Gripen NG

[longbow]

You're right about that and from my perspective they were too aggressive on public opinion in Norway forcing the Norwegian Govt to publicly dismember their product.

It's absolutely okay to emphasize your own products strengths. What they (SAAB) and others are missing out is that they really have no place to comment on what the customer estimates the TCO to be. I could write a three page essay, but my posts are short and few, so I'll pick one example...

[...]

I'd wish SAAB moved on from the Norway competition and just let it go and focused on the future opportunities. Mostly because it provokes a myth that Gripen NG and Sweden was backstabbed by Norway...

I agree 100% and hope the marketing people stop before it gets to a level where they actually get a response!

 

[longbow]

Well I dont think it would be a problem to say "We fly more" or "We fly more with heavy payload" etc if that really was the reason for the higher cost estimate.

No, it would not hurt Norwegian intrests, but if all the agressive responses from Saab turns out to be false, it would put Saab at a disadvantage. As absurdly as it may seem, could the Norwegians actually want Saab to prosper??

But, thats just me speculating!!

 

[Vivendi]

I was wondering about the 1:6 to 1 -- anybody who can make a guess as to what that actually means? One SU-35 shot down for every 6 Gripen? Or perhaps an error, maybe they mean 1.6 to 1 (1.6 SU downed for every NG...

I am still wondering about this. Andipandi if I recall correctly you had previously some success in communicating with Saab -- would you mind asking them? (I once asked them a question and they never came back to me, don't know why)

Also would be interesting to know some details about the Gripen part of the sim (I would not touch the F-35 part, seems of little relevance)

V

 

[Feanor]

I wonder where the got the data on the Su-35BM (I'm assuming they don't mean the original Su-27M/Su-35) since the aircraft isn't even completed yet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well SAAB could be lying, but if the Norweigan cost estimates could be explained somehow, why havent they done it? SAAB claims that there are tens of billions the cant understand. If there were som hard facts to back the figures up, why havent the Norweigans published them???

When an evaluation has been completed the unsuccessful vendors are debriefed (if they request a debrief). They are NOT given actual details on where and by how much there was a variation against the superior product as that involves commercial and classified material issues. They are advised within the parameters of their own submission.

In the case of SAAB, they should pay attention to the Swedish Defence Ministers response in DefenceNews 2 weeks ago (I don't have my copy of the interview at my current location).

As far as the Defence Dept would be concerned, the tender is over and the results done. What SAAB should remember is the kind of approach they are taking with the Norwegians does not work. That approach backfired for the French with Rafale, and backfired for companies like ATLAS when they exercised the same kind of public behaviour.

There is no way in hades, that any of the specifics of the evaluation will be released, and SAAB know that full well, so they do themselves no favours by padding the public debate engagement as they know full well that the other side will not engage in a "too and fro" debate about the specifics. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm sure SAAB would have an immediate appreciation (and again, Rafale, ATLAS, LM in Czechoslovakia) are standout examples of what happens when companies overstep the robust debate to publicly defend their market footprint.

As someone who has been involved on both sides of the procurement and tender fences (for a couple of countries and as a consultant including aviation contracts) I can tell you that SAAB are not helping their position at all.

 

[B3LA]

As mentioned above, it is really time to move on now.
It will be exciting to have the F-35 so close to Sweden, and I hope we eventually will get the opportunity to see Norwegian F-35s performing live in Sweden. Preferable without live ammo though...
Saab knew the rules from the beginning. So did the Eurofighter Consortium.
Saab still tried to win a lost race by arguing the advantages to the Norwegian people.
To counter that the Norwegian Government had to discredit the Gripen in public.

Unfortunately, the outcome in Denmark will follow precisely in the same pattern.
The Gripen platform can not be sold to any of the old NATO nations, only to the poorer newcomers.
Saab should quit the Danish tender while they can and go for Former East, Latam and Apac nations instead.

 

[Vivendi]

OK this is not Gripen NG, rather the current Gripen, still, interesting read:

Gripen scores 31 kills


Kill ratio of 31-0 is not too bad.. Who said Gripen is not a lethal weapon, in particular in the hands of an experienced pilot?


V

 

[Grand Danois]

Hehe, RDAF chalked up Santa's reindeer.

Air force pays Santa for reindeer death - Weird news- msnbc.com

 

[IPA35]

Maybe it is because of the METEOR and it does not really matter what plane it is?

 

[swerve]

According to an article by Craig Hoyle in the current print edition of Flight, Gripen Demo has logged 79 flights so far, in just over a year, i.e. about as many as F-35 logged in the two years after first flight. Different degrees of risk, of course.

SAAB are bigging up the Selex radar, calling it "outstanding", & saying they're much more impressed than by the Thales offering. It's called the Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven (presumably the latter is the SAAB variant, with PS-05/A functionality, & the former the Selex base radar), & it is discussed as if the swash-plate version is the definitive one. It is stated that it has UK government export clearance.

