Taiwan to build 3rd-generation warplane with Russia's help

[tphuang]

Now lets see ... Im not talking here about official weapons sales to Taiwan but unofficially why is it unimaginable for you to belive there is a chance Russia is helping Taiwan build some fighter throwout some gost company in the same way China is unofficially copy-pasting Russian (and others weapons but here we are not disscussing others) but officially it is not but developing whole new concepts based on their own brains that just happen to look alike ....

I think you missed the point here ....




Unlike US and EU ... Russia is self-sufficient and not depended on anyone ... it has land and energy and tehnological basis for all its citizens ...

up to this point, you have failed to grasp my posts thus far.

I dont agree with this completely ... cozz they are in this anti-US thing togeather and none of them stands a chance on its own .... so saying Russia needs China because otherwise it can not resist NATO etc expansion without China influence and money stands no ground ... both countries make use of BRIC and SCO for its own purpose and are growing, developing and challenging US influence but none of them is there just to suck otherones d....k ...

So saying Russia needs China money ... yes it needs everybodies money but still holds hudge reserves on its own ....

China on the other hand has trubelsome energy supply on witch it can not rely in case of war with Taiwan/US/India etc so NEEDS Russia as an alternative to its supply routes. etc etc ....

As I explained, the effect of China on Russian economy cannot be understated. It actually hasn't bought that much oil and gas from Russia, but if it decides to dramatically increase the strategic reserve at anytime, it would have far reaching effects on the value of Russian exports. Europeans basically have to pay more for Russian gas because of the "China effect". But that's just the energy aspect. The more important part when it comes to economy is what I mentioned in my blog entry. Again, I haven't wrote out the entire details, but you can read a lot of this online right now. A lot of articles surrounding this came out recently. It's not that hard to get a basic grasp of the issues.

China got licence to build 200 planes for 2.5 Bin ... witch is as same as they where given for free and still now complaines and etc ....

J-11 was its licence build plane ... J-11B is not but copy-paste Russian Su-27 with China subsystems on it ...

It's not China's fault that the Russians signed such a bad deal. btw, they would not have put in those su-30 orders if they didn't get the licensed production. And again, they didn't anticipate that China could localize the parts so fast, that their upgrades would not be accepted. Look at su-30mki, Russia is getting so much more money from that deal, because India couldn't achieve the 100% indigenization.

As for J-11B, that's the point right. It's still a Russian design, but using only Chinese parts. They were certainly allowed under the original agreement to have 100% localization. And they haven't reached the 200 unit mark, why shouldn't they keep on producing?

So you are admitting China copy-paste its weapons ... its good to have common ground and something to begin from ...

So you are giving me a reason for Russia acting as a jerk "as you or China see it" because they where not complaining until China decided to copy-paste its weapons and steel other ones 100% and because of it not making any money ... LOL

Do you think Russia is some kind of samaritan state so giving money and weapon for free is something natural expected from them so giving strange looks is justify when it demands payment for goods delivered.
Do you thing steeling is wrong???

I'm not say China is right in copying certain Russian systems, but that this has been going on for a long time and Russia never changed its Taiwan policies during those years, why do you think it would change now when its relationship with China in areas other than military export is better than ever?

 

[SkolZkiy]

Tphuang I understand you
you overestimate chineese influence on the world, as the most part in China and of course leaders of China. China signed the treaty for defending authors rights (stopping coppying Ru weapons) - it is and it was and it will be only a piece of paper for China and doesn't mean anything. So why do you that only WORDS of our president gave 100% guarantee of his honesty. China always speaks many things but often they don't about anything of that, they don't even about signed treaties - so why we should care?? I see no reason - if have some reasons to help Taiwan then we'll help.

 

[tphuang]

Tphuang I understand you
you overestimate chineese influence on the world, as the most part in China and of course leaders of China. China signed the treaty for defending authors rights (stopping coppying Ru weapons) - it is and it was and it will be only a piece of paper for China and doesn't mean anything. So why do you that only WORDS of our president gave 100% guarantee of his honesty. China always speaks many things but often they don't about anything of that, they don't even about signed treaties - so why we should care?? I see no reason - if have some reasons to help Taiwan then we'll help.

I'm not overestimating Chinese influence. You don't understand finance.

