for Britain's biggest new warship to mark the start of construction work.

She will perform the "steel cut" on the main hull of the ship, the first of two in the Queen Elizabeth class, at BVT Surface Fleet Ltd shipyard in Govan, Glasgow, which is one of a number of shipyards around the UK.

SNP MSP for Govan and Scotland's deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon will also attend the steel cutting."


There is a very interesting article in the Telegraph reference Russia's relative decline. This is further evidence to me that we in Western Europe need to re-balance our Navies to deal with the wider threat outside Europe. Having a joint expeditionary warfare capability able to deal with failed states East of Suez. This is why I hope Carrier Strike will happen.

Take away Russia's nuclear arsenal and, compared to Western Europe's combine military, they are a paper tiger. Over the next 20 - 30 years the military will shrink even further.

Summit cannot mask Russia's decline - Telegraph

 

[overlander]

Construction of new carreirs begins oficially.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | Manufacture of Royal Navy's new carriers begins

Very good news.

 

[overlander]

New stratetic defence review outlined.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | Strategic Defence Review outlined

I hope it doesn,t mean cuts in the armed forces, we will see.

 

[PeterCrisp]

Would it work if they cut the number of F35 (Plus spares) to 25 for each carrier then buy 25 (again for each plus spares) Lynx Wildcat's and 3 or 4 Chinook's and lastly use some of the Apache's?

That would make them kick arse land attack carriers and save a few quid at the same time maybe.

 

[StevoJH]

Would it work if they cut the number of F35 (Plus spares) to 25 for each carrier then buy 25 (again for each plus spares) Lynx Wildcat's and 3 or 4 Chinook's and lastly use some of the Apache's?

That would make them kick arse land attack carriers and save a few quid at the same time maybe.

The problem is that on top of the aircraft that would be assigned to each carrier, for 36 aircraft per carrier that is 72. Add in an OCU of say 24 aircraft and you are up to 96 aircraft in 6 active squadrons or 12 aircraft plus a 7th reserve squadron of 24 aircraft.

On top of these 96 aircraft, you then need to add attrition replacements and aircraft in deeper levels of maintenance. Aircraft crash occasionally (a tornado crashed the other day), plus thing go wrong with them, resulting in them having to be sent to higher levels of maintenance then present in normal squadron service, so you need aircraft to substitute for aircraft going into deeper maintenance.