Given the consistent naming of Vixen variants, this strongly suggests ca 1000 T/R modules.

 

[Grand Danois]

Given the consistent naming of Vixen variants, this strongly suggests ca 1000 T/R modules.

Well, 600 mm diameter x-band plate has a theoretical limit of 1256 modules with lambda/2 spacing (lambda = 3cm).

(PI * (0.3^2)) / (0.015^2) = 1 256.63706

So 1000-1100 mmics for a fully populated 600mm plate sounds on the mark.

 

[Grand Danois]

Maybe it is because of the METEOR and it does not really matter what plane it is?

Could be. IIRC both the CAPTOR and the PS-05/A are derivatives of the Blue Vixen back end which are to be/can be upgraded with the same MMICS from UMS and will use the same missile, METEOR, using the roughly the same intercept tactics* and subsequent defensive maneuvering after weapons release of which the moving swashplate radar face is an integral part.

*The EF2K flies faster, higher for better F-pole (and LSZ & NEZ).

 

[Grand Danois]

You can't have that, I can only tell you the mechanics of the calculation.

Edit: let's get some data points: RoNAF flew 10k hours last year on 57 active jets and DK flew 8k hrs on 48 active jet (both have in reality fewer jets, but hey). That's 175.5 and 167.7.

What does an avg Gripen fly per year?

Addendum: the actual number for RNoAF is 180-190 hrs/yr/F-16.

 

[Crusader2000]

Well, 600 mm diameter x-band plate has a theoretical limit of 1256 modules with lambda/2 spacing (lambda = 3cm).

(PI * (0.3^2)) / (0.015^2) = 1 256.63706

So 1000-1100 mmics for a fully populated 600mm plate sounds on the mark.

Yet, do we have a official source that states how many T/R Modules the Selex/SAAB Radar will have? As I've heard everything from 500 to 1200????

 

[Crusader2000]

Gripen NG Export Success???

What is the Gripen NG best odds of winning a export order??? (if any)

 

[Grand Danois]

What is the Gripen NG best odds of winning a export order??? (if any)

Well, define success and define Gripen NG.

The Gripen C/D is IMV the best bang for buck you can buy from a Western nation. The Swedish Air Force looks set to be lead customer on many of the technologies on future iterations of the Gripen concept with the E/F, particularly on the avionics side. . Tailoring the capabilities package to the customer instead of going full toe-to-toe with the JSF, trying to match it across the board, which makes it too expensive to the really cost-sensitive customer. And it's really tough to compete on capability with the JSF.

Perhaps letting the customer buy a basic package C/D package with selective focus with peak performance in some areas and with an option to add later developments is the way (?).

I'd suggest integrating Brimstone for interdiction/CAS and Meteor/Iris-T for air-air on the basic C/D package and you'd have a potential seller to many Central European NATO members. Meteor/Iris-T are already in pipeline and Brimstone, although complex to integrate, is doable without breaking the bank.

Basically what the Czechs/Hungarians will be doing. Then there are the Swiss, Croats, et al.of course, who are also looking at C/Ds.

It is possible Brazil or India may choose GNG. ToT and offsets are a great assets here; I wouldn't dismiss the GNG...

Perhaps it's a question of what it'll look like, more than if it gets orders.

And SAAB does have focus on the future with their deep participation in nEUROn.

 

[swerve]

It would be interesting to have some idea of the relative cost of the new radar (called Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven in the current issue of Flight - I presume the former is the base model, the latter the SAAB-Ericsson variant) & the current PS-05/A, both initial purchase cost & lifetime operating cost.

Brimstone is now available with a laser seeker, & seems to be the basis for the new "50 kg weapon" development.

 

[swerve]

Yet, do we have a official source that states how many T/R Modules the Selex/SAAB Radar will have? As I've heard everything from 500 to 1200????

I tried to track down the source of the 500 modules figure, & I am confident that 1) I've found it & 2) it's false.

It appears to be based on the assumption that the Vixen 500E will be used in Gripen. The 500 refers to the approximate number of T/R modules. Selex is absolutely explicit about this, & gives consistent names to the Vixen variants depending on TRM count, e.g. Vixen 850E. Therefore, the name is crucial to understanding the discussion. Unfortunately, references to the Vixen series are sometimes assumed to mean the 500E, the initial (& so far, only one in series production, about to enter service) model, as not everyone is aware of the existence of other models.