China hasn't signed that at all. If Russia doesn't want to export any future weapon systems to China because China didn't sign it, then let it be that. Don't make up stuff.

 

[SkolZkiy]

So it was lie that China have signed that treaty or you mean that it was not ratified?

 

[tphuang]

So it was lie that China have signed that treaty or you mean that it was not ratified?

according to a kanwa article that I read in April, Russia wishes that China would sign on to an intellectual property agreement and that they would give up all claims to previously contested issues like J-11B, although it's not known how they would feel about future variants of J-11s. I can't see China signing something like that though.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

well, I just posted my thoughts on this on my blog

I agree with some of the points you made in relation to why it is improbable Russia will make an overt sales to Taiwan and unlikely even to have direct military co-operation, I don't agree with a couple of secondary points.

Many countries do not sell weapons to Taiwan, but a few apart from the US do co-operate on military affairs. For example, BAE is British and supplying part of the new avionics package for the IDF upgrade.

China made a lot of rhetoric about the 2008 arms sales, yet the consequences were not that significant. It broke off military talks for a number of months before re-starting them. Maybe that's China's idea of putting its foot down, but I'm not sure it made that much of an impact in America.

The F-16 sale is not off the table. If anything it's on the table and being seriously considered.

 

[tphuang]

I agree with some of the points you made in relation to why it is improbable Russia will make an overt sales to Taiwan and unlikely even to have direct military co-operation, I don't agree with a couple of secondary points.

Many countries do not sell weapons to Taiwan, but a few apart from the US do co-operate on military affairs. For example, BAE is British and supplying part of the new avionics package for the IDF upgrade.

the BAE stuff just haven't popped onto China's radar yet. Believe me, if it's anything major, it wouldn't have slipped under the radar.

China made a lot of rhetoric about the 2008 arms sales, yet the consequences were not that significant. It broke off military talks for a number of months before re-starting them. Maybe that's China's idea of putting its foot down, but I'm not sure it made that much of an impact in America.

The F-16 sale is not off the table. If anything it's on the table and being seriously considered.

well, the 2008 sales was very defensive and shouldn't even have been protested if you think about it, but they still made a huge deal about it. I think US was caught off guard about China's reaction.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

the BAE stuff just haven't popped onto China's radar yet.

I think China will be aware of it - it was openly publicised.

well, the 2008 sales was very defensive and shouldn't even have been protested if you think about it, but they still made a huge deal about it. I think US was caught off guard about China's reaction.

I agree that China shouldn't have protested the 2008 sales, but it's too late now - it set a precedent. Next time it has to step things up or acknowledge that it won't do anything substantial (at least to the US - maybe to others).

However, the US did expect a reaction. Did they expect a suspension of military exchanges, etc I don't know.

 

[kay_man]

I think China will be aware of it - it was openly publicised.



I agree that China shouldn't have protested the 2008 sales, but it's too late now - it set a precedent. Next time it has to step things up or acknowledge that it won't do anything substantial (at least to the US - maybe to others).

However, the US did expect a reaction. Did they expect a suspension of military exchanges, etc I don't know.

i agree with the arguments put forward by musashi.
the 3rd generation aircraft may be an ofshoot of the Pak-fa project and the assistance may come from maybe India /Brazil etc.
like in the case of the Su-30 MKI and Su-30 MKM.
if im not wrong HAL still supplies some components for the MKM variant.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

A few points.

• While an overt military relationship with Taiwan is out of the question the Russians could have under the table input in my opinion. Lets remember the Sino-Russian military relationship is symbiotic, the Chinese need the Russians, just as the Russians need the Chinese.
• China has virtually no other choice but to buy US bonds, there is no other reliable game in town in terms of investing their currency reserves. If they don't buy treasury bonds are they just going to put it under the mattress? If they don't buy bonds the US economy recovers slower, Chinese exports are sluggish and it hurts both parties.
• Chinese economic input in Russia is minimal, its the EU that really matters.
• China would be hard pressed to make a huge international fuss without proof of Russian involvement. HUMINT wont do because you would compromise your assets.
• defeating a small power on your periphery DOES NOT make you a superpower. It shows your military is capable of very limited offensive operations, albeit poorly executed.