There are numerous references on the internet to the Vixen 500E being the basis for the new Gripen radar, but every one I have found which gives a source links back to this Defense Industry Daily article. That article gives as its source, & links directly to (scroll down to "Per Aviation Week’s March 10/09 report") this Aviation Week article - but when you read the AW article, you find that it doesn't say the Vixen 500E is the basis of the new Gripen radar. It discusses the Gripen radar and the Vixen 500E (& other Selex radars) in separate paragraphs, & different contexts. It is obvious that someone at DID misread the AW article, & as is common on the internet, the error proliferated via cutting & pasting. It's sad how few people check their sources.

The highest figures are based on estimates of how many can be fitted in, derived via calculations similar to GDs, above, which gives the theoretical maximum.

Neither Selex nor SAAB has ever linked the 500E to Gripen. They have never been shown together. Gripen has shared a stand at an airshow with the larger Vixen 850E, but that is the only link between that radar & Gripen. SAAB has released CGI of Gripen with a swash plate mounted array which looks a little larger than that of the 850E. None of this is definite, & I've not found a published statement from either firm which gives a figure, but we now have this article in Flight, in which a reputable journalist who has spoken to both SAAB & Selex says explicitly that the Vixen 1000E is the basis for the new radar.

That is consistent with all the good (as distinct from demonstrably false) previous information, & as far as I am concerned settles it. The number of TRMS is approximately 1000.

 

[Crusader2000]

I tried to track down the source of the 500 modules figure, & I am confident that 1) I've found it & 2) it's false.

It appears to be based on the assumption that the Vixen 500E will be used in Gripen. The 500 refers to the approximate number of T/R modules. Selex is absolutely explicit about this, & gives consistent names to the Vixen variants depending on TRM count, e.g. Vixen 850E. Therefore, the name is crucial to understanding the discussion. Unfortunately, references to the Vixen series are sometimes assumed to mean the 500E, the initial (& so far, only one in series production, about to enter service) model, as not everyone is aware of the existence of other models.

There are numerous references on the internet to the Vixen 500E being the basis for the new Gripen radar, but every one I have found which gives a source links back to this Defense Industry Daily article. That article gives as its source, & links directly to (scroll down to "Per Aviation Week’s March 10/09 report") this Aviation Week article - but when you read the AW article, you find that it doesn't say the Vixen 500E is the basis of the new Gripen radar. It discusses the Gripen radar and the Vixen 500E (& other Selex radars) in separate paragraphs, & different contexts. It is obvious that someone at DID misread the AW article, & as is common on the internet, the error proliferated via cutting & pasting. It's sad how few people check their sources.

The highest figures are based on estimates of how many can be fitted in, derived via calculations similar to GDs, above, which gives the theoretical maximum.

Neither Selex nor SAAB has ever linked the 500E to Gripen. They have never been shown together. Gripen has shared a stand at an airshow with the larger Vixen 850E, but that is the only link between that radar & Gripen. SAAB has released CGI of Gripen with a swash plate mounted array which looks a little larger than that of the 850E. None of this is definite, & I've not found a published statement from either firm which gives a figure, but we now have this article in Flight, in which a reputable journalist who has spoken to both SAAB & Selex says explicitly that the Vixen 1000E is the basis for the new radar.

That is consistent with all the good (as distinct from demonstrably false) previous information, & as far as I am concerned settles it. The number of TRMS is approximately 1000.

I never heard of the Vixen 1000E??? Is that the new name of the Gripen NG Radar or is it based on that Radar??? Also, do you have a direwct source that says the Gripen Radar does in fact have 1000 T/R Modules? If, so could you provide it??? Seems like alot for such a small aircraft???

 

[Crusader2000]

Well, define success and define Gripen NG.

The Gripen C/D is IMV the best bang for buck you can buy from a Western nation. The Swedish Air Force looks set to be lead customer on many of the technologies on future iterations of the Gripen concept with the E/F, particularly on the avionics side. . Tailoring the capabilities package to the customer instead of going full toe-to-toe with the JSF, trying to match it across the board, which makes it too expensive to the really cost-sensitive customer. And it's really tough to compete on capability with the JSF.

Perhaps letting the customer buy a basic package C/D package with selective focus with peak performance in some areas and with an option to add later developments is the way (?).

I'd suggest integrating Brimstone for interdiction/CAS and Meteor/Iris-T for air-air on the basic C/D package and you'd have a potential seller to many Central European NATO members. Meteor/Iris-T are already in pipeline and Brimstone, although complex to integrate, is doable without breaking the bank.

Basically what the Czechs/Hungarians will be doing. Then there are the Swiss, Croats, et al.of course, who are also looking at C/Ds.

It is possible Brazil or India may choose GNG. ToT and offsets are a great assets here; I wouldn't dismiss the GNG...

Perhaps it's a question of what it'll look like, more than if it gets orders.

And SAAB does have focus on the future with their deep participation in nEUROn.

I would define success as winning an export ORDER! Hopefully, with some reasonable numbers to boot........